General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMersky
(4,982 posts)Mersky
(4,982 posts)Complaining about the amount of time taken by the House manangers
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)I just couldn't including because it's THEM
(at least Cippycup acknowledged that they barely had about 2 - 3 hours of a case )
Mersky
(4,982 posts)In THEIR kangaroo court
Hi, BRDS! Hope you got some goooood rest!
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)(still up at 4:30 am)
Mersky
(4,982 posts)Take a nap! Enjoy your weekend!
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)And definitely should take a nap at some point.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,349 posts)I'm debating with myself whether to watch, or just read here.
Mersky
(4,982 posts)A downer kind of circus with half-inflated balloons and dodgy clowns.
At least thats over til Monday.
chowder66
(9,070 posts)hlthe2b
(102,283 posts)BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)but wanted to confirm that all they had was talking points.
ancianita
(36,060 posts)Mersky
(4,982 posts)On DU is a start to revealing their ineptitude and complicity
___
Youre so very welcome. Thanks for sharing the load - and it will be a load.
underpants
(182,823 posts)BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)underpants
(182,823 posts)This guy is taking looooong pauses like hes waiting for someone with the rest of report to get there.
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)they have to extend it out to fill a couple hours.
Backseat Driver
(4,392 posts)Bad rash "Purpura, also called blood spots or skin hemorrhages, refers to purple-colored spots that are most recognizable on the skin. The spots may also appear on organs or mucous membranes, including the membranes on the inside of the mouth. Purpura occurs when small blood vessels burst, causing blood to pool under the skin.
https://www.healthline.com/health/purpura#pictures
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)Mersky
(4,982 posts)underpants
(182,823 posts)He has also repeated what Cipollone said.
Burden sharing. Thats their big phrase.
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)underpants
(182,823 posts)BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)Hermit-The-Prog
(33,349 posts)BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)somebody on MSNBC had said that the EU has actually done far more for Ukraine than the US.
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)I think that statement about Germany, etc came from that call readout (that they keep calling a "transcript" ) - and it was completely uninformed.
underpants
(182,823 posts)President Donald Trump wrongly said that Europe and other nations were not contributing to Ukraine, specifically calling for Germany and France to put up money. In fact, the European Union and European financial institutions have contributed more than $16.4 billion in grants and loans to Ukraine since 2014.
karynnj
(59,503 posts)They are claiming that we did more on the sanctions. In the Obama years, it WAS Obama, Biden and Kerry who fought for strong sanctions that were harder for our allies than us because they have more trade - especially fuel - from Russia.
However, Trump ignored Congress when it added sanctions on Russia in 2017 and was against them when they passed both houses of Congress. To have the chutzpah to argue that they did more on sanctions than EU is absolutely disingenuous.
ancianita
(36,060 posts)and how "dire the consequences to America forever and forever" is what the House is doing.
Get ready to unpack the ALT legal, and its ALT arguments.
First up, Germany and how it just talks and never does anything.
underpants
(182,823 posts)President Donald Trump wrongly said that Europe and other nations were not contributing to Ukraine, specifically calling for Germany and France to put up money. In fact, the European Union and European financial institutions have contributed more than $16.4 billion in grants and loans to Ukraine since 2014.
ancianita
(36,060 posts)politics.
Thanks for the first demolishment of the bullshit. We have to keep it up.
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC!!!!!!!
Arkansas Granny
(31,517 posts)BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)Zoonart
(11,868 posts)Every squirrel in the bag is coming out today.
Kali
(55,011 posts)OMG
dweller
(23,640 posts)it's all the Democrats fault, trying to change the results of an election, to remove fatnixon from the ballot ... blah fn blah
NO DEFENSE AT ALL !
useless 😡
✌🏼
ancianita
(36,060 posts)DonaldsRump
(7,715 posts)ancianita
(36,060 posts)Arthur_Frain
(1,850 posts)Not sure why.
ancianita
(36,060 posts)malaise
(269,022 posts)now he's turning it over to illustrate what they didn't do
dem4decades
(11,296 posts)Arkansas Granny
(31,517 posts)dem4decades
(11,296 posts)Arkansas Granny
(31,517 posts)dem4decades
(11,296 posts)ancianita
(36,060 posts)MontanaMama
(23,319 posts)they just dont want their heads on a pike...
Arkansas Granny
(31,517 posts)dem4decades
(11,296 posts)Mike 03
(16,616 posts)I'm already getting queasy.
underpants
(182,823 posts)President Donald Trump wrongly said that Europe and other nations were not contributing to Ukraine, specifically calling for Germany and France to put up money. In fact, the European Union and European financial institutions have contributed more than $16.4 billion in grants and loans to Ukraine since 2014.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/11/13/factcheck-trump-wrong-european-aid-ukraine/4178935002/
Arkansas Granny
(31,517 posts)malaise
(269,022 posts)Mike 03
(16,616 posts)malaise
(269,022 posts)oasis
(49,388 posts)live love laugh
(13,114 posts)and 24 hours for the tenth time.
underpants
(182,823 posts)live love laugh
(13,114 posts)underpants
(182,823 posts)That means whacked RW talking points and lies.
liberal N proud
(60,335 posts)What a sham
uponit7771
(90,346 posts)... during an official impeachment process when the president proffers utter stupidity like Red Don has done.
ancianita
(36,060 posts)NotASurfer
(2,151 posts)And maybe "thank you for helping to make the point on the Obstruction article"
superpatriotman
(6,249 posts)Next.
spanone
(135,841 posts)Kali
(55,011 posts)playing Schiff SAYING he was characterizing what dump said/did
uponit7771
(90,346 posts)Mike 03
(16,616 posts)phone call.
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)and it WAS a shake down. They can't possible dispute that.
They apparently had no idea that the House Managers were going to use almost 24 hours of time to actually introduce evidence so they figured they didn't have to "prepare".
And what they are calling a "transcript" is not a "transcript" - it's a highly edited "readout/call memo".
live love laugh
(13,114 posts)BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)and it WAS driven home. In every which way they could. That put the GOP on the defensive to somehow try to refute the mob-like atmosphere given all the mentions of Ghouliani and his shady role along with Parnas and Furman and all the other mob "associates". And now that call audio is out there with Drumpf yelling "take her out".
ancianita
(36,060 posts)live love laugh
(13,114 posts)In one fell swoop they are back to the transcript. Im only saying that every time they mentioned the readout it would have helped to add some thing like ...which was not an actual transcript...
ancianita
(36,060 posts)We have to dismantle it, point by point.
This isn't mere groundling cult thinking; it's formulated all the way up to the federal level.
This has to be addressed as at least part of the Democrats' election messaging.
karynnj
(59,503 posts)A transcript would have every word said - unless they were redacted. What we got was a Trump administration put out were their version of meeting notes. The length of them would not have covered the full time.
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)otherwise they would have distributed it far and wide if it exonerated him.
karynnj
(59,503 posts)I think they are trying very hard to convince at least those who might vote Republican that the case was rigged by the Democrats. To do this, they are cherry picking their own created meeting notes. It tells me they are somewhat aware that the Democratic case was compelling because calling something a transcript - when it absolutely is not - and then using that it was a transcript to argue that it itself is the true record.
The even bigger thing they are doing is burying the many months of acting against the ambassador. The current speaker even rehabilitated the corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor that the EU, US et al wanted out, praising him as good. Both of them are arguing that Trump did more than Europe and Obama respectively.
I think the reason for their relatively short time is because - as they said - the burden of proof is on the Democrats. It seems like they are not even trying to prove anything - just to create doubt enough to allow Republicans to say that it is "unclear" or "not certain" that Trump did anything wrong.
Knowing that they control if Trump is ousted - and he won't be, there entire goal is to convince the public of two things - Trump did nothing wrong here and the Democrats are doing this for political reasons because they hate Trump.
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)(and although I obviously don't work in the WH but did work in a federal agency) the "recordings" are usually digital. And the issue in this case was that the recording file was "moved" to a highly classified "server" (probably a special encrypted cloud space) and an electronic copy of what was transcribed (which had to include translations between the parties) was stored there as well. I think Vindman had testified that he had seen the raw translated transcript and he along with others on their NS team (as part of a group effort) recommended additions/subtractions/modifications - probably doing it with M$ Word and its "track changes" feature). Once someone above them "approved" the changes, it was apparently redistributed to the team and I think that's when Vindman said he noticed that his edits were not included.
So what eventually got released was basically a "redacted" (without the traditional "redaction" blackout) of the call - where there were ellipses throughout it indicating gaps of conversations.
And regarding everything else - there is nothing they can "bury". Their talking points have been debunked in the media and yes, all they can do is try to sow "doubt" in the Democrats' case. But there was so much in the case (to the point where people were whining about it being "repetitive and boring", that attempts to sow doubt can never reach every piece of evidence that was presented.
And agree that what you said is their goal but it seems every day, more and more comes out to completely blow them away.
DeminPennswoods
(15,286 posts)(at least on the US end) but there are a bunch of people listening in and taking notes. Then a "transcript" is written and passed around for comments, additions, etc. Vindman said the things he suggested adding/changing were not used.
ancianita
(36,060 posts)Satch59
(1,353 posts)Thats rich... defies logic that they can prove he did nothing wrong...will be comical.
bullwinkle428
(20,629 posts)as no one outside of Chumpworld has seen the actual transcript; only a summary of the call. Which in and of itself, is indicting.
underpants
(182,823 posts)They must be really proud of that phrase.
bullwinkle428
(20,629 posts)waiting right outside their door!
underpants
(182,823 posts)Theres going to a long line at the package stores when they open.
Mersky
(4,982 posts)And will use the word fake as cover for his lack of preparedness. He doesnt really need to be prepared when tRump has blocked all cooperation of witnesses. Thank goodness some of the witnesses defied tRumps orders and appeared for testimony.
IggleDuer
(964 posts)The ballots are already printed out? Whose name is on the ballots? Has the Democratic nominee already been decided? Sounds like the Repubicans have already rigged the election.
spanone
(135,841 posts)malaise
(269,022 posts)Lying liars
ancianita
(36,060 posts)malaise
(269,022 posts)By the way, I'm just learning that you can have two completely different sets of facts. I guess they really believe this alternative facts shit.
ancianita
(36,060 posts)All that winning and making America great.
The fascist reality -- religion, law, science, culture and all the 'isms' that go with them -- is strong with this group.
malaise
(269,022 posts)ancianita
(36,060 posts)s
Arkansas Granny
(31,517 posts)Didn't they make a big deal out of Hillary's server being in the basement? They also claimed she was operating a child sex ring out of the basement of a pizza joint.
Mike 03
(16,616 posts)realize how bad it is?
It's an 'absence-of-evidence' argument. He's pointing out what didn't happen instead of admitting what did happen.
underpants
(182,823 posts)Uh Oh OBAMA!!!!
Only took 33 minutes
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)I expect that even most of their base aren't watching because that kind expects that their "leaders" will "take care of it" for them.
ancianita
(36,060 posts)We're in lawyers wars.
Only those who can out-argue these guys can change this hyperrationalizing mindset in the halls of power. Because, right now, it dominates, however it's seen outside the White House or beltway.
snowybirdie
(5,227 posts)20 minutes to blame Obama for something.
uponit7771
(90,346 posts)... be better spent time.
C_U_L8R
(45,002 posts)Win or lose.
uponit7771
(90,346 posts)underpants
(182,823 posts)Don't hold their breath waiting on that.
uponit7771
(90,346 posts)underpants
(182,823 posts)I will repost this
President Donald Trump wrongly said that Europe and other nations were not contributing to Ukraine, specifically calling for Germany and France to put up money. In fact, the European Union and European financial institutions have contributed more than $16.4 billion in grants and loans to Ukraine since 2014.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/11/13/factcheck-trump-wrong-european-aid-ukraine/4178935002/
uponit7771
(90,346 posts)Mersky
(4,982 posts)The only reason the call was declassified was because he got caught - and it was improperly classified to begin with! NSC legal counsel, Eisenberg, copped to Morrison that it was a mistake.
underpants
(182,823 posts)She didnt say anything of the kind from what we know but Trump convinced himself that she did.
Self played!!!
Mersky
(4,982 posts)Was shrewd.
But then pupura just had to use his tone to say that tRump did us a grand favor. Was like a parent commending a kid for removing his fork from his brothers leg and just letting the one bleed. The fork shouldnt have been in his leg in the first place and take care of the bleeder, dammit!
underpants
(182,823 posts)Trump handed himself his own ass.
Mersky
(4,982 posts)He is grabby.
underpants
(182,823 posts)MontanaMama
(23,319 posts)how long it would take. Im kinda surprised it look 33 minutes.
underpants
(182,823 posts)Lets call it their ....uh....burden sharing
Arkansas Granny
(31,517 posts)never mentioned.
5X
(3,972 posts)robbob
(3,531 posts)Its like he took bullet point crib notes from last nights closing summation! And then theyre going to tell you the President wasnt given an opportunity to defend himself....
Luckily for tRump the GOPeers have already forgotten all the evidence from the last 3 days, including the closing summation, and werent really listening anyway, since they already know how theyre going to vote.
Pachamama
(16,887 posts)...assistance with Javelins prove that it wasnt about the withholding of military assistance.
Guess they are forgetting to mention that the Ukrainians got the Javelins with the conditions they actually couldnt use them on tanks. And that shortly after Trump had the military assistance frozen.
Wow - they are sleazy liars.
https://www.businessinsider.de/international/republicans-leaving-out-key-detail-trump-javelin-sale-to-ukraine-2019-11/?r=US&IR=T
https://crooksandliars.com/2019/11/us-requires-ukraine-keep-javelins-100s
underpants
(182,823 posts)There is a level of security required and the Ukraine cant meet those standards.
Its a requirement of the manufacturer and so we dont pay for weapons that end up in enemy hands.
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)THAT was the take-away of that call. :
(but that is too damaging and they have nothing to refute it except to cherry-pick people who were clueless as to what was going on)
Mersky
(4,982 posts)And were just 35 minutes in!
Kali
(55,011 posts)Mersky
(4,982 posts)Is speedy - careening through his barrage of garbage
Kali
(55,011 posts)Mersky
(4,982 posts)Hes been relatively quiet, BUT he retweeted live coverage of the opening arguments and then deleted it! Ha. Hahahahaha.
Kali
(55,011 posts)I got the first hour, gotta go to a real funeral now. will catch the recording or threads later. have fun!
Mersky
(4,982 posts)I give you my sympathies (not sure I could handle such today), and hope youre real kind to yourself as best you can this weekend.
Thanks for being in here this morning.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)I'll also bet that the Democrats are silently laughing. . .
Pachamama
(16,887 posts)dem4decades
(11,296 posts)ancianita
(36,060 posts)dem4decades
(11,296 posts)ancianita
(36,060 posts)in2herbs
(2,945 posts)lies if for no other reason than its historical importance. Haven't viewed Rachel's show from last night but I wonder if it will be in any discussion today.
underpants
(182,823 posts)The right wing has been saying this for a month. Now THEY are using THAT testimony in their defense?!?!
ancianita
(36,060 posts)Mersky
(4,982 posts)Never mind the texts, never mind the other fact witnesses, like Taylor and Hills calling Sondland as being on a domestic political errand.
Never mind that BOLTON comes up across much of their links to the scheme and he should be SUBPOENAED to appear in the Senate trial*
ancianita
(36,060 posts)ing
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)Mueller report - and THAT is completely irrelevant to this impeachment trial dumbass.
underpants
(182,823 posts)JohnQFunk
(409 posts)Sekulow is going to whip out "Crossfire Hurricane" like a severed head from a duffel bag.
Mossfern
(2,511 posts)The White House produced no documents and subpoenas were not responded to.
Cherry picking from the Muller report.
underpants
(182,823 posts)and specifically sent additional letters to 6 people to ignore subpoenas
ancianita
(36,060 posts)Mersky
(4,982 posts)The Mueller report might have had real teeth.
As Schiff said last night you cant have Article I, without Article II. Meaning you cant get to bottom of abuses of power/crimes when the offender in question can block the investigators.
Arkansas Granny
(31,517 posts)underpants
(182,823 posts)I think that's what he said.
ancianita
(36,060 posts)Continuing to impugn the greatest standing law enforcement body is treason, except when you want to end law enforcement in a nation of law, in order to force into existence a nation of men -- loyalists like these fake lawyers.
Kali
(55,011 posts)the usual - deflect, project and lie.
underpants
(182,823 posts)The meeting that didn't happen but then it did happen
Mersky
(4,982 posts)nolabear
(41,984 posts)dweller
(23,640 posts)and i have this image of a pinball careening around in his brain ...
is there a valid point there?
cause i don't get it ..
✌🏼
uponit7771
(90,346 posts)Mossfern
(2,511 posts)following his argument.
Mersky
(4,982 posts)So, Im right there with you. Its a salad of potential talking points.
nolabear
(41,984 posts)Ive heard Carter Page, FISA, Ukraine corruption...is this the right room?
Has it all been like this?
Mossfern
(2,511 posts)nolabear
(41,984 posts)Are they going to use this excuse? Of course they are.
underpants
(182,823 posts)Yes it's been a mess. They are using the "hearsay/no facts" testimonies from the Schiff hearings as part of their defense. At least the second guy did.
Suckitup is going full conspiracy theory.
Oh and "burden sharing"
Mersky
(4,982 posts)DeminPennswoods
(15,286 posts)cover to the R senators who plan to vote not to convict Trump and those who want to believe Trump.
I'm kind of surprised the WH lawyers are actually trying to present a semblence of a defense and not just galloping off on CTs and other craziness.
madaboutharry
(40,212 posts)It seems like he is reading off an outline of talking points rather than a well crafted legal argument.
Listing instances of holds on foreign aid is a false argument. Foreign aid can be held back for legitimate reasons, but not for the personal and political benefit of the president.
underpants
(182,823 posts)Uh, how many Presidents have there BEEN since 2014?
madaboutharry
(40,212 posts)So I guess it was just a way of making a gratuitous slight against Obama.
BumRushDaShow
(129,054 posts)C_U_L8R
(45,002 posts)and Alan Underpants Dershowitz?
I'm hankering some Saturday morning cartoon.
underpants
(182,823 posts)Okay I'll let that one pass