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Ilsa

(61,695 posts)
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 07:50 PM Dec 2019

Germany expels two Russian diplomats over murder in August.

German prosecutors said evidence suggests Russia or Chechnya may have ordered the murder of a Georgian man in Berlin. Two Russian diplomats have been expelled, with the German government discussing further steps.

German federal prosecutors announced on Wednesday that they are taking over investigations into the murder of a Georgian asylum-seeker in Berlin, confirming earlier reports.

With Berlin's attorney general saying evidence points to Russian state involvement, pressure is likely to mount on German Chancellor Angela Merkel's government to send a strong signal to Moscow.

What we know so far: 

Prosecutors said there is "sufficient evidence" to indicate that the man's murder was carried out on the behalf of the Russian state or by Chechnya.The German Foreign Ministry also announced that two employees at the Russian Embassy in Berlin had been designated personae non gratae and were expelled.The names and positions of the diplomats were not given, although the ministry said it took the move after Russian authorities failed to "cooperate sufficiently" in the murder investigation.Russia's Foreign Ministry called the move to expel the diplomats an "unfriendly, groundless step" and vowed to respond. Russia's ambassador to Berlin, Sergey Nechaev, said the expulsions "will not be left unanswered."

https://amp.dw.com/en/germany-expels-russian-diplomats-after-murder-in-berlin/a-51527185?__twitter_impression=true

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Germany expels two Russian diplomats over murder in August. (Original Post) Ilsa Dec 2019 OP
Russia stays busy. K&R for visibility. crickets Dec 2019 #1
I am not defending Russia. Blue_true Dec 2019 #2
This man was Georgian. Where did the Ilsa Dec 2019 #3
He fought with Chechen extremists. Blue_true Dec 2019 #4
The Russians destroyed the entire city of Grozny greenjar_01 Dec 2019 #8
He was a relatively higher up with Chechen extremist. Blue_true Dec 2019 #9
Still strange the Germans would allow him in if so greenjar_01 Dec 2019 #10
He could have come into Germany under a false name. Blue_true Dec 2019 #11
Did he? greenjar_01 Dec 2019 #12
It is possible, people that have a reason to get new identities. Blue_true Dec 2019 #14
Yes, throughout history, people have taken on new identities greenjar_01 Dec 2019 #15
He was identified by his real name in the news article published about 7 months Blue_true Dec 2019 #16
Yes, the typical (i.e., lawful) procedure is to formally charge a person and request extradition greenjar_01 Dec 2019 #5
welcome to DU gopiscrap Dec 2019 #18
You think Germany would give asylum to a terrorist involved in killing children? coti Dec 2019 #19
Sometimes people enter countries under assumed pretenses. Blue_true Dec 2019 #21
WTF is up with Russia !? They wild and out and don't know how to act ... uponit7771 Dec 2019 #6
They drop people in the streets quite a lot and have for decades in Russia and internationally. marble falls Dec 2019 #7
I just read Corgigal Dec 2019 #13
Putin is emboldened by Trump Twentyo Dec 2019 #17
Maybe not "unanswered," but there will be no tit for tat DFW Dec 2019 #20

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
2. I am not defending Russia.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 08:49 PM
Dec 2019

But it depends on why they were after that guy. People in a theater and kids at a school were slaughtered by Chechen extremist. If that guy planned it or had a major operational role in it, I can SE why they wanted him, we have done similar many times. I do think that they should have brought their case to German leaders, presented evidence and had the guy extradited to Russia. To kill him in a park in a country where there is rule of law was wrong.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
4. He fought with Chechen extremists.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:15 PM
Dec 2019

There were something like 3 slaughters of innocent people in Russia during his time with the extremist, the theater and elementary school were by far the bloodiest. In the theater something like 100-200 people died and at the school a similar number of kids died over a week or two week standoff between the extremists and Russian security forces. So, if he had any significant role in either, I can see why they want him, but murdering him was not the right choice in a country like Germany.

 

greenjar_01

(6,477 posts)
8. The Russians destroyed the entire city of Grozny
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:46 PM
Dec 2019

Is there evidence that this particular individual was involved in any of the theater attacks? It's strange that the BND would allow him to resettle in Germany if so.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
9. He was a relatively higher up with Chechen extremist.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:09 PM
Dec 2019

That war was a brutal war. Russia doesn't have clean hands by any measure, but attacking theater goers and school children is wrong. Russia must feel that they have the goods on him, Putin is a killer, but I am not sure that he has killed someone who was of no threat to him or who had not done what he saw as an unforgivable acts against Russia. The way the guy was taken out makes me believe that some type of vengeance was being done.

 

greenjar_01

(6,477 posts)
10. Still strange the Germans would allow him in if so
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:16 PM
Dec 2019

He was certainly high up in the Chechen war against the Russians, much of which was conventional and guerilla warfare between armed factions, but that doesn't mean he was involved in the actions you're citing. The fact that the Germans allowed him into Germany actually suggests that he wasn't involved, as the Germans have a) extremely good intelligence on such extremists and b) low tolerance for such extremists.

I agree, in any case, with your previous claim that there is no excuse for extra-judicial assassinations of this kind when extradition can be reasonably requested.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
11. He could have come into Germany under a false name.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:22 PM
Dec 2019

Such a thing happen enough that it should not be of a surprise. The Germans would not know him, but the Russians surely would.

I don't disagree with your conclusion that his killing was flat out murder. If the Russians had something on him, they should have worked through the German system for resolving their complaint.

 

greenjar_01

(6,477 posts)
15. Yes, throughout history, people have taken on new identities
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 11:32 PM
Dec 2019

Did it happen in this case?

Seems like a stretch, honestly. I've seen nothing to support that claim, in any case. Have you?

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
16. He was identified by his real name in the news article published about 7 months
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 12:08 AM
Dec 2019

after his murder. So I have no idea of what he was known as before his murder. I would doubt that Germany would allow a high level person associated with Chechen extremism migrate to Germany under his actual name, but I admits speculating on this point. Both sides (and I hate that term) did some horrible things in that war zone and in places that were not part of the war zone.

 

greenjar_01

(6,477 posts)
5. Yes, the typical (i.e., lawful) procedure is to formally charge a person and request extradition
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:19 PM
Dec 2019

I hope we don't stray from such institutional norms of legal conduct.

In any case, the Germans are essentially saying that these two Russian nationals protected under diplomatic immunity were involved in a conspiracy - at the very least - to commit murder. Strikes me as nothing to sneeze at.

coti

(4,612 posts)
19. You think Germany would give asylum to a terrorist involved in killing children?
Fri Dec 13, 2019, 03:10 AM
Dec 2019

Or, is it more likely that the guy was a non-violent political enemy who Putin assassinated, as he has done so many times in the past?

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
21. Sometimes people enter countries under assumed pretenses.
Fri Dec 13, 2019, 09:40 PM
Dec 2019

The guy was a leader at a time when both sides were doing brutal things, like killing innocents.

Corgigal

(9,291 posts)
13. I just read
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:26 PM
Dec 2019

From Russia with blood. If you want to dig further into what Putin is doing all over the world.
I bet he enjoyed it was near Merkel’s office.

DFW

(54,397 posts)
20. Maybe not "unanswered," but there will be no tit for tat
Fri Dec 13, 2019, 06:03 AM
Dec 2019

Germany does not maintain a standing team of assassins under diplomatic cover. This is not 1939. If Russia wants to expel two German diplomats, it can, obviously, but it will run a very real danger that the German diplomats it expels were exactly who they said they were, as opposed to the Russians being asked to leave.

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