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cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Sat Sep 8, 2012, 05:45 PM Sep 2012

The Tanner scale, child porn and a Government run Amok

Last edited Sun Sep 9, 2012, 11:48 AM - Edit history (5)

In the 1960s a British pediatrician named Tanner published a table of traits of sexual maturation in males and females scaled from 1-5, moving from pre-pubescent to mature. It is what anyone would expect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanner_scale

(Wiki has a diagram with drawings showing the various stages. I am not posting it here, but go check it out and see whether the female stage IV is obviously a child, and the female stage V obviously an adult.)

For instance...

Tanner III
breast begins to become more elevated, and extends beyond the borders of the areola, which continues to widen but remains in contour with surrounding breast (11.5-13)
Tanner IV
increased breast size and elevation; areola and papilla form a secondary mound projecting from the contour of the surrounding breast (13-15)Tanner V
breast reaches final adult size; areola returns to contour of the surrounding breast, with a projecting central papilla. (15+)

Tanner stage IV refers to the aerola rising above the contour of the breast. Adolescent girls tend to have "puffy nipples" where the aerola protrudes somewhat. Over time that usually flattens down, but not for everyone. There is a lot of variation in breasts and some women have "puffy nipples" for a long time, or even forever—particular if they haven't had children.

On the Tanner scale, "puffy nipples" are identified as typical in girls 13-15, and less typical as they mature.

Similarly, the Tanner scale identifies typical development of pubic hair. For instance:

Tanner IV
adult-like hair quality, extending across pubis but sparing medial thighs (13–15)
Tanner V
hair extends to medial surface of the thighs (15+)

That is, again, what is typical in British children (the topic of Tanner's work). In males and females public hair typically starts right above the genitalia and then becomes fuller and eventually reaches the inner thigh area. Of course, not everybody has pubic hair on their inner thigh, and some people have pubic hair on their inner thigh at 11 years old. Everyone is different. Different people are more or less hirsute, and develop at a different pace. Saying that pubic hair on the thigh is a trait of those 15+ is an average.

Tanner, back when he was alive, stated quite plainly that the Tanner scale could not be used to determine age. It is population averages of traits, and not everyone reaches the Tanner norms of "maturity" at any age.

But, amazingly, the United States Government has used the Tanner scale in prosecutions to try to convince juries that young women who have small breasts with protruding nipples are scientifically certain to be underage. This is the type of practice the state can use for ages until it blows up, which this did last year.

(Remember the west coast case there the prosecutor had kids testifying that most adults in town were engaged in Stanic rituals featuring child abuse? It didn't come unraveled until the prosecutor got to somebody with money who was able to hire a lawyer, and then the whole thing blew up. But the prosecuter had already gotten at least four guilty pleas for crimes that we know for a fact did not happen. It is easy to pressure people into taking a plea bargin for something they didn't do, if they have no maney believe they have no chance in the system either way.)


Using the Tanner scale is arguably sensible for stage I. It gives some scientific backing to common sense that a small child with no sexual development whatsoever is likely, an arguably beyond a reasonable doubt, to be under 18. A photo of a prepubescent child is unlikely to be a slow-developing adult. A small boy with no development whatsoever is very probably under 18, though he might be 9 or he might be 15. Both are under 18, so that's fine. (From High School gym class I can attest that there a wide range of development and some boys at 16 appear to be distinctly pre-pubescent.)

But to use a table of typical breast development or whether a girl has pubic hair on her inner thigh to argue that a given female is scientifically proved be 14 rather than 18 is utterly crazy. (And I immagine that anyone who was in a high schoool girls gym class can attest to that.)

And any prosecutor who would claim that "puffy nipples" are proof of being underage would be intentionally deceiving the jury. Anyone prosecuting a child porn case is probably aware that there are all sorts of websites and publications featuring countless 1000s of adult women with Tanner Stage IV breasts.

In fact, some folks recently did a study of the run of Playboy centerfolds (all models known to be adults) and found that many Playboy centerfolds would be classified as Stage IV, which to the federal government would mean they were, beyond a reasonable doubt, about 15 years old! This is particularly funny because Playboy has never, ever been a publication devoted to underdeveloped breasts. But Playboy does like protruding adult nipples.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/03/us-child-porn-idUSBRE88202J20120903

But if you show a jury a chart in a medical text that says, "Protruding areola (13-15)" and point to protruding areola in a photo and say, "Science proves..." you may be able to deceive a jury—particularly if the defendent doesn't have the resources to produce ten pediatricians to explain why that is nonsense.

And this brings us to Lupe Fuentes. She is a porn performer who happens the be a small woman. She is well under 5 feet tall and weighs about 80 pounds.

In late 2009 an American went on a trip to Venezuela and purchased a DVD at a flea market of material someone had downloaded from Ms. Fuentes' website. I was titled "Little Lupe the Innocent; Don’t Be Fooled By Her Baby Face," so the item was not purporting to be of someone underage, but quite the opposite. (Since the DVD was a bootleg of material from Ms. Fuentes website it probably lacked the stock 18 U.S.C. 2257 language about everyone being 18 that American adult DVDs all have, but that labeling requirement applies to the producer of the DVD, not the purchaser.) He had it in his luggage when he re-entered the USA. He was arrested at customs and held in jail for two months without bail. He was eventually given the opportunity for bail.

Fortunately for him, his public defender (!) had taken the extraordinary step of googling "Little Lupe" which led to a website called... are you sitting down, because this is a shocker... littlelupe.com, and also to Ms. Fuentes Myspace page. How's that for some Perry Mason stuff? He googled the name of the movie.

Here's her facebook, which is SFW. http://www.facebook.com/TherealLupeFuentes

Her website states "All models depicted are at least 18 years old at the time photos and videos were taken" and has the proper link to the 18 U.S.C. 2257 Record-Keeping Requirements Compliance statement, which tells you who to contact to look at her birth certificate.

So a federal prosecutor charged somebody with child-porn without making any attempt whatsoever to ascertain the age of the performer. A lot of times images of child abuse are untraceable, of course. But this was not an old polaroid in a shoebox. This was material from a commercial website, and easily identifiable as such in the space of mere seconds.

But it gets worse.

The public defender showed the prosecutor, Assistant U.S. Attorney Jenifer Yois Hernandez-Vega, the web site and gave her the age verification contact information, and even put her on the phone with Ms. Fuentes, but she prosecuted anyway because she thought she could make a persuasive case to the jury that this woman she knew to have a passport showing that she had been 19 in the video was underage, based entirely on her appearance. (And perhaps because Ms. Fuentes lived in Spain, so was unlikely to appear, and the defendent had no money. And yes, a plea bargain from an innocent man is a "win" for these people because it requires pleading guilty so the defendent can never effectively challenge it.)

And what was that evidence? "Expert" testimony. At trial, Hernandez-Vega called Alek Pacheco, A U.S. Customs agent and self-described expert in child pornography who concluded (presumably after viewing the video several times) that Fuentes was "13 or 14" years of age.

The state also called a Dr. Pedro R. Jaunarena who, according to court documents (PDF) filed by Hernandez-Vega...

...will explain from viewing the images in question the bodily features he considers in making his determination, such as the face of the minor, the breast area, the genital area to include the existence or non-existence of pubic hair, the height of the minor, among other factors to be considered to establish the approximate age range of the minor depicted and to establish that the relevant images depict minors under the age of eighteen.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/porn-star-lupe-fuentes-saves-man-from-bogus-child-porn-charges


Goodness... she isn't very tall, her breasts are small and she has no pubic hair. Was this perhaps the first porn this prosecutor had ever seen? As the reader may or may not be aware, most female porn performers these days, including some in their 50s, exhibit "the non-existence of pubic hair."

Since the prosecutor was continuing the prosecution despite voluminous evidence there was no crime, and no legitimate evidence that there was, the public defender emailed Ms. Fuentes, and even though the disc in question was a Venezuelan bootleg from her website (which would not have pleased her) she flew in to testify.

Little Lupe herself would have to fly to Puerto Rico, show her passport to the prosecutor, and testify under oath that she was really, really not 13 years old.

"My fans mean everything to me, " Fuentes told Asylum via her publicist. "It was important to me to make the trip to Puerto Rico to show support to someone who did no wrong."


The first witness we called was Lupe, he said. She took the stand and despite being very nervous testified so well and explained to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury that she was 19 years old when she performed in the videos for littlelupe.com. She also allowed us to present into evidence copies of her documents showing her date of birth.


The charges were then dropped.

But what if these images were not from a readily recognizable web-site? And what if Ms. Fuentes had not been available? The fact remains that the government uses absolutely worthless fake-science to claim knowledge of who is 15 and who is 18 based on the appearance of their breasts, how subjectively innocent their face looks, and their height. Oh... and of course that absence of pubic hair.

Why is Assistant U.S. Attorney Jenifer Yois Hernandez-Vega not in prison? Or at the very least removed from her position and dis-barred?
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Warpy

(111,332 posts)
1. She used the best experts available to her at the time
Sat Sep 8, 2012, 06:00 PM
Sep 2012

and those self styled "experts," Pacheco and Juanarena, are the ones who should be barred from ever giving testimony again since they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

The defense did a great job in this case. The DA certainly should have listened to them at the beginning and not pursued the case beyond that point, with an apology to the porn purchaser. For his part, he now knows better than to buy bootleg DVDs.

I do wish there were a disciplinary procedure for prosecutors when their cases fall apart but they keep on going, unwilling to admit they are wrong.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
2. She knew the girl's age before the trial started
Sat Sep 8, 2012, 06:14 PM
Sep 2012

so it is hard to paint this as incompetence.

And she didn't use the best experts available. She used experts who would say what she wanted them to say. Any pediatrician picked out of the phone book could, and would, testify that you cannot always tell a 14 year old from an 18 year old by appearance.

You have have to search pretty hard to find a pediatrician irresponsible enough to testify decisively that someone was 14 vs. 18 from a picture. But there are such people.

All lawyers have lists of experts who will say what they want to hear. That's not at all the same as the best available experts.

There is an age verification system in US law and, in this case, the little lupe site the material was demonstrably taken from was in compliance with that system. The prosecutor had spoken to the girl and knew what her passport said and when the website was made.

But she also knew that Ms. Fuentes lives in Spain, and that the defendent had no money.



18 U.S.C. ' 2257 compliance notice.

All models, actors, actresses and other persons that appear in any visual depiction of actual or simulated sexual conduct appearing or otherwise contained in or at were over the age of eighteen (18) years at the time of the creation of such depictions.

Some of the aforementioned depictions appearing or otherwise contained in or at contain only visual depictions of actual sexually explicit conduct made before July 3, 1995, and, as such, are exempt from the requirements set forth in 18 U.S.C. '2257 and C.F.R. 75. With regard to the remaining depictions of actual sexual conduct appearing or otherwise contained in or at , the records required pursuant to 18 U.S.C. '2257 and C.F.R. 75 are kept by one of the custodian of records listed below.

Nethole Services LTD
Strovolou 77, Strovolos Center, Flat 204
Nicosia, P.C. 2018
Cyprus

Managed by:
Sampson Investments AVV.
Chuchubiweg 17 Willemstad
NA, Curacao NA
AN
Phone:599-9-736-7181
Fax:599-9-736-7161



In fulfilling its obligations under Section 2257, relies on the plain language of the statute and on the well-reasoned decision of the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals in Sundance, which states that entities who merely distribute content, and have no role in procuring models or producing content, are exempt from on-site record keeping requirements.

All license agreements reflecting the location of the custodian of records for any material appearing at one of the sites listed above are kept by A Triple X Cash. representative

LittleLupe.com is an ongoing work originally produced from January 01, 2007 to PRESENT TIME and first released on April 01, 2007.


 

villager

(26,001 posts)
4. Like police departments gone astray, D.A's offices need to be financially liable
Sat Sep 8, 2012, 06:19 PM
Sep 2012

...for these bogus prosecutions.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
6. I think prosecutorial abuse should be criminal
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 11:30 AM
Sep 2012

and I always have.

When people who are persuaded to *confess* are later proved to be innocent, as happens, is suborning perjury involved?

How is conspiring to get someone executed improperly not morally comparable at least reckless endangerment or negligent manslaughter?

I believe that crimes done under color of authority or in abuse of office are the worst crimes. They are the most damaging to our entire system ad way of life.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
5. Typical overzealous prosecutor with her eye solely on her career with no thought at all for
Sat Sep 8, 2012, 06:24 PM
Sep 2012

the lives she will ruin in her endless pursuit of fame and fortune.

Here's a solution, take the politics out of prosecution. Only a fool would believe that any prosecutor with a conviction rate in the high 90's hasn't locked up more than a few innocent people.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
3. There is too little effective oversight for prosecutors.
Sat Sep 8, 2012, 06:16 PM
Sep 2012

At all levels of government. They get away with all kinds of misbehavior.

Someone should file a complaint against that Assistant USA.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
7. Let me guess, the prosecutor is elected?
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 12:12 PM
Sep 2012

Because it seems these out of control prosecutors all seem to be aiming to look "tough on crime" so they get relected.

A prosecutor should NEVER, EVER, EVER be a political post.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
9. No, but federal prosecutors like to rack up an impressive list of courtroom victories...
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 02:53 PM
Sep 2012

...for when they run for elective office down the road.

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