I wouldn't say not-jay walking is patriotism. Or placing the proper stamp on a letter. It's just following the law.

We have to have taxes to pay for nice things. People won't voluntarily pay (not enough anyway) so they must be forced to do so. It makes sense to tax as many people as much as possible with those having the most paying the most. You don't have to like it but accept that if you want roads and a functioning economy and educated citizenry and so on that's what has to happen.

Those taxes pay for the things you mentioned, and keep our country working properly.

Wanting our country to succeed is patriotic. Wanting it to go bankrupt, as these starve-the-beasters do, is unpatriotic.

If it were there'd be no reason to punish tax-evaders.

The incentive to pay is that if you don't you go to jail.

That doesn't make one patriotic. Signing up for a war to defend your country is patriotic (or can be). This is more like being drafted and serving because if you don't you'll go to jail.

Coerced patriotism isn't.


/if we were talking about voluntarily paying more then you'd have a point.

I served in our military. By your definition I am patriotic.

You defend the notion that paying taxes has nothing to do with patriotism. This speaks of your mind set more then mine.


So you want something for nothing? You believe we collectively pay to stop your house from burning down or convict a killer and incarcerate him and the only reason we do so is that we are forced to pay for it by law. Or do you believe those services are unnecessary?

If basic government services were not provided, and our world was in chaos, you would be the first in line to call it our patriotic duty to restore order and pay for it with taxes. If not, then you would not be considered a credible contributer toward a greater society. You would be considered unpatriotic.

that I have ever seen.

It seems to me if people have to be coerced to do anything and everything they can for the country they love, they are being unpatriotic. We are blessed with free expression, a high standard of living and the occasional opportunity. It's worth preserving, protecting and defending.

But people have been whipped up by demagogues saying "It's your money, the government is stealing," instead of "What price can you put on freedom?"

Those who would starve the beast are the worst kind of traitor.

We're good at seeing immediate and local benefits of our collective actions. So families can cooperate to clean out the house. Stuff like that.

But for the long term and nationally? Nothing in our evolution geared us to think about time in terms of centuries and people in terms of hundreds of millions (99.9% of whom we'll never meet).

That's just not something that is natural for us. Which is why it took so long for large nation states and national pride to develop and we've always required tax collectors and some means of punishment to acquire taxes.

If the IRS were to say today that they would like people to continue paying their same rates but that enforcement will be stopped what do you suppose that would do to tax revenue?

Whether or not you will pay without being forced does not change the facts of why taxes are collected. Nor does the penalty of tax evasion mean that those who pay their taxes honestly are not being patriotic. Indeed, that patriotism discourages many people from engaging in questionable tax evasion schemes, regardless of penalties. Those who would improve our tax code to pay down the debt and benefit the poor, the veterans, first responders and teachers are definitely patriotic, because they want our country as a whole to succeed. This is not simple self-interest, but the interest of the collective, and that includes strangers.

For thousands of years, humans have had to defend our families from predators and their communities from invaders. When it's us vs. them, the us always takes precedence, whether we know everyone on our side or not. There is no better example of this than those who volunteer to serve in our military. Are they simply fighting for their home towns? Do the people who admire them think so?

A big disconnect occurred in the Bush wars: instead of a shared sacrifice in the form of a war tax, which would have driven home the point that freedom isn't free, we got a magic fairy dust tax cut that exploded the deficit, with the true costs of war passed on to the next administration.

Wanting your country to starve is unpatriotic. Doing your part to keep it from starving is a patriotic duty. If people are ignorant of that, then shame on our media and politicians for not explaining it.

If anyone says the problem the government has is revenue it collects and not over spending.
I have some ocean front property to sell you in Kansas.

I happen to think, and believe there are plenty of facts to back me up, that the "overspending" meme is a RW propaganda product.

At the very least, this supposed 'overspending' would be much less of a problem if millionaires and billionaires paid at least as much as you and I and the rest of our middle class brethren, wouldn't you agree?

Needles pork barrel spending unless it DIRECTLY helps people in need.
Not some wild goose chase to save a turtle or what ever.......
Sorry I love the environment but I care more about a child that has to receive a free lunch at school because his mom doesn't have enough food at home.

yeah, that'll save us a big 1.5% of the budget



take the test http://www.kowaldesign.com/budget/money.html and play around with what YOU think the budget should be

it's enlightening

Your estimates are quite close! You are obviously well-informed


This is what the test told me.


Let me ask you this do you know the amount of money that measly 1.5% is? I know what it is.

If you do then don't you think that oh so tiny measly amount could be better used in our public school systems?

Also why did you cherry pick one thing I wrote ? cut foreign aid.

if i want a nice property, i need to pay my dues.

i've got no problem with the taxes we pay (with no deductions I might add, no kids, no mortgage, nada) on our $100K income

wish the really rich b@stards felt the same

and people .

I have no problem either. It's when they are not.

As to the really rich. I can't relate how their minds work when it comes to this issue.

Tax reform would go a long way but it seems no matter how it changes.

The rich get richer every time

"Pork barrel spending," "foreign aid," "wild goose chase to save a turtle" ...


Yep, straight out of a Glenn Beck soliloquy.

it's not one or the other

Or sarcasm?

Not wasting millions of dollars a day on unnecessary wars like Iraq, not wasting billions of dollars on inventing new ways of killing people, not wasting billions on corporate welfare, not wasting billions on nation building in Afghanistan, not wasting billions on a bloated military budget would go a long way to solving "over spending".

But cutting spending alone will not solve our problems.

on everything you said but we as democrats also have to concentrate on both.
It seems one side says cuts the other says the problem is not enough taxes.

both are wrong

share and quit with the foreign wars. We'd be doing just fine.

We're not Libertarians here. We DO believe that government should collect taxes and provide services.

I'm a Democrat and proud of it.

Former-republican's cut list items to research:
-foreign aid
-pork barrel spending
-environmental safeguards

A proud Democrat would want to know the truth before believing RW talking points. Capice?

The federal government's collection of revenue is at historic lows, reckoned as portion of the GDP. If tax collections had been maintained at the rates set when President Clinton's administration concluded, even if the Iraq war had been prosecuted and the 2008 economic collapse still occurred, the deficit would be half what it is today, and the national debt in total between four and six trillions less.

8 to 10 trillion is still unacceptable.
We need to cut spending.

What a wonderful speech, and such passion. Everything was perfect. and wonderful. Love Cory Booker! Will need to watch for that rising star...

It's what keeps our country going. I don't mind paying taxes, in fact I would gladly pay more if it meant every man, woman, and child in America were well taken care of.

For example (just using numbers), if someone that makes $100 a week is forced to pay $10 in taxes...that $10 will mean that someone is going to miss a meal, go without clothes or make someone unable to pay rent...to pay their fair share of taxes.

If someone makes $1000 a week and is forced to pay the same percentage of taxes...they will pay $100. That $100 a week will not replace a meal, will not leave someone unclothed, will not leave someone homeless...in fact, it probably won't be missed unless there is a luxury item that they wanted...to pay their fair share of taxes.

I would submit that the person who paid $10 faced a bigger hardship to pay their way than they person who paid $100...so WHY does anyone feel sorry for the one paying $100?

If THAT isn't class warfare, I don't know what is.

So is moving your workforce off US soil. The national dialogue needs to change--this is a country of for and by the people, not Corporations! If you don't work for US, you don't work at all!

That said, we could save a lot by giving up the attempt to dominate the rest of the world by military force.

corporations to pay their fair share of taxes is unpatriotic to the point of constituting nonfeasance, if not malfeasance.

I'd like to know exactly what is "fair share"?