General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMy technique when debating a trumper
is to dive deeper into their premise.
Example:
Guy at work two weeks ago tells me he's voting for trump. I ask him why. "Economy," he say's. "What else?" I ask. Crickets. He has no idea (Cognitive dissonance breakthrough #1.)
I ask if he's seen trumps bullying/name calling. He has. I ask if it's appropriate for an adult to behave that way. His response; "Well, Obama..." "Stop;" I say, "You're shifting the focus." I ask again; "Well, Hillary..." "Stop;" I say, "You're shifting the focus again" (whataboutism). Finally after pinning him down and forcing him to answer the question, he admits name calling/bullying is wrong and it is inappropriate for an adult to behave that way (Cognitive dissonance breakthrough #2.)
Does he still support him? Absolutely. He (and millions of others) suffer from a fear-induced psychosocial disorder.
I calmly use cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) techniques with these folks and my desire is that upon refection (if reflection comes at all) my friend will admit to himself his support is based primarily on fear and his thinking is irrational, illogical and absurd.
I don't expect immediate results. It's like working with addicts - it is either a growing realization that changes minds or a catastrophe (think "hitting bottom" for alcoholics.) His journey out of fear is his own. My yelling at him would do nothing. All I can do is hopefully help him break through his cognitive dissonance.
LonePirate
(13,429 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 3, 2019, 11:57 AM - Edit history (1)
You should have called out the lie up front because if it was truly the economy that mattered, he would have voted for Clinton to continue the Obama economy.
SummerSnow
(12,608 posts)bitterross
(4,066 posts)People will say it's the economy but they haven't the foggiest clue as to how they have actually been impacted by Trump's economy. They've forgotten the higher bill they had in April of this year already. There has been too much other junk pushed out by FOX and other media since then.
What they can see is his racism and bigotry. They can see him making sure he keeps those "uppity n-word" down and that he's making sure those greedy "illegals" are not getting their jobs and benefits. Not that these people are working any jobs or getting any benefits the undocumented people would work or get in the first place.
What they like is his outright hostility. It mirrors their anger for things over which they have no control. It's an outlet for them. He gives them direction on where to spend that anger and energy. It's at all the wrong people, but they love it anyway because they are so low-information.
The Wizard
(12,546 posts)with a professional. The cognitive dissonance, it burns itself into the unconscious like a branding iron would.
safeinOhio
(32,713 posts)Ignore bad behavior and praise good behavior. Works with pets, children and trumpers. All of which are seeking attention.
Redleg
(5,821 posts)is that while we may ignore the bad behavior, others will likely reinforce the behavior, thus no extinction of the behavior.
Winning an argument with a wing-nut is one thing, but changing the voting behavior is an entirely different beast. How can you overcome the constant and overwhelming disinformation these wingers get from their fellow travelers and from Faux News?
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,873 posts)Too often they're allowed to go on with the "Well, Obama..." or "Well, Hillary..."
gulliver
(13,186 posts)RichardRay
(2,611 posts)NLP Basics
Newest Reality
(12,712 posts)...and be able to create and break rapport at will, make and break states, etc.
I have often enjoyed the occasional and well-timed/paced "How do you know that?" said with sincere curiosity. I have seen people break state suddenly and look completely bit awestruck, which is a program exit, often. Using "how" is, of course, process over content.
NLP is a diverse bag of tools and the collection is growing.
intrepidity
(7,331 posts)I need more tools for such discussions, do you have a handy link with relevent examples? I'm at my wit's end. Thanks.
I use the "false premise" and strawman objections, although usually they just get louder after that.
Walking away not an option, unfortunately.
RichardRay
(2,611 posts)NLP oversold itself badly during its heyday. It grouped in width est, Tony Robbins, and workshop like Life-spring. Its not the panacea its over-enthusiastic supporters sometime claim, and it *does* provide a useful framework and some effective communications techniques.
See
https://www.nlp-techniques.org/what-is-nlp/
evilhime
(326 posts)I have a good friend, a very intelligent (in all other ways) person who when politics comes up and I start pointing out things like that I get responses like "you are more researched than I am, I cannot argue with you so we agree to disagree." Say what? <le sigh>
Duppers
(28,125 posts)And logic?
samplegirl
(11,488 posts)No I dont agree to disagree.
bmpbmp
(310 posts)they just want to be right. Even if it's wrong. Alternative facts.
If they have no basis (which they don't), despite that they'll argue the sun doesn't set in the west, in fact the sun doesn't set at all. Their whole point is not to agree with you, because you're not one of them. Remember cooties in grade school? We got'em and they don't want'em. Anything that's based on critical thinking, science, or logic they don't want being forced into their brain.
I honestly tried to reason, to change a few of them. The lesson I learned is they're gonna be the way they're gonna be. The only way they're going to change is if they get sick of being the way they are. That's the only way.
In the meantime, America is stuck with 30-40% of its citizens being completely disconnected with reality and truth. And that's gonna continue to fuck up this country for decades to come.
Farmer-Rick
(10,197 posts)But you have them thinking and anyone else listening will think too.
It's a technique that Matt Dillahunty on the Aithiest Experience uses a lot on thiest apologists. It doesn't change their mind when they realize the Christian god supports slavery, it just makes them think and makes others watching the show think too.
Keep it up, maybe we get you a call-in show called the Liberal Experince.
Comatose Sphagetti
(836 posts)MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)I refuse to give it to them. Its amazing how getting them to realize that very things also gets them to leave me alone.
Delmette2.0
(4,168 posts)I was sitting at a kiosk ordering pictures from my son's wedding. A total stranger stopped behind me, said "hi, how ya doing?" I said "just fine". He then said" Did you know Obama is taking away our civil liberties?" I acted surprised and asked "Oh, which ones?" He had a blank look on his face and walked away. These folks have been around for a long time. Some have figured out to STFU others haven't.
I still wish he had stuck around to talk more.
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,494 posts)........
Obama was threatening his liberty to be racist......
Delmette2.0
(4,168 posts)KY_EnviroGuy
(14,494 posts)My personality type does not do high speed verbal encounters well, so I don't bother arguing with them.
We had one at our door today campaigning and we just shooed him away. Wanted to start a discussion about sanctuary cities without recognition that America was in essence built by refugees and migrants.
KY........
Delmette2.0
(4,168 posts)This time of year no one wants to canvass door to door.
andym
(5,445 posts)And that won't happen while they are allowed to spew. Taking Facebook out of the equation would be big if it happened, but there still would be Fox, Rush etc. You are face a uphill battle, but it's worth trying.
Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)Fox to change. I dont know how but Fox and Murdoch are the villains of our time.
Scotch-Irish
(464 posts)It's simple. In the 1990's rush limpballs started pounding racism and hate into their brains and creating the cult experience, Ann Coultergeist backed it up, and Fox "news" keeps the programming going.
SWBTATTReg
(22,156 posts)going to screw up big time w/ his so called supporters...something is going to slip out, about how he truly feels about these supporters, and then the game will be over with. If you want to see cratering, just wait until he opens his mouth once too many times the wrong way, and bam!
Hey, w/ the way he's cratering the economy with his stupid mouth and so called tax cuts for all (it's really for the 1%ers, not us)...it won't take too much longer...just a matter of time.
Arthur_Frain
(1,855 posts)
I calmly use cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) techniques with these folks....
Um, you make it sound like youve got them on the couch.
my friend will admit to himself his.......
Yeah, this never happens either.
MY experiences with supporters of trump have been very, very different. These people have been groomed for years, CS, years. Theyve been listening to right wing radio, clicking on the feeder ads online, watching Fox News. All of those sources have resourced decades of research on human psychology, and neither you nor me is going to undo in a 15 minute conversation in the Starbucks what a decade or more of conditioning have set in goddamn stone.
At worst, the debate deteriorates into ad hominem or worse, at best, I can generally tell by the set of their jaw, that I will be the subject of mirth at the next chumper get together they attend.
Comatose Sphagetti
(836 posts)CBT doesn't always work, and it takes time. But I find it gets better results than the "fuck it" technique.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)In 15 min. And you are right, they've been programmed for years.
I am very curious about techniques to change their minds though. I think Beto's was effective when he was running for Senate. He figured out what appealed to Texans universally and played on that. He didn't belittle. For instance, he would go into little towns and say..."you know what bothers me? That Texas is ranked so low in education." No finger pointing or blame. "We are people who can do anything, right? Why can't we concentrate on getting so our great state is number one? " Appeal to pride.
KentuckyWoman
(6,690 posts)We can agree Trump has a big personality.
In all cases I find out what their big reason is to support Trump. What issue/s, and make it about the issue FIRST. Then we see how Trump matches it. I am giving THEM an opportunity to win me over. If I get "well Obama" or "well Hillary" I explain they aren't running. This is what we have to choose from, and if Trump doesn't fit the leadership need we have right now ... what other of the candidates available better fits the issues they hold dear.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)at.least in trying to reason with them.
Comatose Sphagetti
(836 posts)live love laugh
(13,124 posts)At this point I see them as hopeless. They can fuck off and I tell them so at every opportunity I get.
NCLefty
(3,678 posts):p
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)The steps between your getting him to admit that he doesn't like name calling and the "fear" ??
Comatose Sphagetti
(836 posts)justification, denial, etc. as an avoidance method (he doesn't see this.)
For him to be wrong about trump would affect his ego; his sense of self. It would make him question his values, his ideology, the like-minded around him - including authority figures, community, church, and cherished loved ones. He doesn't want to go there. That's where the fear comes in (again, he doesn't see this.)
CBT breaks through the rationalization, minimization, etc., and forces people to confront psychological inconsistencies. For my friend to admit that trump's behavior is unacceptable is a small crack in the delusion that trump is the savior he believes him to be. That small crack can sometimes lead to a flood of critical thinking and self awareness.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Take these concepts and apply them to their speeches and interviews to attract trump voters
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,494 posts)the "thing" is that which causes the fear.
Works well in religion, some drugs and politics.......
Comatose Sphagetti
(836 posts)Proud Liberal Dem
(24,426 posts)It just occurred to me too that if they start with the "whataboutism", they've already conceded the argument and admitting that Trump is in the wrong. The "whataboutism" is really about justifying their ongoing support of Trump IN SPITE OF his behavior by making it seem that since Obama did "it" or Hillary did "it", it's ok for Trump to do it- essentially normalizing whatever they're trying to justify. And oftentimes, they're trying to compare apples to oranges.
Comatose Sphagetti
(836 posts)lunatica
(53,410 posts)and it helps Trump when he charges the taxpayers for all his golfing trips. And for the building of the minuscule amount of the wall. They have to offset the tax giveaways to his rich friends.