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dalton99a

(81,515 posts)
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 11:52 AM Dec 2019

Russia Is a Mess. Why Is Putin Such a Formidable Adversary? (NYT)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/23/world/europe/russia-putin.html

Russia Is a Mess. Why Is Putin Such a Formidable Adversary?
Its economy is sputtering and its young people are frustrated, but with America and Europe in tumult, Russia and its leader of two decades are on a roll.
By Andrew Higgins
Dec. 23, 2019

Russia’s economy is dwarfed by that of America’s, which is more than 10 times bigger in dollar terms; it is too small to make even a list of the top 10, and it grew by around just 1 percent this year. Nor does Russia pack much cultural punch beyond its borders, despite excelling in classical music, ballet and many other arts. South Korea, thanks to K-pop and its movies, has more reach.

Yet Russia has become a lodestar for autocrats and aspiring autocrats around the world, a pioneer of the media and other tools — known in Russia as “political technologies” — that these leaders now deploy, with or without Moscow’s help, to disrupt a world order once dominated by the United States. These include the propagation of fake or at least highly misleading news; the masking of simple facts with complicated conspiracy theories; and denunciations of political rivals as traitors or, in a term President Trump borrowed from Stalin, “enemies of the people.” ...

Russian mind games have been particularly successful in the United States, which Mr. Putin and his officials regularly accuse of paranoid Russophobia but whose fixation on Russia has only multiplied the force of its influence. Moscow’s efforts to sow division through Facebook and other social media platforms were low-budget and often primitive, but they have had a disproportionate effect on the American political process.

The result is a state of fretful and anything-goes uncertainty, a condition summed up by Peter Pomerantsev, a Soviet-born British author, in the title of his 2014 book about Mr. Putin’s Russia: “Nothing is True and Everything is Possible.”

In Russia, Ms. Khrushcheva said, “it’s not what is on the surface, it’s doublespeak, triple-think. That’s why we are so good at art.”
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Russia Is a Mess. Why Is Putin Such a Formidable Adversary? (NYT) (Original Post) dalton99a Dec 2019 OP
It's because he owns the Russian media and has the muscle to beat back and challenges to his power Dennis Donovan Dec 2019 #1
+1. It is organized crime masquerading as government dalton99a Dec 2019 #2
And, putin putting his prime resouces into those efforts, taking advantage empedocles Dec 2019 #5
Evangelical Americans love him because he persecutes gays openly. world wide wally Dec 2019 #3
And gives them a religious based excuse for greed, lambchopp59 Dec 2019 #19
Asymmetrical warfare using psychosocial dynamics Skraxx Dec 2019 #4
Three things DonaldsRump Dec 2019 #6
Because Putin and a handful of oligarchs NewJeffCT Dec 2019 #7
They are like fleas, ticks, and mosquitoes bothering everybody, bringing some down Baked Potato Dec 2019 #8
Organized crime financed by Oil and Gas. maxsolomon Dec 2019 #9
I agree with most everything here BUT BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #10
+1. Racist Russian anti-Obama advertising: dalton99a Dec 2019 #11
Exactly, thanks for posting BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #13
They're not Klingons Leith Dec 2019 #15
THE PHONE CALL WAS PERFECT AND Marcuse Dec 2019 #18
+1 dalton99a Dec 2019 #20
I'm giving away my age here but... DAngelo136 Dec 2019 #21
Prophetic episode Baked Potato Dec 2019 #25
Thanks for the reminder Baked Potato Dec 2019 #24
They've always been the Klingons... paleotn Dec 2019 #28
Our military is old of steel and concrete. Putin is beating us down with Cyber attacks. pwb Dec 2019 #12
IED's of the cyber world. paleotn Dec 2019 #29
Russian govt is one massive crime syndicate supported by extortion rings. It's what Dump is trying kysrsoze Dec 2019 #14
Russia is not totally devoid of natural resources or access to technology DFW Dec 2019 #16
It's been so effective here because conservatives have spent 50 years... JHB Dec 2019 #17
Yep... paleotn Dec 2019 #27
So right. They almost did it too. pwb Dec 2019 #34
Putin gets plenty of traction on the left, too Recursion Dec 2019 #35
And the sad part is that the average Russian loves Putin as much as the right love tRump. Texin Dec 2019 #22
Because Putin's aggressive foreign policy is for domestic (Russian) consumption. ArtTownsend Dec 2019 #23
Simple really... paleotn Dec 2019 #26
I still cant believe Putin told Trump it was The Ukraine that interfered in the 2016 election. Mr. Sparkle Dec 2019 #30
We are also a mess. Loryn Dec 2019 #31
it's a feature, not a bug 0rganism Dec 2019 #32
Essentially it's a big white enclave with traditional gender roles and a mafia don for simplicity. gulliver Dec 2019 #33

Dennis Donovan

(18,770 posts)
1. It's because he owns the Russian media and has the muscle to beat back and challenges to his power
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 11:58 AM
Dec 2019

...a typical thug.

dalton99a

(81,515 posts)
2. +1. It is organized crime masquerading as government
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 12:00 PM
Dec 2019

Heck, they can't even win at sports without cheating

empedocles

(15,751 posts)
5. And, putin putting his prime resouces into those efforts, taking advantage
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 12:05 PM
Dec 2019

of the American vacuum, created by trump.

lambchopp59

(2,809 posts)
19. And gives them a religious based excuse for greed,
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 01:53 PM
Dec 2019

racism, homophobia, you name it, anything but face real issues:
https://www.overshootday.org/

U.S. is the number 5 most egregiously greedy consuming nation,
Russia, at number 13 wants to catch up.
But, but, but, we can't bake cakes for gay weddings cause Ghod.

Skraxx

(2,977 posts)
4. Asymmetrical warfare using psychosocial dynamics
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 12:04 PM
Dec 2019

Russia is at war with the west. You see me now a veteran of a thousand psychic wars.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
7. Because Putin and a handful of oligarchs
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 12:31 PM
Dec 2019

control a vast majority of the Russian money and they can focus HUGE dollars onto disrupting foreign adversaries like the US, the UK, France, etc.

Funneling $20 million or $30 million into an American presidential election is small money for 20 or so guys worth tens of billions combined.

Baked Potato

(7,733 posts)
8. They are like fleas, ticks, and mosquitoes bothering everybody, bringing some down
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 12:36 PM
Dec 2019

Their military is low on morale and can’t be trusted to win conventional wars. So, they got good at unconventional warfare. They get their objectives and have deniability.

maxsolomon

(33,345 posts)
9. Organized crime financed by Oil and Gas.
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 12:37 PM
Dec 2019

With no constraints, ethical or moral, whatsoever. Raw, autocratic power enabled by the amoral greed of Western corporations.

BannonsLiver

(16,396 posts)
10. I agree with most everything here BUT
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 12:40 PM
Dec 2019

I refuse to let the Russian people off the hook. Putin is wildly popular there, and the country itself is jam packed full of white hate filled gay bashing bigots who resent Americans. The Russians are the Klingons of our world. Fuck em.

Leith

(7,809 posts)
15. They're not Klingons
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 01:06 PM
Dec 2019

Klingons have a code of honor.

They're Cardassians. The US is like the Ferengi except the corporate oligarchy sinks to lows that even the Ferengi refuse to sink to (like polluting the world we live in).

Luckily, there are many of us who will never say that there are anything but four lights.


Sorry to those who are not Star Trek fans. I'll translate: Cardassian are a military species who conquer an oppress other species who are not strong enough to fight them off. They blatantly spout lies and propaganda and they enjoy torture. One such torturer tried to get Captain Picard to deny that there were four lights in front of him, but he couldn't break him. When he was rescued, Picard turned to the torturer and shouted There. Are. Four. Lights! That phrase has come to mean defiance and denial of obvious lies.

DAngelo136

(265 posts)
21. I'm giving away my age here but...
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 02:04 PM
Dec 2019

I would prefer a different analogy. From Rod Serling's "The Twilight Zone" "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street" from Season 1 ep. 22.
I'll use the closing narration to illustrate what Putin and his minions are doing. If you happen to watch a "Twilight Zone" marathon, you'll see the parallels from the Cold War era to the Cyber War era:

"The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices...to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill...and suspicion can destroy...and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own – for the children and the children yet unborn. And the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the Twilight Zone."

paleotn

(17,931 posts)
28. They've always been the Klingons...
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 02:30 PM
Dec 2019

Gene Roddenberry simply extrapolated from the Cold War. From the original TV series, we all knew the Klingons were a stand in for the Russkies.

pwb

(11,276 posts)
12. Our military is old of steel and concrete. Putin is beating us down with Cyber attacks.
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 12:46 PM
Dec 2019

We buy planes and ships and build bases while Putin divides us without firing a shot.

kysrsoze

(6,022 posts)
14. Russian govt is one massive crime syndicate supported by extortion rings. It's what Dump is trying
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 12:59 PM
Dec 2019

to use as the same formula. You don't have to care about your people to make yourself rich if you've got the hackers, money and military force available. In this way, Dump and Putin are exactly the same. They don't give a shit about anybody but themselves.

DFW

(54,405 posts)
16. Russia is not totally devoid of natural resources or access to technology
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 01:09 PM
Dec 2019

What they ARE devoid of is scruples. Putin cares about glory, wealth and power, and Russia has enough of that to maintain an 18th century-style society with a solid oligarchy on top, a tiny middle class that has little prospect of growing, and a large segment of working poor, just like they did in their socialist days.

I haven't been in a few years, but one of our good friends was Moscow station chief for west German radio news, still has his Russian girlfriend (who visits often), and he is still there for long stretches every year. He does not hang with, or know, the top elite, but he knows people who do, and he gets the story pretty much straight from the source.

JHB

(37,160 posts)
17. It's been so effective here because conservatives have spent 50 years...
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 01:12 PM
Dec 2019

...building an infrastructure to accomplish the same things.

All Vlad had to do was clone a second set of controls. And in the end, their goals aren't that different.

pwb

(11,276 posts)
34. So right. They almost did it too.
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 05:14 PM
Dec 2019

The blue tidal wave will finish it next fall. Fingers crossed.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
35. Putin gets plenty of traction on the left, too
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 05:35 PM
Dec 2019

Russian operatives organized multiple anti-TPP and anti-Keystone XL protests. They also organized some BLM protests but as far as we can tell just so they would happen right next to white nationalist protests. And of course there's Jill Stein.

Texin

(2,596 posts)
22. And the sad part is that the average Russian loves Putin as much as the right love tRump.
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 02:08 PM
Dec 2019

The big difference between Russians, though, is that their country was never a democratic republic. They've either been ruled by monarchies or by the Politbureau, which corrupted the ideals espoused by the early Communist Party people, creating wealth for a few more in control of the political levers, and further impoverishing the masses. The Russians don't know any other kind of way, but Americans do. We've known this for 250 years or thereabouts. Or at least those of us who are hoping to see the continuation of democracy rather than the demolition of it by extreme ideologues and racists, and others who want to plunder its resources for personal enrichment.

 

ArtTownsend

(439 posts)
23. Because Putin's aggressive foreign policy is for domestic (Russian) consumption.
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 02:16 PM
Dec 2019

And it works for his popularity.

paleotn

(17,931 posts)
26. Simple really...
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 02:25 PM
Dec 2019

A handful of cronies have looted what little wealth Russia has. Petro dollars mostly, as Russia makes very little anyone wants. Couple that with what Russia does very well outside of classical music and ballet, intelligence, and you have a very effective weapon of asymmetric warfare. Now all they need is a major political party within a rich, giant advisory that's morally bankrupt and you have the debacle we find ourselves in.

Mr. Sparkle

(2,935 posts)
30. I still cant believe Putin told Trump it was The Ukraine that interfered in the 2016 election.
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 02:49 PM
Dec 2019

and not Russia. Its absurd on the face of it and yet the repukes are running around and shouting it from the rooftops. Its one of the privileges of owning half the media , you can make anything up and they will go along with it.

Loryn

(944 posts)
31. We are also a mess.
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 03:06 PM
Dec 2019

I see a republican on tv, and I just can't. We live in an "I am rubber you are glue..." nation.

It seems that everyone has taken crazy pills.

0rganism

(23,957 posts)
32. it's a feature, not a bug
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 03:29 PM
Dec 2019

this holiday season let's all have fun whistling past the graveyard, all the cool kids are doing it

gulliver

(13,186 posts)
33. Essentially it's a big white enclave with traditional gender roles and a mafia don for simplicity.
Mon Dec 23, 2019, 03:41 PM
Dec 2019

It's not hard to get. Looks a lot like Trumpism.

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