...and once they were established in the Americas, they set about to do the same to anyone that did not believe in the same god.

although they they did persecute their fellow Christians who were Catholics.

...unfortunately, human history has far too many examples of this type of behaviors.

"Choose your enemies carefully because you may eventually become what they are."

of these lines.

We fought a civil war to emancipate slaves from ugly hateful stupid people, who after the civil war instituted Jim Crow laws to keep blacks down. Do you doubt that Trump's people would happily reinstitute slavery and/or genocide if they could?

They continue the fight. Weird part...
Those were Southern Democrats, and now they are Pukes....

Weird, huh?

You were saying about my ancestors coming here from Europe?

I just think your opening post suggests an overly broad generalization.

You do know how may ancestors fared in Europe. Right?

so of course I know

...Poor white's (mostly indentured) were still one rung up the poor house's ladder compared to black slaves.

unfortunately it continues to this day - just remove the word 'slave' and change the term 'indentured' to the modern term of 'in debt'.

It was the Irish they abused before Africans

Not all white people were slave holders, nor were all white people guilty of keeping any class of people down. There have been many white people through the years that fought with their lives to HELP black people, Jews, Asians, and Native Americans to live free.

I hope that painting white people as racist whole cloth doesn't become a habit that divides decent people from one another, as the russian bots would love to see.

which is why she said many - she did not say most

I'm just becoming concerned about some of the things Joy has been saying lately. I've always wished, when one of the nighttime MSNBC pundits was away, that Joy would be the one to take over. She's always been clear, articulate and really hits the nail on the head. She doesn't pull her punches, but her punches are so cleanly delivered. I've wished she had her own prime time segment.

But starting last week, she took up the mantle of some very wealthy black stars that were insinuating that African Americans should stay home next election if Joe Biden doesn't choose a black woman as the VP candidate, and if certain things that would help the black community were not addressed to their liking. It sounded like a threat.

That insinuated threat sounded a great deal to me like russian-planted tactics to divide (which is ALL in the world they want to do to the USA....well, that and hacking the voting machines).

Russians start planting ideas across the spectrum to stir up deep-seated psychological issues in the American psyche that they can use to divide us. They are masters at it. They're doing it to the right with all these conspiracy theories and nazi-encouraging predispositions, well, and putting trump in as president. And they're doing it to the left with stirring up Bernie bots and now with trying to turn black Americans against democrats.

Can you imagine what would happen in ANY election if a majority of African Americans turned against the democratic party? More republicans get elected and they start taking away the rights already won by black Americans, which admittedly aren't nearly enough. Hell, I'm a liberal! Half the time I'M against the democratic party. But I'm sure as hell not going to stay home, nor am I going to threaten that I'll stay home.

Leading the charge to stay home IS russian interference.

for all the reasons you state

Any one of us is vulnerable to what the russians are doing. I just don't want Joy to get caught up in it.

But, I also believe that having White skin gives a competent oerson a good leg up over an equally competent and even more competent African American.

But, like everything in life, Race in America has it's complications. In my city in Florida, a Black Doctor is more likely to be from Africa or the Carribean than AA, so there is an attainment expectation playing into the whole sad spectacle.

Yes, many Whites fought to free slaves and many lost their lives in that effort. 40% of White southern officers chose to fight for the Union, knowing what that could mean for them and their families. But at the same time, the building of African American families and wealth has been constantly beaten down by racist laws up to the Civil Rights Act and even after that was passed, the specter of institutional discrimination still exist.

America has a very dark history on how AA have been treated. Robust male slaves were considered little more that breeding stock, one was said to have impregnated over 200 women to produce more slaves - just think about the grossness of that, some men that were forced (there was no other choice) to do that likely at some point impregnated their own daughters without knowing. My own family is a genetic mess, so much so that I remember my grandmother on my Mom's side as looking White (I was 7 when she passed). My nose is straighter than many Whites that I come across - it is so messed up that I warned an Africentric niece that wanted to trace our family lineage that she should be prepared for some surprises. My own family is a microcosm of the complexity of Race in America.

There are times when I have wished that when Blacks were all freed in America, that White society welcomed Blacks as equals and worked shoulder to shoulder to build a country moving forward, but we know that didn't happen at all - that is not to say there were not Whites that despised racism and segregation and fought them at every turn, but unfortunately, those Whites and their children benefitted from the same fucked up system that they fought against - so, though lumping ALL Whites into one mass is technically unfair to some Whites, exactly HOW will we ever truly address past and continuing inequities without doing that? It all sucks, but we have to start somewhere. There are times that I wish that we could talk about Race in America and how to get out of our quandary, but I believe we are far from that day, every time we take tentative steps toward having that no holds barred discussion, the whole thing veers off into acrimony and recrimination. Whites as a group (there is that unfair term again, but suggest a better classification) are unable to fully accept their very large role in us being where we are, African Americans as a group have been victimized, BUT we are also NOT blameless for us as a nation being where we are on Race relations and mutual respect. But there are rays of hope, I see some every day in my native South, we as a group are more integrated housing wise than in other parts of the country, at least in the part of Florida that I live in, segregation around here is more a function of wealth than race, although the specter of past discrimination plays into the wealth equation.

Generalizing like this is not helpful. A non-productive argument

They came to not starve. Nothing to do with prejudice. Once here they had to scrape with all minorities to get jobs and housing. In fighting of minorities and then fighting the powers that be has always been the standard.

and not just of the potato famine

One of the reasons I call Repukes
Feudal Lords.

It was against the law to educate the masses.

Same attitude as today.

Many were indentured to death in the British Caribbean as well. Montserrat is a very good example

asked our class if the original colonists came for religious freedom or for a chance of material success. Most of us thought religious freedom, but she talked to us about material success as a reason. Then we had to write an essay, defending which reason we each thought the colonists came.

Over the years, I've learned that many of the original colonists were disenfranchised younger sons, who wouldn't inherit property, or disgraced people who had a choice between prison and moving to the new lands. Georgia was a penal colony, for instance. Not sure about the status of women who came to settle. Unfortunately, except for white males, many other humans weren't tracked. My point is that Europe sent their dregs, who probably had models such as hierarchical entitlement, brutality, crime, always an eye out for the main chance, and general mistrust of other humans. Freedom and social equality remain shining gems to pursue, and I do think that that pursuit lies hidden in all of the surviving stories of heroes, history and altruism. Some of us seek enlightenment, but unfortunately, even dragging the mouth-breathers along on our mission doesn't guarantee they will ever, ever get it.

Australia was a penal colony as well.
Thanks for this.

I knew Australia was a penal colony. I'm not sure they have a better track record. We seem intent on painting the whole world one color.

My father's family is descended from younger sons, who left Kent, England in 1638 and landed in Connecticut. I believe many of these early colonists were sponsored by the East India Company. And in "Saints and Sinners" it was pointed out that these contractees, whose only purpose was financial gain, were a good percentage of the migrants on the same ships with those fleeing religious persecution. In Maine the Dutch and French arrived in the 16th C. for fishing, logging, the fur trade, and establishing land claims. Basically, America was founded by corporations, which makes Pres. Washington's anti-corporate stance revealing.

according to some genealogy reports. And seems to have had several others who made the trip later. No disenfranchised younger sons that we heard of. I'm 5th generation American on my Mom's side and 4th on my Dad's, as close as I can tell.

I didn't mean to lump everyone together. I was thinking that the people who got success the easiest had a leg up on those who got here and worked their tails off, or believed in the ideals The United States was founded upon and supported them. And the people who were clueless but saw the light and changed their outlook and others' for the better.

Back then, a lot of the corporations and governments were almost like a partnership, weren't they (such as East India) What the government couldn't do, they left up to business.

Basically, America was founded by corporations, which makes Pres. Washington's anti-corporate stance revealing.

... good and with loaded guns.

None of those who assaulted Martin or Arbery first by chasing them were arrested by the police

Important poin. There was a strange dynamic that defined the society created by what my legally insane brother refers to as the "European boat people." (This does not mean every white person, something I should not have to say but will.) Non-whites were considered less than human. Blacks were seen as domestic animals, and Indians as wild animals. Blacks were systematically treated in a manner to prevent them from becoming part of the society, in terms of education and rights. Indians were treated the opposite: force was used to attempt to force them into schools and a white life-style, sans rights. In both cases, women were viewed as the rightful target of white sexual aggression, and the men who rebelled were hunted down and killed.

. . .and those things do not necessarily make for better, more rational and compassionate human beings among those who were once poor and/or oppressed, or their descendants.





#newrostrong

of royalty and culture of principles of freedom and equality to arrive at that, though, didn't she? Not that there's nothing to note, but is that really ON POINT these days? And is ascribing this to ALL Americans of European background honest?

We are still the nation -- and WE are the current generations! -- who've greatly advanced equality for racial minorities, women, and LGBTQ+.

OUR great achievements in spite of RW domination of government are what ignited RW rage. AND, no matter how many hostile agents are stoking racial divisions by insisting all white people long to grind black skins under our heels, WE ALL TOGETHER are not about to let them and rabid RW reactionaries burn the nation down to erase them.

Sure, the widespread racist reactions to our recent great cultural advances are tragically real, and truth demands recognition. My problem is with the frequency and timing, as well as targeting, of very racially divisive and demoralizing messages as we battle for the future of our nation.

We know MSNBC is working to elect Republicans and defeat Democrats, and we know the RW powers are desperately trying to win by splintering away AA from the Democratic Party..

And, I'm very sorry because I once respected her, but we know Reid's messaging changed when she got her own show. Does that reflect the freedom to finally express herself or was it a requirement for advancement? My guess is both, but that the latter ruled and continues to.

It was powerful.

The juxtaposition of the way the Michigan State House MAGA protesters (fully gunned and camoed up) were treated by the stoic and silent police vs. the way the Minneapolis protesters were treated with rubber bullets and tear gas is stunning.

That should be on signs everywhere

people. I think he was right in his assessment.

I had two great uncles from SW Arkansas, brothers. One fought for the south and the other for the North. One was a Southern Baptist preacher the other an atheist. Go figure. While it is difficult to imagine walking in another shoes, it should be our goal as humans.

many have a way of morphing to “most”. Joy should choose her words more carefully, but I’d be surprised. She’s a divider in my view. And we really don’t need that from those who are purportedly on our side and highly visible today.

I get the point — and your point malaise — but geesh.

Young Minneapolis mayor mentioned that time span last night in referring to the mistreatment of minorities in the U.S. I was glad to hear him acknowledge how deep it goes.

Ironically, since 1892 the U.S. has made kids pledge allegiance to "liberty and justice for all." Apparently many of them never took it seriously.