They weren't thinking in the first place...

place to be. Had a friend go in with spine trouble, got pneumonia there and passed away.

stay and the risks associated with going there with a weakened immune system.

can until the flu danger is over.

Sometimes you can't wait and I think most hospitals do a good job of keeping people as safe as they can.

Your MIL must be so scared for him

Personally, I don't see any benefit from trying to shoot down someone's beliefs or their way of getting through life, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Thankfully the decision of what to believe in or not believe in hasn't been taken away from us yet.

How nice of you to step on others” beliefs.

To each his own. Way to kick people when they're down.

I'm an atheist too but respect other people's beliefs. Merry Christmas. Sheesh.

That's the funniest thing I've read this week!

than you do. If you're so unhappy & feel so unsafe, why stay? Unless you enjoy conflict. Have a nice day.

by INSTANTLY making the discussion a PERSONAL ATTACK rather than simply discussing the idea.

Good for you!

To you and to others who commented on the rudeness.

I'm an agnostic Episcopalian. I get tremendous peace, love, and beauty in my church, even though I don't believe much of what we say in the service. (I pretty much keep my doubts to myself, although the rector knows my position.)

I'm singing in the choir in our midnight service tonight, and it's a joy I could never find anywhere else.

nt

But I've also done some really dumb things in my life.

so they're not as pig headed as some!
(seriously though .. as far as faux-news and disinformation goes .. "health and natural health" stuff is really right up at the top of the pyramid. It's threatening ALL of us.)

You can promise not to rat her out to FIL, if that has her concerned.

Maybe it was not MIL who was the big anti-vax instigator.



(again, nobody has to know.)

(except us. we want to know. we deserve to know)

And there's no further proof of this needed than anti vaccination crusaders.

I bet they were obnoxiously in your face before.

It's called freedom to die
Just don't take us with you!

You know how Typhoid Mary's life ended?

"Schadenfreude: Pleasure derived by someone from another person's misfortune."Woo hoo!! Let's hope he dies so it's "in your face!" to the MIL!!

Geezus, what is wrong with you people? The man is dying for heaven's sake. You DO realize that some years the flu shot is completely ineffective, right? I'm not for or against, in fact I told my college-age daughter to remember to get her flu shot because college campuses are petri dishes for viruses. She got busy and forgot. Then her roommate came down with the flu and I admonished her "See? I told you that you needed to get your flu shot!". She replied "Mom, my roommate did get her flu shot. Her mom is a doctor". So I told her to make sure she washed her hands like a fanatic (still the #1 method for preventing the spread of flu). She, thankfully, never got the flu.

Finally, just yesterday a very good friend of mine had to take her elderly mom into the hospital for a case of pneumonia. My friend makes sure her mom gets her flu shot and pneumonia shot religiously. In her mom's case, my suspicion is that her immune system might be too weak to generate a strong enough immune response (she is in her late 80's)

Even when people do the right things they can still get sick. Maybe we can cut down on the "schadenfreude" when someone is gravely ill and fighting for their life? I just don't get that reaction, I truly don't.

I meant "I'm not for or against" more along the lines of my reaction isn't based on whether or not the man should have gotten his flu shot, it's the sentiment that because he didn't he somehow deserves to die.

In the years when the influenza strain that arises is different from the one the CDC planned a vaccine for, the partial immunity conferred by the vaccine is rarely less than 25%. And a partial immunity can be the difference between life and death.

But my point was more along the lines of being turned off by the almost gleeful response to the poor man fighting for his life. If the guy is anti-vaccine then sneering and jeering when he is fighting for his life is ok? Schadenfreude is ok? Whatever happened to empathy? Who on this board hasn't done something stupid in their lives?

It's the attitude that bothers me. I guess I just don't get how getting some sort of satisfaction out of man literally dying does anyone any good. "Well, he deserved it because he didn't get his shot.". No one deserves that.

our substance abuse treatment center. Getting them vaccinated is an important part of the admissions process. I have some patients refuse the vaccine, and administration won't back me up in my insistence that they get immunized.

Last week, one of the patients being admitted was HIV-positive. He is in treatment for it and his CD-4 count is normal. But he's still immunocompromised and vulnerable to a deadly infection. Despite the danger to him, the anti-vaxxers he is going to be sharing quarters with have still refused to get their immunizations.

My sympathies right now are with those who get infected by these creeps. The creeps themselves will get a sad headshake and a "that's too bad" from me if they die. But as long as they are putting the health of innocent people in danger, my empathy-meter will register on the low side for them.

Well, if your patient got HIV due to unsafe sex after all that science knows these days, then my empathy meter will be on the low side for them. Others can get infected by these creeps. They'll get a headshake and a "that's too bad" from me if they die, but as long as they are putting the health of innocent people in danger, my sympathies remain with those who contracted the disease through tainted blood or some other reason out of their control.

I don't really feel that way, but do you see how that works? How can anyone not have empathy for someone gravely ill, regardless of how they got there? That's my point.

For those who are anti-vaccine, I will continue to empathize and try to reason with them from a more sympathetic versus judgemental stance. Most probably won't listen but maybe I can convince a few, I don't know, but I'm certainly not going to dance on their graves if they get sick.

When a patient objects to getting immunized, I ask what their objections are, and then shoot them down, one by one, until finally, they say "I just don't want to", which is anti-vaxxer for "I know I'm wrong on this issue, but am too poison-stupid to admit it".

I'm sure you thought your HIV analogy was a good one, and ten out of ten for trying. But they're not the same.

My HIV patient is sick. How he got that way is not only not my business, but knowing how he got that way will in no way affect my treatment plan for him, or my desire to protect him from infection with preventable diseases. And HIV is not transmissible through casual contact, the way influenza can be. So he's not putting anyone at the treatment center in danger.

On edit: it just occurred to me: my patient is compliant with his HIV medication treatment plan, and his CD-4 count is normal. If for some reason, the possibility arose that his blood could come into contact with someone else, he has taken the steps to reduce the risk of infecting that person with HIV. His anti-vaxx fellow patients have refused to return the favor.

My anti-flu-vaxxers are healthy. And they have the means to keep themselves that way, and prevent anyone else within breathing distance from becoming infected. But they are stubbornly choosing not to. At that point, I can stop caring if they stay healthy or not; but I don't; I want to keep them and everyone else healthy, and not let them infect immunocompromised patients.

I get what you are saying and I can imagine that being "on the front lines", so to speak, would make someone less sympathetic to those who aren't getting a flu vaccine. BUT, I still don't agree that feeling "schadenfreude" when a man is gravely ill and fighting for his life makes any sense. I hope if I ever get gravely ill my DIL or SIL isn't posting on a forum about how I could have prevented it -- when no one knows that for sure. I'd hope any posting would be along the lines of hope, support, and love.

This is a very sad story.

Please provide some evidence for this statement.

See above.

Thanks!

"You DO realize that some years the flu shot is completely ineffective, right?" That Wikipedia article does not support your claim.

The flu shot covers several different strains, and some years the protective benefit against a particular strain is ZERO. So it not only depends on the effectiveness of the shot itself (for that year), but it also depends on the strain you get.

What are factors that influence how well the vaccine works?

How well the flu vaccine works (or its ability to prevent flu illness) can vary from season to season. The vaccine’s effectiveness also can vary depending on who is being vaccinated. At least two factors play an important role in determining the likelihood that flu vaccine will protect a person from flu illness: 1) characteristics of the person being vaccinated (such as their age and health), and 2) the similarity or “match” between the flu viruses the flu vaccine is designed to protect against and the flu viruses spreading in the community. During years when the flu vaccine is not well matched to circulating influenza viruses, it is possible that little or no benefit from flu vaccination may be observed. During years when there is a good match between the flu vaccine and circulating viruses, it is possible to measure substantial benefits from flu vaccination in terms of preventing flu illness and complications. However, even during years when the flu vaccine match is good, the benefits of flu vaccination will vary, depending on various factors like the characteristics of the person being vaccinated, what influenza viruses are circulating that season and even, potentially, which type of flu vaccine was used.


https://www.cdc.gov/flu/season/index.html

The CDC says: "During years when the flu vaccine is not well matched to circulating influenza viruses, it is possible that little or no benefit from flu vaccination may be observed."

The poster said: "You DO realize that some years the flu shot is completely ineffective, right?"

Also, according to Scientific American, as people age, their immune systems are not as strong so their vaccine response is not as good as it is in younger people. CDC recommends people 65 and older get the high dose flu shot - Fluzone.

From CDC webpage:

Which years have the flu vaccines been shown to be "completely ineffective", as the poster claimed?

Some strains don't grow well in eggs.

Are unbelievable. Donald Trump level cruelty.


Not referring to you, of course.

there would be a major epidemic.

and there is no epidemic.

excuse the hell out of me!

Why did I mention Typhoid Mary?

Excuse the hell out of me if someone wants me dead!

How strange for you to bring that up.

I guess so you could laugh about someone’s illness.

My father was a large animal vet for a living and he used to vaccinate dogs for rabies for one dollar in order to get as many dogs as possible vaccinated. It was a poor rural area and it wasn't a big part of his business. He had a farmer for a customer who didn't believe in vaccinations for humans. Very strange belief, no doubt had some "religeous" influence, but he did vaccinate his hogs. He ended up with tetanus and actually survived one of the most painful disease there is. Needless to say, he joined the Church of Vaccinations.
Soon as someone says "I believe" I know it's pointless to argue with them. Beliefs are not based on facts or logic and we probably all have some non fact based beliefs of our own. This where our media really fails. They often present "beliefs" as the other side. Climate change is a great example. There never has been a scientific argument that it isn't happening in the fifty years I've known about it and yet the media goes "on the other side". Journalists on the whole have little science knowlege and it seems many of our politicians have a degree in politcal science or history and maybe a law degree. I'd like to see more science oriented people elected to office buy then one of the most bat crazy religious nuts I ever met was a competent electrical engineer.

I think most of the older anti-vaxxers just don't trust the flu vaccine (will it make me sick? will it prevent the flu?) or the shingles vaccine (side effects..and will it work?)
Most have been through the rest of the vaccines at one time or another in their lives.

This reminds me, that I'm due for a tetanus booster.

I do need to go get the appropriate vaccines. In my case it's not that I don't trust it, but I don't necessarily trust just anyone to administer it correctly. The last (and only) time I got a flu shot it was at Walgreens. My arm hurt for quite a few months, so much so that I reported it to the entity that keeps track of adverse effects. It was suggested that the person who administered it shot it in the bursa sac. I'll get it from my doctor's office from now on.

Shoulder Injury Related to Vaccine Administration - it happens when an injection is too high in the arm. Many people don't totally recover. It is a injury that is covered by the government's Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

Fortunately I did recover. (That's me, waving my arm, full range of motion. )

corn got infected.I

Back then, of course, there was no tetanus vaccine.

Well, maybe after they rethink their position against vaccinations.

posted all their health problems to a bunch of strangers simply to make a point. I am amazed at some of the ugly, almost gleeful comments in this thread.

I hope they recover fully.

them, and the more suffering those people endure the more they enjoy it.

Again in a SECOND thread about these poor people, you are one of the few voices of kindness.

There seems to be a real lack of empathy on so many levels. I cannot imagine posting about anyone I care for having a serious illness simply to make a point on a discussion board. And some of the replies are just horrid. I can only hope much of this is internet silliness and not how people are in real life.

There's very little glee in saying "We told you this was going to happen, and you didn't listen!"

If a guy is told to watch where he's going, and he doesn't listen and trips and falls face-first into a banana cream pie, sure, glee will be the result. But in cases like this? Not so much...

of the flu & pneumonia vaccines.

If anyone can be prevented from having the same fate, it's worth it.

What people choose to respond with is on them.

Your posts have been very educational. I suspect many people don't realize that complications from the flu can include damage to the heart.

Thanks!

I don't get those shots either, and I am very pro-vaccination. I view an anti-vaxxer is someone who opposes required, standard shots for kids and babies. I can't stand those people, God forgive me.

Are they against measles, mumps, or chicken pox shots for kids?

They developed this attitude rather late in life.

All their kids were vaccinated.

But, their oldest grandchild began having seizures the day he was first vaccinated, and has never stopped having them. Due to that, he's basically a 6 month old, in a 12 year old body.

The father (their son) blames the vaccination, and has convinced his parents the vaccine was the cause of the seizure disorder, so they became anti-vaxxers at that point and stopped getting any and all shots.

A very small percentage of people have severe reactions to vaccines - that's why the government has a Vaccine Injury Compensation Program that has paid out billions. The CDC does list seizures as a rare side effect of some childhood vaccines. From linked CDC website - You can click on each vaccine and see side effects. Side effects are very rare but they do happen and often when it has happened to someone close to you, it effects you emotionally.

If they are so frightened about vaccinations, they should keep anti-virals handy. Anti-virals are a second form of attack and are also recommended by the CDC, particularly in some who can't get a flu shot for whatever reason.

There is a new anti-viral that was just approved this year, XOFLUZA, that kills the flu virus in 24 hours (so after 24 hours you are no longer contagious). It can also be taken prophylactically. In the case of your FIL if he suspected he came down with the flu he could have started on an anti-viral and your MIL could have taken one too to prevent her from catching it.

Anecdotally, my college-age daughter's roommate--who had a flu shot but still contracted the flu--started on anti-virals once it was confirmed she had the flu. She was fever free after 24 hours and symptom-free after 48. My co-worker (who is religious about getting her flu shot) came down with the flu this year and she also started on anti-virals. She had a similar reaction in that after 24 hours her fever was gone and after 72 hours she felt like she'd never even had the flu.

Only mentioning this as it could be an alternative way to protect your FIL, MIL. And, from what I'm reading, this year may not be a great year for the flu shot. I keep anti-virals on hand for this very reason.

of them all the more disturbing.

it probably didn't happen "in the wake of his first vaccine", which is normally the Hepatitis B vaccine, given very shortly after the child is born. If he did begin to have seizures on the day of his birth, on what basis would the family blame the vaccine?

Two thoughts here: one, we have (or had, haven't seen her in awhile) a DUer with what seems to be a freakishly strong immune system, as she has never had either a flu shot or the flu, and thinks both are stupid, and any illness is the sick person's own fault. I'm sorry some people are giving you a hard time. "Schadenfreude," my ass.

Second, I live with a certain amount of anxiety regarding my 3 grandchildren, as my daughter is an anti-vaxxer. I believe in Science. She gets her information from Face Book. She believes healthy outdoor living and grubbing in the honest dirt will build her kids' immunity and they won't need any of that poison injected into their bodies. I on the other hand know that my baby sister's health was compromised for years of her life by the childhood illnesses she caught from me and our brother.

Please, nobody tell me what to tell her. There is no discussion to be had on the subject.

I hope your in-laws make a full recovery, and rethink their attitudes. All the best to you all.

I didn't see anyone else ask this. Is your partner okay? I am assuming (and it may be a big assumption, that your partner shares political and scientific views with you. That typically makes partnerships/marriage a little bit easier. It must be difficult for your partner to have parents that have such opposing beliefs.

I hope that things turn out as well as they can for your in-laws, your partner, and you.

He's really worried for his dad, as you can imagine.

He disagrees with his parents' anti-vaxx stance, of course. Particularly when it comes to older people who are not subject to seizures after vaccines.

We spent Christmas Day with them yesterday. His dad is a shadow of his former self, at least for now.
He's very sluggish and seems incoherent at times. We're not sure if that is due to still having pneumonia (and having difficulty sleeping, due to breathing issues), or if it's the result of the heart damage (or both - most likely).

It's very sad to see, so if this thread helps convince people to get their flu and pneumonia shots, it will be worth it.

CPAP's make a huge difference if you are having trouble sleeping

Really, he's the world's worst patient.

Has he tried different masks? I have a comfort gel mask that works for me but I also have a full face mask for when my nose is really stuffed.

He might find that one more tolerable.

I have tried several types of masks. I just upgraded my machine (which we think is over 12 years old) to the current model.

When I was without power following hurricane Ike, I was about to buy a generator because I could not sleep without may machine. Luckily power came on just before I left to get a generator.

We have a Catch 22 again. Older folks need stronger vaccines like Fluzone, but Fluzone has stronger side effects.

https://www.rxlist.com/fluzone-highdose-side-effects-drug-center.htm#overview

Researchers noticed a weird negative inference phenomenon where, in some cases, people who got vaccinated annually were more susceptible to the next years flu if it was very similar to the flu virus they were inoculated against the year before. They are conducting studies to figure out why, but the theory is perhaps a stronger flu vaccine might resolve the problem with negative inference. But that introduces more side effects.

https://www.statnews.com/2015/11/11/flu-shots-reduce-effectiveness/

If you’ve been diligent about getting your flu shot every year, you may not want to read this. But a growing body of evidence indicates that more may not always be better.

The evidence, which is confounding some researchers, suggests that getting flu shots repeatedly can gradually reduce the effectiveness of the vaccines under some circumstances.

Dr. Edward Belongia is among the scientists who have seen the picture coming into focus. He and some colleagues at Wisconsin’s Marshfield Clinic Research Foundation reported recently that children who had been vaccinated annually over a number of years were more likely to contract the flu than kids who were only vaccinated in the season in which they were studied.

Those same researchers say it's still important to get an annual flu shot, so I'm not referencing that article as any sort of "anti-vaxx" message. It's just that comparing the flu vaccine to other vaccinations isn't a fair comparison. So much is still unknown. The more we know the better.