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femmedem

(8,203 posts)
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 10:20 AM Jan 2020

Ezra Klein: I don't know how to communicate how constitutionally dangerous the senate situation is

So last night I was on @allinwithchris and I realized I don't know how to communicate how constitutionally dangerous the Senate situation is right now.

We're not arguing over what Trump did. We're arguing over whether Republicans *want to know* what Trump did.
Sometimes this whole saga feels like a thought experiment where we keep layering on more and more extreme conditions to see how broken the Republican Party really is.
Okay, but what if Trump releases a call record in which he says Biden's name repeatedly?

Okay, but what if we also have him tell Ukraine and China to investigate Biden on TV?

Okay, but what if we have Republican appointees testify that he did it to the House?
Still nothing? Wild. Okay, how about this:

We get John Bolton, hero of the America right, scourge of liberals, to say that he will testify, under oath, that he personally heard Trump say the aid was contingent on Ukraine going after the Bidens.

John Bolton.

I mean, surely?
And the GOP's answer is...they don't want to hear it? That these are unsourced allegations, and their official position is they refuse to hear from the source directly?

Even when that source is John $*%@# Bolton? The guy they've been to the ramparts to defend?
How can you look at this and say the Republican Party isn't breaking our constitutional design and creating a massive zone of presidential corruption?
It's not that they've gotten all the evidence and they just truly believe Trump didn't do it.

It's that they don't want to know, because the more they know, the more undeniable it is that Trump did it.
McConnell's move in all this has been to create such certainty around acquittal that it's tiring for people to pay attention because it's so clear how the story ends.

But the story here isn't just impeachment. It's about what Republicans are doing to the political system.
And to be very clear, yes, I have written a book about polarization, and yes, stating the reality of American politics clearly is polarizing.

This is the point of the book: party polarization, at this pitch and intensity, will break American politics. amazon.com/Why-Were-Polar…
If Republicans in Congress can't act like members of Congress first and Republicans second then the system's fundamental design stops working.

We built a system around the competing incentives of branches, not the competing incentives of parties.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1222521721225449472.html

46 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Ezra Klein: I don't know how to communicate how constitutionally dangerous the senate situation is (Original Post) femmedem Jan 2020 OP
Agree. Eric Garland's twitter feed yesterday was very chilling in its intent and detail. nt in2herbs Jan 2020 #1
Yes, it was. Pacifist Patriot Jan 2020 #27
Klein's rhetoric is rather fuzzy. Yes, I know he's earnest, but he's hedging on the details. Eyeball_Kid Jan 2020 #2
Right. The Senate is saying it doesn't matter what Trump did, it's not impeachable Buckeyeblue Jan 2020 #3
I disagree with Ezra malaise Jan 2020 #4
Agreed. femmedem Jan 2020 #5
Or to use the phrase a previous Republican administration made infamous... JHB Jan 2020 #46
Occam's Razor, the simplest solution is usually the correct solution. The GOP is being blackmailed. usaf-vet Jan 2020 #13
Occam's Razor is correct, but thinking that the GOP as a whole, PoindexterOglethorpe Jan 2020 #21
I don't disagree but on the other hand the news today that MoscowMitch is handing out $$ in the usaf-vet Jan 2020 #25
BOOM! In other words, "follow the money." calimary Jan 2020 #24
Clearly ahlnord Jan 2020 #37
Welcome to DU. Great group of patriots here resisting the attack on our Democracy. usaf-vet Jan 2020 #40
It's a twofer: they got the $$$ and to break the Constitution live love laugh Jan 2020 #14
Agree Joinfortmill Jan 2020 #35
... CrispyQ Jan 2020 #6
Yes! 53 Enablers cp Jan 2020 #7
+1 bronxiteforever Jan 2020 #16
The Repub Party has been on this path for decades... Wounded Bear Jan 2020 #8
THIS. Godwin's Law, naivete, and media negligence/malfeasance combined. KPN Jan 2020 #18
The MSM can't come to terms with what they have allowed. Prepare for 1930's Germany redux in the US Sparko55 Jan 2020 #9
I Ingersollman Jan 2020 #19
also arguing whether nearly half of the country cares. The cult of lies. NRaleighLiberal Jan 2020 #10
33% of Americans Kaiserguy Jan 2020 #39
Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2020 #11
I'M so conflicted packman Jan 2020 #12
Amazing isn't it? Joinfortmill Jan 2020 #36
It needs to be said that if he's acquitted, every GOP at all levels should go bigbrother05 Jan 2020 #15
And, changing parties after they vote for acquital EndlessWire Jan 2020 #30
We're toast, tRump will stop at nothing to win njhoneybadger Jan 2020 #17
Even if he's dead Nasruddin Jan 2020 #22
I don't trust Bolton Mossfern Jan 2020 #20
WOW - talk about nailing the big picture problem... BadGimp Jan 2020 #23
It appears that... Newest Reality Jan 2020 #26
It's hard to turn away from this possibility. Mike 03 Jan 2020 #28
The Pentagon just might be THE last bastion to hold the country together. Haggis for Breakfast Jan 2020 #42
As long as we're still getting the truth- more or less- and are aware of the state of things, we'll coti Jan 2020 #29
No offense intended EndlessWire Jan 2020 #31
Extremely well said. BlueWI Jan 2020 #32
Trump isn't the only one trying to destroy our democracy. debsy Jan 2020 #33
well put. nt BootinUp Jan 2020 #34
The president is afraid of questions. Marcuse Jan 2020 #38
Is that quote real? Terrifying. nt crickets Jan 2020 #41
Sweet Jesus. MissouriLibrul Jan 2020 #43
If you thought that was frightening, check out the video. Marcuse Jan 2020 #44
"Enabling Act of 2020" moondust Jan 2020 #45

Eyeball_Kid

(7,432 posts)
2. Klein's rhetoric is rather fuzzy. Yes, I know he's earnest, but he's hedging on the details.
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 10:42 AM
Jan 2020

Klein ought to come right out and say that a Senate acquittal yields a collapse of the governmental framework, which will lead, very quickly, to a dictatorship.

We all know the implications of a dictatorship, don't we?

Klein sounds a bit panicky, and justifiably so, but he seems tongue-tied, if I can use the metaphor.

Come on, Erza. You're aiming at the target. Now, hit the bull's eye.

Buckeyeblue

(5,499 posts)
3. Right. The Senate is saying it doesn't matter what Trump did, it's not impeachable
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 10:43 AM
Jan 2020

But because they aren't calling witnesses we will never know what he did. It's crazy.

malaise

(269,053 posts)
4. I disagree with Ezra
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 10:46 AM
Jan 2020

ReTHUGs already know - they don't want the American public to know.
They all took Russian money and the COn has the goods on all of them - it's his preferred model.

femmedem

(8,203 posts)
5. Agreed.
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 10:52 AM
Jan 2020

In fairness to Ezra Klein, I think what he's also saying, in twitter shorthand, is that they don't want it on the record that they know.

JHB

(37,160 posts)
46. Or to use the phrase a previous Republican administration made infamous...
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 09:06 AM
Jan 2020

...they want to "preserve deniability."

usaf-vet

(6,189 posts)
13. Occam's Razor, the simplest solution is usually the correct solution. The GOP is being blackmailed.
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 12:23 PM
Jan 2020

Remember MoscowMitch and the NRA had millions of Russian dollars to pass around to "encourage support" but from the Russian point of view to create a tally sheet of who they had their hooks into

Also, remember the GOP senators that traveled to Russia for private "talks". A little wining and dining to create comrades. Then a menu of desserts to temp their к̶о̶м̶п̶р̶о̶м̶а̶т̶ ̶м̶и̶ш̶е̶н̶е̶й̶ [blackmail targets]. A little audio here a little video there. And the deed is done. Comrades for life.

Occam's Razor is a line of reasoning that says the simplest answer is often correct.

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exists two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the least amount of assumptions is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,862 posts)
21. Occam's Razor is correct, but thinking that the GOP as a whole,
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:14 PM
Jan 2020

or that most Senators are being blackmailed, is not the simplest answer. In fact, the blackmail hypothesis is a complicated one, and assumes that every single person is keeping quiet about the blackmail. Which would not happen over a period of years.

A simpler hypothesis is that they want to hold on to power and re-shape this country so as to keep that power. Period. And they will do anything to that end.

My offer of an explanation.

usaf-vet

(6,189 posts)
25. I don't disagree but on the other hand the news today that MoscowMitch is handing out $$ in the
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 04:14 PM
Jan 2020

impeachment trial to hold his caucus together. If that isn't illegal bribery it sure as hell should me.

Our whole legislative branch of government is fed on the money. The everyday search for dollars to hold on to the office. Without the office, power is lost and reshaping the country becomes a dream.

IMO that is why we have Citizen United and that is why it needs to go. Follow the money is still the simplest way to uncover the villains.

calimary

(81,310 posts)
24. BOOM! In other words, "follow the money."
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 02:03 PM
Jan 2020

Yep. Who’s bought ‘n’ paid for. Who is now owned. A wholly-owned subsidiary.

It was true back when “Deep Throat” advised Bob Woodward during Watergate. And it’s still true now.

ahlnord

(91 posts)
37. Clearly
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 11:16 PM
Jan 2020

You see clearly what is going on. Thank you for articulating this fact. The GOP is compromised, and terrified of being exposed. The truth is that they cannot win without cheating, rigging, taking massive amounts of money illegally, undermining the rule of law, subverting the popular will, bullying, and so on. I despair that we will be able to reclaim our elections and vote them out. At the local level, in our precincts, we need to insist on paper ballots, hand counted, such that we can restore confidence in the results. And we need to register voters and challenge lies that are repeated in the media and demonstrate and make phone calls and write letters to our representatives and our newspapers and ... whatever we can do! The situation is dire.

live love laugh

(13,118 posts)
14. It's a twofer: they got the $$$ and to break the Constitution
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 12:28 PM
Jan 2020

If they get away with both they’ve succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

Wounded Bear

(58,666 posts)
8. The Repub Party has been on this path for decades...
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 11:56 AM
Jan 2020

Those who have been warning were called "alarmists," were laughed off, and had Godwin's Law thrown at them.

Now? We're about to launch one party rule, with a deranged narcissist at the helm and a bunch of oligarchs less then two degrees of Bacon from the Russian mob pulling the strings from behind the curtain.

Scary times.

 

Sparko55

(52 posts)
9. The MSM can't come to terms with what they have allowed. Prepare for 1930's Germany redux in the US
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 11:57 AM
Jan 2020

All the main stream media keep trying to tow the line of both siderism. Fact is - it's never been both sides. The GOP has been playing by a totally different playbook for some time now and the opinion makers in the USA have abided them all sorts of get out of jail free, pass go and collect $200 tickets in the process. They refused to confront outright lies, repeated incessantly from the Reagan era on with increasing levels of subservience so they were not excluded from the press scrums, favored seats at the White House press room, and other perks they so desire all in the name of access. And now pompous ass Pompeo clearly lays out the new ground rules and excludes NPR from access to drive home the point, and still the press can't call out the crap.

I held out that the USA could recover from the Bush II years, let alone the Reagan-Bush period and was greatly disappointed in whole, and between living and working outside the US for over a decade during the past 25 years, thought it certainly couldn't get worse - and then it did with 2016 and Trump. Having lived in Germany and done extensive travel to many of the WWII sites both in the country and across Europe, and reading the history of 1920 and 1930's Germany, it struck me then and more so now, that the fever that gripped Germany in those dark days has descended on the US. And it leads to the unfortunate conclusion that unless the fever is broken soon, nothing will prevent the USA from the same denouement that occurred in Germany in 1945. Hard to say that, but the same toxic forces of rampant idiotic nationalism, combined with willing "religious" participation to bring along the sheppie's in blind subservience to the dear fuhrer sees a downward spiral that doesn't end well for anyone. And now we see the total evisceration of historically strong institutions and the demise of the Senate at the hands of the absolutely corrupt "members of the GOP party", and understand that yes history does repeat.

Ingersollman

(204 posts)
19. I
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 12:44 PM
Jan 2020

agree completely. Alas for the world, the US has enough firepower to destroy the world many times over and the insane willingness to use it, rather than change direction. It is liable to get really ugly.

Kaiserguy

(740 posts)
39. 33% of Americans
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 12:04 AM
Jan 2020

would love to kill 33% of there fellow Americans and 33% will sit back and say nothing as long as they are not the ones being killed. That is America today thanks to right-wing propaganda. It could get very ugly if you are not a straight white Christian Trump lover.

Response to femmedem (Original post)

 

packman

(16,296 posts)
12. I'M so conflicted
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 12:14 PM
Jan 2020

My heart and soul tells me Bolton is evil to the core - someone I would never have a beer with nor in my house. Yet, today I see him as the only person that may sway some senators against Trump. Cannot believe it would come to this.

bigbrother05

(5,995 posts)
15. It needs to be said that if he's acquitted, every GOP at all levels should go
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 12:30 PM
Jan 2020

The top of the party is clearly corrupt and willing to openly fix the election.

The top of the GOP legislators are demonstrating that they are willing to violate their oath of office to support the corrupt/criminal top of their party.

All GOP candidates at all levels are complicit through act or silence that they support the corrupt/criminal top of their party.

If the Dems take over in 2020, anything less than a filibuster proof majority in the Senate could allow the GOP to block the kind of legislation needed to reverse the rot injected into the system and might require Constitutional amendments to insure the SCOTUS doesn't overturn good government laws.

EndlessWire

(6,537 posts)
30. And, changing parties after they vote for acquital
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 07:48 PM
Jan 2020

will not fix it for them. They'll own the death of the Constitution forever. So, saying, "I made a mistake" will not be enough to resurrect their very souls from this most foul deed.

njhoneybadger

(3,910 posts)
17. We're toast, tRump will stop at nothing to win
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 12:36 PM
Jan 2020

Our only hope is he has a stroke, Heart attack, or something else and dies.

Nasruddin

(754 posts)
22. Even if he's dead
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:25 PM
Jan 2020

They will keep him alive. Animatronics, silicon patches, and anti-bacterials will keep the body in motion.
They have plenty of prerecorded BS they can play (what he's been saying lately barely makes any sense anyway).

Newest Reality

(12,712 posts)
26. It appears that...
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 04:24 PM
Jan 2020

It appears that panicky remarks about the situation are a bit in order, or to be expected.

We all may sense the fact that, once we cross over a certain, constitutional line in the political sand, we are not only facing a platform for literal dictatorship, (which I feel has been Trump's intent all along) but, as history shows, we may never be able to recover from it or return to any semblance of democracy again. Then, we get the boot that stomps on a human face forever.

There is already far too much wealth available to enforce it and at least three firms funded and dedicated to world policing, as well. You can call them security companies or mercenaries, but in this case, they equivalent to me.

That's the panicky part to me. In light of the most recent events, it appears to be happening and it is not a matter of speculation or mere theory. I have never seen our country so close to a Fascist dictatorship as this. In times like these, one wonders just what our military might do and to whom or what their intelligence in really pledged.

Mike 03

(16,616 posts)
28. It's hard to turn away from this possibility.
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 05:29 PM
Jan 2020

Chris Hedges once said a dictatorship can't succeed unless the military cooperates, so the importance of your last sentence is not lost on me.

General Mattis seemed to understand this president was dangerous, and tried to compartmentalize the Pentagon from the whims of a madman. But now he is gone, and the new Secretary of Defense caved to Trump's demand that he defy a subpoena for documents. So there's no reason to expect the Pentagon not to follow his orders on other matters.

Haggis for Breakfast

(6,831 posts)
42. The Pentagon just might be THE last bastion to hold the country together.
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 12:43 AM
Jan 2020

They do NOT swear an oath to the president, they swear an oath to The Constitution. That is our highest order of law, not the Oval Office.

Far too many people have the misconception - largely due to the M$M slant - that all military, active duty and veterans, are big trumpie supporters. NOT TRUE. Yes, there are some. But by no means the majority. He has lied to us, insulted us, abused us and denigrated our heroes. He has lost the vet community.

coti

(4,612 posts)
29. As long as we're still getting the truth- more or less- and are aware of the state of things, we'll
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 05:32 PM
Jan 2020

be alright in the long run.

EndlessWire

(6,537 posts)
31. No offense intended
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 08:03 PM
Jan 2020

but, we are all acutely aware of the fact that Trump is setting himself up as a dictator. The question will become, what can we do about it?

When this vindictive orange turd begins to arrest his opponents and enemies, who will stand up for them? And, how will we do it?

The very next thing we have to do is turn out in massive, overwhelming numbers to VOTE EVERY LAST REPUB OUT OF OFFICE. NOTHING LESS THAN THAT WILL DO.

Be prepared to shut the government down and do nothing but vote BLUE. Businesses, give your employees the day off. Our priority is to vote Blue.

VOTE BLUE.

debsy

(530 posts)
33. Trump isn't the only one trying to destroy our democracy.
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 09:51 PM
Jan 2020

A unitary executive has been a wet dream of the right since the Reagan years. They want a permanent state of Republican majority rule. Cheney and Rove are both big proponents of this ideology.

 

MissouriLibrul

(35 posts)
43. Sweet Jesus.
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 03:27 AM
Jan 2020

Did Miller actually say that?

Trust and believe, he’s the one running the show. It’s eerie how little we ever hear about (or from) him. Trump is just the mouthpiece chosen to spread Miller’s and Putin’s poison.

moondust

(19,993 posts)
45. "Enabling Act of 2020"
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 08:59 AM
Jan 2020

The Enabling Act of 1933 was a Nazi amendment to the German Weimar Constitution that was instrumental in making Adolph Hitler a legal dictator.

The "Enabling Act of 2020" will be a combination of two or more Republican votes in the U.S. Senate that will be instrumental in making Donald Trump a legal dictator.

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