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BREAKING (!): Judge rules the House is entitled to Mueller grand jury material. Huge win (Original Post) kpete Oct 2019 OP
GREAT news klook Oct 2019 #1
K & R! Iliyah Oct 2019 #2
Good news, but the appeals process will take a great deal of time. MineralMan Oct 2019 #3
Exactly. And the stacking of the courts doesn't help Roland99 Oct 2019 #6
So will Robert's go down in the history of HIS court siding with the conservatives...... usaf-vet Oct 2019 #22
Wish I knew the legal details Roland99 Oct 2019 #42
imo a lot of the redacted material is related to hiding the use of talk radio by russians and certainot Oct 2019 #26
Not necessarily. The Nixon tapes case was handled very quickly, The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2019 #27
Hello Botany Oct 2019 #4
On my Birthday. tavernier Oct 2019 #30
Now Barr says 'No' and then what? superpatriotman Oct 2019 #5
Then he gets impeached. dchill Oct 2019 #17
When what we considered unthinkable has already happened Qutzupalotl Oct 2019 #31
I guess there's hope in there, somewhere. dchill Oct 2019 #34
Judge Howell can find him in contempt and order him jailed StarfishSaver Oct 2019 #37
More kpete Oct 2019 #7
Barr will almost surely appeal this. triron Oct 2019 #8
The Supreme Court will kill it. Patterson Oct 2019 #9
You kind of hope that most of the R's in the SCOTUS are old school traditional R's LiberalLovinLug Oct 2019 #12
Roberts? You mean the guy who engineered Citizens United and gutted the Voting Rights Act? markpkessinger Oct 2019 #29
Doubtful. Even Kavanaugh and Gorsuch aren't Trumpists; they're Scalia clones, The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2019 #28
Dontcha love how the people who insisted the Dems start impeachment immediately because StarfishSaver Oct 2019 #38
Barr will almost certainly appeal, but the DOJ's position is really weak. The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2019 #40
+1 StarfishSaver Oct 2019 #41
KnR Hekate Oct 2019 #10
Your move Barr lame54 Oct 2019 #11
And if Barr says..."meh...I'm still not going to let you have it" LiberalLovinLug Oct 2019 #13
He'll likely go to jail. StarfishSaver Oct 2019 #39
Since she hammered the DoJ that impeachment is a judicial process Jarqui Oct 2019 #14
Boy, if Trump and Barr are working so hard to prevent anyone from seeing this... Kablooie Oct 2019 #15
K&R ffr Oct 2019 #16
Is this significant? The request is granted to Doug Collins, HJC ranking member...a republican. Karadeniz Oct 2019 #18
I doubt it. Doug Collins was in my town yesterday with Donald Jr. Mr. Ected Oct 2019 #20
The way I read it blaze Oct 2019 #21
Thank you both for clearing this up. I knew I should question that fleeting moment of optimism! Karadeniz Oct 2019 #32
Tweetshitstorm in 3.... 2.... orangecrush Oct 2019 #19
AND the House doesn't need a vote to begin an impeachment inquiry: dalton99a Oct 2019 #23
Thanks for the paragraphs ...... they look to be right out of Judge's Opinion. MFGsunny Oct 2019 #33
The pdf is at: dalton99a Oct 2019 #35
Much obliged! n/t MFGsunny Oct 2019 #36
Chairman @RepJerryNadler released the following statement Gothmog Oct 2019 #24
+1 dalton99a Oct 2019 #25

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
3. Good news, but the appeals process will take a great deal of time.
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 03:27 PM
Oct 2019

Meanwhile, the materials will not be forthcoming.

usaf-vet

(6,189 posts)
22. So will Robert's go down in the history of HIS court siding with the conservatives......
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 05:51 PM
Oct 2019

or will he look to his legacy and uphold the lower court ruling?

I'm no attorney but I seem to remember that I read there is some standard regarding access to Grand Jury materials for Congressional Committees. Am I mistaking? And under normal circumstances, the congressional committee would already have had it.

The delay has been because Trump and Barr have something to hide?

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
26. imo a lot of the redacted material is related to hiding the use of talk radio by russians and
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 06:01 PM
Oct 2019

democrats can find a lot off that out merely by suggesting it.

for eg asking sam nunberg details about his comment (new york mag 4/3/16) that he "listened to 1000s of hours of talk radio" in 2014, the same year a russian troll said they "got lists of topics to write about". for eg did he listen to it from the same states the indicted russians went to? why is "hannity" completely redacted in the glossary even tho he should be there between graf and hawker? corsi and stone and manafort are long time talk radio 'operators' - were they only there re wikileaks? they weren't social media geeks. corsi has been a tool a long time- feeding swiftboating, benghazi, and ebola bullshit for years - why wouldn't the russians feed him too?

there's a lot of evidence the russians have been using talk radio since at least 2008 - democrats need to start mentioning it to get media checking this stuff out, instead of blaming talk radio's little sister fox for everything. when republicans finally see trump's enforcer limnbaugh on the ropes they'll be a lot more ready to turn on trump.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,732 posts)
27. Not necessarily. The Nixon tapes case was handled very quickly,
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 06:05 PM
Oct 2019

in only about 3 months, start to finish. It's possible to take a direct appeal to the Supreme Court, which is what Jaworski did. The court issued its decision only three weeks after the oral arguments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Nixon

Botany

(70,516 posts)
4. Hello
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 03:32 PM
Oct 2019

Ordered that, that by October, 30, 2019, DOJ must disclose to the HJC: 1) All portions of Special Counsel Robert
S Mueller III's Report on the investigations into Russian Interference In the 2016 Presidential Election
(The Mueller Report).


triron

(22,006 posts)
8. Barr will almost surely appeal this.
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 04:08 PM
Oct 2019

So where would it go then? Could the judge have declared it wasn't appealable?

LiberalLovinLug

(14,174 posts)
12. You kind of hope that most of the R's in the SCOTUS are old school traditional R's
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 04:42 PM
Oct 2019

Like those represented by the Never Trumpers. No faith in Kavanaugh or Thomas, but perhaps Roberts will do the right thing like he did with the Obamacare is legal ruling.

markpkessinger

(8,401 posts)
29. Roberts? You mean the guy who engineered Citizens United and gutted the Voting Rights Act?
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 06:24 PM
Oct 2019

Surely you jest!

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,732 posts)
28. Doubtful. Even Kavanaugh and Gorsuch aren't Trumpists; they're Scalia clones,
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 06:18 PM
Oct 2019

that is to say, Constitutional originalists. If you're one of those, you're going to stick to the text of the Constitution and established precedent, according to which Trump loses.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
38. Dontcha love how the people who insisted the Dems start impeachment immediately because
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 08:10 PM
Oct 2019

"they'll get the grand jury material," now that a court has ordered DOJ to turn over the materials are saying "Whomp, whomp... It doesn't matter ... Whomp whomp ... Barr won't comply ... Whomp whomp ... the Supreme Court is corrupt ... Whomp whomp."

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,732 posts)
40. Barr will almost certainly appeal, but the DOJ's position is really weak.
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 08:24 PM
Oct 2019

Sooner or later I expect that the Supreme Court will rule against Trump, notwithstanding the 5-4 conservative majority. Like I said before, conservative doesn't mean Trumpist. Congressional GOPers stick with Trump because they're afraid their nutball base won't re-elect them, but Supreme Court justices don't have that problem; they can't be fired and they don't owe Trump anything. A genuinely conservative justice is just as likely to rule against Trump in these subpoena cases as a liberal one.

Jarqui

(10,126 posts)
14. Since she hammered the DoJ that impeachment is a judicial process
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 04:48 PM
Oct 2019

overseen by the chief justice and that they do not need to vote to start impeachment investigations, I think it is a really uphill battle for Trump & the DoJ.

They are asking the Judiciary to hive up their part in impeachment.

And they are trying to curtail the oversight of Congress.

If the DoJ were to prevail, the Constitution is badly broken because the Judiciary and Congress would have to give way to the Executive Branch and that usurps their ability to hold the executive branch to account - contrary to what the founders wanted.

the DoJ will drag it out to buy time but I doubt the Supreme Court is going to hand power to the Executive branch

Kablooie

(18,634 posts)
15. Boy, if Trump and Barr are working so hard to prevent anyone from seeing this...
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 04:50 PM
Oct 2019

there must be some pretty damning info in it.

Karadeniz

(22,535 posts)
18. Is this significant? The request is granted to Doug Collins, HJC ranking member...a republican.
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 05:33 PM
Oct 2019

Does this reflect some bipartisanship on this committee? I read that Collins is currently a military chaplain. Perhaps there is some respect for truth and integrity in the GOP!

Aside from this...I noticed Jim Jordan and Mark meadows at the Cummings funeral. They were relaxed and laughing at some light moment, just like normal human beings. If only we could see this side of them inside Congress instead of their rabid side.

Mr. Ected

(9,670 posts)
20. I doubt it. Doug Collins was in my town yesterday with Donald Jr.
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 05:42 PM
Oct 2019

Bi-partisan is not in his vocabulary.

blaze

(6,362 posts)
21. The way I read it
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 05:44 PM
Oct 2019

There are memos and documents included.... including documents supplied by Doug Collins.

dalton99a

(81,515 posts)
23. AND the House doesn't need a vote to begin an impeachment inquiry:
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 05:55 PM
Oct 2019
Even in cases of presidential impeachment, a House resolution has never, in fact, been required to begin an impeachment inquiry. In the case of President Johnson, a resolution “authoriz[ing]” HJC “to inquire into the official conduct of Andrew Johnson” was passed after HJC “was already considering the subject.” 3 Hinds Ch. 75 § 2400. In the case of President Nixon, HJC started its investigation well before the House passed a resolution authorizing an impeachment inquiry. See 3 Deschler Ch. 14, § 15 (Parliamentarian’s Note) (noting that even before “the adoption of” the Nixon impeachment-inquiry resolution, “House Resolution 803,” HJC “had been conducting an investigation into the charges of impeachment against President Nixon,” such as by “hir[ing] special counsel for the impeachment inquiry”).35 In the case of President Clinton, the D.C. Circuit authorized the disclosure of grand jury materials to Congress on July 7, 1998, see HJC App., Ex. Q, Order, In re Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan Assoc., Div. No. 94-1 (D.C. Cir. Spec. Div. July 7, 1998) (per curiam), ECF No. 1-18, even though no impeachment resolution had yet been adopted and was not adopted by the House until four months later, see H. R. Res. 525, 105th Cong. (1998) (authorizing, on October 8, 1998, HJC to “investigate fully and completely whether sufficient grounds exist for the House of Representatives to exercise its constitutional power to impeach” President Clinton).36

While close scrutiny of the historical record undercuts that justification for the “House resolution” test proposed by Representative Collins, the more significant flaw with this proposal is as follows: while this test may address political legitimacy concerns, which are best resolved in the political arena, no governing law requires this test—not the Constitution, not House Rules, and not Rule 6(e), and so imposing this test would be an impermissible intrusion on the House’s constitutional authority both to “determine the rules of its proceedings” under the Rulemaking Clause, U.S. CONST., Art. I, § 5, cl. 2, and to exercise “the sole power of Impeachment” under the Impeachment Clause, id. § 2, cl. 5. This Court “ha[s] no authority to impose,” by judicial order, a particular structure on House proceedings. Mazars, 2019 WL 5089748, at *24. In Mazars, for example, the D.C. Circuit rejected the position that enforcement of a House Oversight and Reform Committee subpoena of a third-party’s records related to President Trump and his business associates was inappropriate until the “full House” granted the Committee “express authority to subpoena the President for his personal financial records.” Id. at *24 (internal quotation marks omitted). Citing the Constitution’s Rulemaking Clause, the D.C. Circuit explained that “unless and until Congress adopts a rule that offends the Constitution, the courts get no vote in how each chamber chooses to run its internal affairs.” Id.; see also Barker v. Conroy, 921 F.3d 1118, 1130 (D.C. Cir. 2019) (noting that “‘making the Rules . . . [is] a power that the Rulemaking Clause reserves to each House alone’” (quoting United States v. Rostenkowski, 59 F.3d 1291, 1306–07 (D.C. Cir. 1995)). This Court likewise lacks authority to require the House to pass a resolution tasking a committee with conducting an impeachment inquiry.

Representative Collins shifts gears with an alternative challenge to HJC’s petition, contending that, even if no House rule prohibits HJC from beginning an impeachment investigation without a House resolution, the House has not “delegate[d] such authority to the Committee,” and HJC has no powers except those expressly granted to it. Collins Mem. at 6. Pressing this point, he argues that the House has thus far delegated only “legislative and oversight authority to the Committee,” not “impeachment authority,” id. at 5, and, further, that the Speaker of the House may not “unilaterally delegate to the Committee the House’s impeachment power,” id. at 13–14. These contentions are, at worst, red herrings and, at best, incorrect.

At the outset, the distinction drawn by Representative Collins between Congress’s “legislative and oversight authority” and Congress’s “impeachment authority,” is not so rigid as he makes out. Nothing “in the Constitution or case law . . . compels Congress to abandon its legislative role at the first scent of potential illegality and confine itself exclusively to the impeachment process.” Mazars, 2019 WL 5089748, at *18.37 In any event, the House has sufficiently delegated to HJC the authority to conduct an impeachment inquiry in at least two ways. Jefferson’s Manual—which under House Rule XXI “‘govern[s] the House in all cases to which [it is] applicable and in which [it is] not inconsistent with the Rules and orders of the House’”—provides that impeachment can be “set[] . . . in motion” by “a resolution introduced by a Member and referred to a committee” as well as “facts developed and reported by an investigating committee of the House.” Jefferson’s Manual § 603.38 Additionally, the full House has authorized, in Resolution 430, HJC to bring this suit and simultaneously granted HJC “any and all necessary authority under Article I of the Constitution.” H.R. Res. 430, 116th Cong. (as passed by House June 11, 2019) (emphases added).39

As to Representative Collins’ last point regarding the Speaker’s statement, HJC never claims that the Speaker possesses the power to authorize an impeachment inquiry solely by saying so. Rather, HJC points to the Speaker’s statement as evidence of the primary purpose of HJC’s investigation. The Speaker’s statement is, in fact, highly probative evidence on that score.40 Even DOJ does not dispute that statements made by the House Speaker may be probative in evaluating the “primary purpose” of HJC inquiries, as DOJ too has relied on the Speaker’s statements in its arguments about satisfaction of the “preliminarily to” requirement. See DOJ Resp. at 3, 26–27.

MFGsunny

(2,356 posts)
33. Thanks for the paragraphs ...... they look to be right out of Judge's Opinion.
Fri Oct 25, 2019, 07:30 PM
Oct 2019

Would you be kind enough to post a link to it, if you can? I'd like to read the whole thing.

Thanks in advance.

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