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I continue to find it shocking that American journalists and pundits discuss (Original Post) malaise Jan 2020 OP
the planet is infected with us. the wonderful earth will be fine NRaleighLiberal Jan 2020 #1
That's the truth malaise Jan 2020 #3
It represents a massive escalation and policy change. maxsolomon Jan 2020 #2
Very bad precedent. moondust Jan 2020 #4
Everone of our candidates say the dead guy was a "blood on his hands" dirtbag AncientGeezer Jan 2020 #5
Can we kill Kim Jong Un, too? maxsolomon Jan 2020 #6
Has KJU, Khamenei killed 100's of Americans .....the dead Quds force dude did AncientGeezer Jan 2020 #7
KJU has "killed" American Otto Warmbier, and "100s of Koreans". He killed his brother. maxsolomon Jan 2020 #8
Got'cha....you're doing equivalancy.... AncientGeezer Jan 2020 #10
Respectfully, that's wrong. maxsolomon Jan 2020 #13
If that get's you through the evening...it's cool. The planet is way better off without him AncientGeezer Jan 2020 #17
No one is arguing that he wasn't responsible for problems and killing Americans. Caliman73 Jan 2020 #18
He WAS NOT a "foreign leader".....he was a military terrorist...in IRAQ AncientGeezer Jan 2020 #25
Here's an article you might enjoy: maxsolomon Jan 2020 #27
Nothing from commondreams is enjoyable....to those that are thinking humans. AncientGeezer Jan 2020 #31
I'd try to come up with more persuasive arguments, maxsolomon Jan 2020 #36
Yes he was. He was the ranking general in the Iranian Army Caliman73 Jan 2020 #37
That's insulting and dismissive, AG. maxsolomon Jan 2020 #23
I'll justify it....hundreds of dead Americans at the hands of the dead terrorist AncientGeezer Jan 2020 #26
They have already named his successor. Caliman73 Jan 2020 #38
Named a successor...after what happened to his predecessor....(think this out) AncientGeezer Jan 2020 #40
He'll be immediately replaced treestar Jan 2020 #39
Already addressed...see post 40 AncientGeezer Jan 2020 #41
Excellent post malaise Jan 2020 #24
We did....we killed him....like he killed ours AncientGeezer Jan 2020 #28
Who killed the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis malaise Jan 2020 #29
This is 2020....not 1988 and Iran just shot down with Russian arms, a Ukraine airliner...right? AncientGeezer Jan 2020 #34
MBS,... magicarpet Jan 2020 #33
I agree with you, but.. Arthur_Frain Jan 2020 #9
Theoretically, we are killing extra-state actors. Criminals. Terrorists. maxsolomon Jan 2020 #14
They are just collateral damage malaise Jan 2020 #15
But you were just arguing upthread that Suleimani was an Iranian government official Arthur_Frain Jan 2020 #43
Yes. He is. He is an Iranian Government official. maxsolomon Jan 2020 #45
And the Regime label for any country pukes don't like. pwb Jan 2020 #11
Trump has set the tone PatSeg Jan 2020 #12
He is more crass about it but assassinations like this one malaise Jan 2020 #16
Oh yes, that is true PatSeg Jan 2020 #19
Agree malaise Jan 2020 #21
It truly is. arthritisR_US Jan 2020 #20
trump was judge, jury and executioner spanone Jan 2020 #22
Yep malaise Jan 2020 #30
The logical extension of the Monroe Doctrine. guillaumeb Jan 2020 #32
Tweety's commentary tonight was excellent malaise Jan 2020 #42
They have normalized the criminal behavior of the GOP. CentralMass Jan 2020 #35
No kidding, malaise. smirkymonkey Jan 2020 #44

NRaleighLiberal

(60,018 posts)
1. the planet is infected with us. the wonderful earth will be fine
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 04:37 PM
Jan 2020

once the fever does its work.

We the people are the problem, a severely flawed species

maxsolomon

(33,360 posts)
2. It represents a massive escalation and policy change.
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 04:38 PM
Jan 2020

It's virtually unprecedented for the US to assassinate a foreign government official. When Yamamoto's plane was targeted we were at war with Japan.

Other killings have been of non-state actors: Al Bagdhadi, Bin Laden.

We didn't even kill Saddam Hussein!

moondust

(20,002 posts)
4. Very bad precedent.
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 05:06 PM
Jan 2020

What if other countries start using drones to assassinate "bad" foreign officials on diplomatic missions abroad? I'll bet a lot of Americans would be on somebody's hit list.

 

AncientGeezer

(2,146 posts)
5. Everone of our candidates say the dead guy was a "blood on his hands" dirtbag
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 05:34 PM
Jan 2020

....the world is better.

 

AncientGeezer

(2,146 posts)
7. Has KJU, Khamenei killed 100's of Americans .....the dead Quds force dude did
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 06:01 PM
Jan 2020

I don't know who MBS is.

maxsolomon

(33,360 posts)
8. KJU has "killed" American Otto Warmbier, and "100s of Koreans". He killed his brother.
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 06:51 PM
Jan 2020

Suleimani was under Khamenei, so yes, he's killed "100s of Americans", via proxies.

MBS is Prince Mohammad Bin Salman, the de-facto ruler of Saudi Arabia. He ordered the killing of Jamal Khashoggi, a US resident.

Just want to know where you draw the line at assassinating officials of foreign governments. Does it have to >100 killed? Do they need to be Americans?

 

AncientGeezer

(2,146 posts)
10. Got'cha....you're doing equivalancy....
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 07:14 PM
Jan 2020

Suleimani is a know killer...EVERY one of our candidates say so...they all say he had American blood on his hands.

Dead evil bastard....NORK leader, Khamenei, Salman.....not 100's of deaths of Americans on their hands ....right?

Suleimani wasn't "under"....anyone....he was a free reign terrorist....

maxsolomon

(33,360 posts)
13. Respectfully, that's wrong.
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 07:26 PM
Jan 2020

Ayatollah Khamenei is the Supreme Leader of Iran - Suleimani served under him. Suleimani was an Iranian Government Official. A general in a branch of the ISRG. He was NOT a "free reign terrorist" just because 'Merica doesn't like the Quds Force.

There is a lot of blood on a lot of hands. By this logic, Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria would be justified in killing Trump, because he's ordered actions that have killed Iraqis, Afghanis and Syrians.

Nations are not supposed to assassinate leaders of other nation's governments. It could lead to something like, IDK, a World War. Just ask Archduke Franz Ferdinand.

Caliman73

(11,742 posts)
18. No one is arguing that he wasn't responsible for problems and killing Americans.
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 07:45 PM
Jan 2020

The problem is that we DO NOT have a legal right to assassinate foreign leaders. If he had an AK and was actively gunning Americans down at the embassy, then it would be something legally justifiable.

Binary thinking is usually not something that Liberals engage in. Yes our candidates all say he was a bad actor. Yes the world is likely better off without him, but it still does not make assassinating him on a whim, for political reasons, acceptable.

 

AncientGeezer

(2,146 posts)
25. He WAS NOT a "foreign leader".....he was a military terrorist...in IRAQ
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 07:58 PM
Jan 2020

That Embassy that was being "attacked" is American soil.....and NOBODY doubts who was in charge of that shitshow.....Do you?

 

AncientGeezer

(2,146 posts)
31. Nothing from commondreams is enjoyable....to those that are thinking humans.
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 08:10 PM
Jan 2020

I read the article from 6 days ago....laughable

maxsolomon

(33,360 posts)
36. I'd try to come up with more persuasive arguments,
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 08:18 PM
Jan 2020

but it appears your mind is closed on this topic.

As long as you pull the lever for a Dem in November, believe what you want.

Caliman73

(11,742 posts)
37. Yes he was. He was the ranking general in the Iranian Army
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 08:25 PM
Jan 2020

No matter how much you say it. No matter how much you do not want to accept it. He was a ranked military officer in the Iranian Army. Essentially he was the equivalent of the highest ranking commander of our special forces.

Our special forces who go into foreign countries and engage in missions that may be seen as not necessarily legal and against governments who might view us as terrorists too. Right? Or are you one of those people who think that everything that Americans do is legal and valid all the time?

Now, the embassy attack was the result of retaliation against a faction of Hezbollah that rocketed an Iraqi base and killed an American contractor (aka private military or mercenary). The US attacked 2 bases and killed several people. That pissed off Iraqis who support the militias (as you may know the majority of people in Iraq are Shia like the militia members and Suleimani).

The US hit Suleimani AND tried to kill ANOTHER Iranian official so the story continues to unfold.

Again binary or simplistic thinking isn't really our thing. Thinking that the US is always in the correct is also not a good thing, especially when corrupt idiots like Trump, Pompeo, Bolton, and others are in charge.

maxsolomon

(33,360 posts)
23. That's insulting and dismissive, AG.
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 07:56 PM
Jan 2020

I could give you a very long list of Foreign Government Officials "the planet is way better off without". US government officials, too, for that matter.

Just because Soleimani, Assad, Trump, MDS, Putin, or Kim Jong Un make a subjective decision to murder someone doesn't mean it isn't criminal. Per the Iraqi PM (our ally), Soleimani was on a mission to negotiate a reduction in tensions with SA.

Justify your position with objective arguments, not appeals to emotion.

 

AncientGeezer

(2,146 posts)
26. I'll justify it....hundreds of dead Americans at the hands of the dead terrorist
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 08:03 PM
Jan 2020

He won't order more hits on Americans...he can't

Caliman73

(11,742 posts)
38. They have already named his successor.
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 08:29 PM
Jan 2020

As big as he was, his death means little to Iran's strategy. In fact his death has helped advance that strategy. Before, Iraqis were conflicted and there were protests against too much Iranian influence in Iraq. There were massive protests in Iran against the regime. Since the killing, Iraq is booting US troops (which is what the Iranian backed militias wanted). The protests in Iran? Gone. They are unified now against the US killing a state official.

So, okay we took out a bad guy, that was fungible and in its place we have turned the whole region against us.

That sounds like an awesome strategy.

 

AncientGeezer

(2,146 posts)
40. Named a successor...after what happened to his predecessor....(think this out)
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 08:45 PM
Jan 2020

How much do you expect a follow up terrorist to do....I suspect the "successor" is going to be WAY less harmful......the fear of drone hits and all...

If my Dad was a terrorist and I was his heir apparent after a drone hit....I'm out....not a terrorist anymore....women can dress as they want...no more killing gay people, I'm a nice Iranian General

malaise

(269,144 posts)
29. Who killed the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 08:08 PM
Jan 2020

Who killed the 290 passengers on that Iranian plane in 1988? Who overthrew the elected government of Iran and imposed the Shah on the Iranian people. I could go on and on.

My grandmother used to remind us that when we point one finger at someone else, three are staring back at us.
This planet has enough killers to share responsibility and to try and obey basic international laws to prevent more killing.
These days the US pays no attention to international law - ask the Iraqis.

magicarpet

(14,160 posts)
33. MBS,...
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 08:11 PM
Jan 2020

Mohammad bin Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud (Arabic: محمد بن سلمان بن عبدالعزيز آل سعود?, romanized: Muḥammad bin Salmān bin 'Abd al-'Azīz Āl Sa'ūd; born 31 August 1985), colloquially known as MbS, is the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_bin_Salman

Arthur_Frain

(1,855 posts)
9. I agree with you, but..
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 06:59 PM
Jan 2020

bluntly, drones used to kill people is assassination, isn’t it?

We kill a lot of folks using drones. Has the face of conflict changed enough that this is the new standard? We need to define how drones have changed the idea of what constitutes assassination.

maxsolomon

(33,360 posts)
14. Theoretically, we are killing extra-state actors. Criminals. Terrorists.
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 07:28 PM
Jan 2020

Not other government's soldiers or officials.

Or wedding parties. Or children.

maxsolomon

(33,360 posts)
45. Yes. He is. He is an Iranian Government official.
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 01:37 PM
Jan 2020

I'm referring to our drone-assassination (or other assassination) program that we've been running in Afghanistan and Iraq for 17 years. The targets are extra-state terrorists like Bin Laden or Al-Baghdadi, not other nation's government officials or soldiers.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Trump has crossed a line even Bush the Lesser wouldn't cross.

PatSeg

(47,560 posts)
12. Trump has set the tone
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 07:19 PM
Jan 2020

Now even relatively civil journalists are becoming more crass in their comments. I cannot recall a time when politicians and journalists casually talked about assassinating a foreign leader, as if it was no big deal.

malaise

(269,144 posts)
16. He is more crass about it but assassinations like this one
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 07:31 PM
Jan 2020

and numerous attempted assassinations have been going on for a very long time

PatSeg

(47,560 posts)
19. Oh yes, that is true
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 07:47 PM
Jan 2020

but people didn't discuss it the way they do now. The word "assassination" would be whispered behind closed doors, if it was uttered at all. Putin assassinates people, we eliminate viable threats.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
32. The logical extension of the Monroe Doctrine.
Fri Jan 10, 2020, 08:10 PM
Jan 2020

And the Monroe Doctrine allows the US to interfere in the affairs of every country in the Americas.

International Law never applies to anything that the US Government wants to do.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
44. No kidding, malaise.
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 01:10 PM
Jan 2020

It's really like we are living in The Twilight Zone. Sometimes I feel like I am going completely mad.

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