General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)They buy into the propaganda conspiracy theories that Russia has been fronting in social media.
It doesn't take sane people long to see that there are many on the right in this country who will buy into this sh*t.
They have buying into conspiracy theories like this since the Post War era.
OAITW r.2.0
(24,641 posts)or willful co-conspirators?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)What's so dangerous about this period is the susceptibility of the people in a position of power to this painfully-obvious subterfuge. Actually, to call it "subterfuge" is gross overstatement, because these are the lies of simpletons.
LuvLoogie
(7,035 posts)To undermine U.S. leadership, checks and balances, so that authority by force only remains.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...is to "help Trump".
Trump will eventually be gone. Russia is playing a much longer game. They are not "taking sides" in US politics. What they are doing, long term, is undermining confidence in the US political system itself.
This is why there are certain narratives which are sold to various ends of the political spectrum. The subject matter of whatever whacktarded conspiracy theory being peddled is not important. Eroding confidence in democratic institutions and the rule of law is the overall aim. I've pointed out quite a few of these things over time and the mechanisms used to suck people into them.
This type of strategy is a longstanding feature of internal Russian politics.
Wounded Bear
(58,721 posts)to undermine US credibility around the world and within our own borders.
Mike 03
(16,616 posts)opposite ends of the spectrum just to move Americans from a position of consensus in opposite directions. They foment distrust so we lose faith in a factual reality. It's tearing the country apart. Evidence is growing he's done this in other countries, including the UK on Brexit.
triron
(22,023 posts)bigbrother05
(5,995 posts)Putin wants to undermine the West and anything that sows chaos in the US suits his purposes. To that end, Brexit and meddling in EU elections are part of the same plan.
He wants the West confused, distrustful, and internally belligerent to enhance his opportunities to consolidate power with minimal cost. His ascendance in the ME was done with minimal effort because Trump is set on braking the alliances set against Russia.
If Hillary were in office, the GOP and Trumpanistas would be fighting everything she proposed and we still might have openings on the SCOTUS and throughout the federal courts.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...confronting pieces of the larger picture is sometimes unwelcome by some here.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Their number 1 goal is to get out from under sanctions, period. Everything else is ancillary, 'nice to haves'.
Them being blamed for election interference is not good for their chances in achieving their primary goal.
MFGsunny
(2,356 posts)rusty fender
(3,428 posts)And Trumpass is clearly helping Putin in any way he can. Like Pelosi said: all roads lead to Putin.
meadowlander
(4,406 posts)so he is running a campaign to undermine the credibility of the US when it speaks out against dictators across the globe (ala you can't criticize me when you're just as bad).
TidalWave46
(2,061 posts)That's all Putin could hope for. I doubt he imagined it could be pulled off. Anything outside of destabilization of the US that the Russian get is just a bonus.
pecosbob
(7,544 posts)Yavin4
(35,446 posts)See Brexit.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It's not that these things do not have organic grassroots supporters, but the Russians have become adept at using social media to blow on the small embers to heat them up into larger fires.
Caliman73
(11,744 posts)While Putin was likely wanting Trump to win, it wasn't because he thought he could "work better with Trump" it was because Trump was by far, more likely to create more chaos in the US.
Hillary Clinton while an excellent politician, negotiator, statesperson, etc.. openly and rightfully, did not trust or like Putin and his Russian government. She would have gone hard at him over Ukraine and corruption in Russia. She would have worked to strengthen cooperation with NATO and the EU and worked with governments to minimize Russian interference in other countries.
Putin absolutely knows that Hillary Clinton would have continued the same policy of extending a hand to Russia if they cleaned up their act, but having a big stick ready just in case.
Under Trump, the office of the Presidency has been diminished domestically and internationally.
I 100% guarantee that Putin would have continued to work with GOP operatives to discredit Hillary Clinton if she had become president. There would be leaks, and fake scandals plaguing her. But Putin knew the easier route to so chaos and destruction in the US was to have Trump in the White House. It isn't about Putin controlling Trump as it is about setting Trump lose to damage or destroy US institutions.
I would tend to disagree with the whole "pit one party against the other" situation because unless they were working with Nixon and Reagan too, that divide has been growing since Nixon's presidency and was cemented by the emergence of Fox News and the right wing media sphere.
triron
(22,023 posts)Also Trump is an autocrat wannabe. Putin aims to weaken western democracy.
ANY other nominee, both Democratic or Republican would not have been so easy to manipulate. I don't think that ANY Republican candidate or politician is worth spit, but I have to say that none of the serious candidates: Bush, Kaisich, Cruz, Christie, etc... would have been so easy to manipulate. Trump was the ideal for Putin.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,199 posts)And in fact having Trump serve in that office achieves that goal.
H2O Man
(73,623 posts)Dr. Hill is saying that Putin wants to divide Democratic and republican support for Ukraine, which would allow Russia to expand their theft of land in Ukraine. And it would create even greater domestic hostility between the two parties here.
triron
(22,023 posts)democracy.
I didn't -- I said nothing that could be confused as "both-sidism." That exists only in your mind.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...someone asks a question, you post an answer, and then they bust on you for providing one?
You are correct, the Russians don't "support" one side or another in US politics, but want to produce a shambolic clusterfuck sucking in anyone they can rope into that result wittingly or unwittingly.
H2O Man
(73,623 posts)that some people -- good people, included the one here -- do not have an understanding of what a person like Fiona Hill's job is. I've seen another OP that documents the person's lack of understanding. I had hoped we might engage in a discussion that might help shed light on that. Indeed, that understanding is required to fully appreciate not only Hill's testimony, but that of some of last week's witnesses. Clearly, I was attempting to explain it in relatively simply terms that explain her thinking, in the context of her job responsibilities, rather than my opinion, from the comfort of my home.
I'm not going to go so far as to say I love it (grin), but I always find such nonsense amusing. Of course, I say that as someone who has had the time and resources that have allowed me to study the work of people in positions such as Fiona Hill. I realize that what fascinates me isn't everyone's cup of tea.
I'll end by saying that I agree 100% with what you said about Russia. This in no way means they weren't laughing at their good luck when Donald Jr took the infamous meeting, or when his weak, shallow father was elected. Nor does it mean that as an individual, Putin does not bitterly resent Hillary Clinton. But you know that! And having people like you to discuss serious issues overshadows the insults I tend to have thrown my way from time to time.
Roland99
(53,342 posts)Incl NATO
Putin then, essentially, works to re-form the former USSR and take control of oil/gas and other natural resources for plundering by him and his oligarch pals
triron
(22,023 posts)Roland99
(53,342 posts)and not seem like a CT nut, herself
triron
(22,023 posts)lunatica
(53,410 posts)Interfere and influence our elections. So they use Ukraine to continue their plan.
Ukraine is not their friend or ally. They are ours which would keep us unaware of the manipulations. After all Ukraine hates Russia right?
Except the Russians arent telling Ukraine what to do. The Russians are having Trump tell them what to do.
You know, throw everyones attention off of themselves and throw it onto Ukraine, an ally of ours.