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TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 03:55 PM Jun 2020

Aunt Jemima?

A lot of people are taking sides over this, but I leaning toward Nancy Green's side. Like a lot of kids, I grew up on Jemima's pancakes and syrup and nowhere did I, my family, or anyone else in the neighborhood have or develop any racist feeling over it. In fact, in my neighborhood Jemima and Uncle Ben were two of the very few black people we knew of who weren't entertainers and we respected them. Liked them, too. This was before MLK, btw.

Our attitude as kids, and some parents, too, were that the "Mammy" caricature was not demeaning to the characters but was sympathetic to them, and somewhat heroic.

Nancy Green, the first Jemima, was born into slavery, a condition she had no control over, and managed to make the best of it. Note that she wowed the Chicago Exposition in 1889.

https://blackamericaweb.com/2013/03/28/little-known-black-history-fact-the-history-of-aunt-jemima/


In 1890, a former slave named Nancy Green was hired to be the spokesperson for Aunt Jemima brand food products.

Nancy Green was born into slavery in 1834 in Montgomery County, Kentucky. In 1889 the creators of Aunt Jemima, Charles Rutt and Charles Underwood, sold the company to R.T Davis, who soon found Nancy Green in Chicago. The previous owners had already agreed upon her ‘look’ of a bandana and apron. Davis combined the Aunt Jemima look with a catchy tune from the Vaudeville circuit to make the Aunt Jemima brand.

Green’s identity was first uncovered at the Worlds’ Columbian Exposition in 1893. There were so many people interested in the Aunt Jemima exhibit, police were called for crowd control. Green served pancakes to thousands of people. People loved her warm personality and friendly demeanor, not to mention her cooking. Green was given an award for showmanship at the exposition.

As a result of her dedication, Aunt Jemima received 50,000 orders for pancake mix. Not only did flour sales soar, but Green received a lifetime contract to serve as spokesperson. She was a living legend of the brand until she died in a car accident in September 1923.


More on Nancy Green. There are, in this article, arguments both for and against using the Jemima image today, but here's their take on Green: (Oh, and is understandable if some of the promotional pictures are kinda vile these days)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunt_Jemima

The African American Registry of the United States suggests Nancy Green and other individuals who played the caricature of Aunt Jemima should be celebrated in lieu of what has been widely condemned as a stereotypical and racist brand image. On Nancy Green's birthday, November 17, the registry wrote "we celebrate the birth of Nancy Green in 1834. She was a Black storyteller and one of the first Black corporate models in the United States."[30]

Nancy Green was the first spokesperson hired by the R. T. Davis Milling Company for the Aunt Jemima pancake mix.[3] Green was born a slave in Montgomery County, Kentucky.[5][31] Dressed as Aunt Jemima, Green appeared at the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago, Illinois, beside the "world's largest flour barrel" (24 feet high), where she operated a pancake-cooking display, sang songs, and told romanticized stories about the Old South (a happy place for blacks and whites alike). She appeared at fairs, festivals, flea markets, food shows, and local grocery stores; her arrival heralded by large billboards featuring the caption, "I'se in town, honey."[5][9][31] She died in 1923, and was buried in an unmarked pauper's grave.


30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Aunt Jemima? (Original Post) TreasonousBastard Jun 2020 OP
Sorry for the loss of your aunt and uncle. Beakybird Jun 2020 #1
... Alacritous Crier Jun 2020 #9
Hahaha! soothsayer Jun 2020 #14
If that's the writers argument, they really don't get it do they... Canoe52 Jun 2020 #2
The "black mammy" a stereotypically racist charicature jcgoldie Jun 2020 #3
She died in 1923, and was buried in an unmarked pauper's grave. nykym Jun 2020 #4
What is Nancy Green's (buried in a pauper's grave after marybourg Jun 2020 #5
That little tidbit tells me all I need to know. Laelth Jun 2020 #17
For one thing, Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #18
What about Mrs Green's Pancake mix/syrup? MacKasey Jun 2020 #6
+1 JustFiveMoreMinutes Jun 2020 #7
She didn't have anything to do with the product LeftInTX Jun 2020 #8
I'm exhausted. Solly Mack Jun 2020 #10
No. Alacritous Crier Jun 2020 #11
It has been said, you don't get it. 5X Jun 2020 #12
So many whites just WILL NOT see this! bobbieinok Jun 2020 #23
It's not about you tho. WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #13
The fact that these racist stereotypes have become so embedded in culture gollygee Jun 2020 #15
Yup. Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #20
I would suggest you contact Quaker Oats ibegurpard Jun 2020 #16
I mean seriously, fucking listen to yourself. WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #19
Thank you. n/t Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #21
And they probably thought Little Black Sambo was a really cute little boy who lived 'not here' bobbieinok Jun 2020 #24
If it makes black people uncomfortable it should be changed. BannonsLiver Jun 2020 #22
That was the point of the OP saying they were standing with Nancy Greene . . . Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #25
That Wikipedia article makes it clear Aunt Jemima was based on a racist stereotype: highplainsdem Jun 2020 #26
You might want to research "Aunt Jemima " a tad more gay texan Jun 2020 #27
Maybe they should replace the Aunt Jemima caricature with GitRDun Jun 2020 #28
my grandpa always used hungry jack. i always was kinda ishy about the uncle ben & aunt jemima logos+ pansypoo53219 Jun 2020 #29
Her family is against her removal as a brand. cwydro Jun 2020 #30

jcgoldie

(11,631 posts)
3. The "black mammy" a stereotypically racist charicature
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 04:01 PM
Jun 2020

For you say that "nobody in your neighborhood developed any racist feeling over it" pretty much ignores completely how stereotypes work.

https://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/mammies/

nykym

(3,063 posts)
4. She died in 1923, and was buried in an unmarked pauper's grave.
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 04:02 PM
Jun 2020

I think the least we can demand is that she receive a proper burial place with honors.

marybourg

(12,631 posts)
5. What is Nancy Green's (buried in a pauper's grave after
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 04:03 PM
Jun 2020

Last edited Thu Jun 25, 2020, 05:03 PM - Edit history (1)

many years working and traveling as a “spokesperson”) SIDE? Unclear to me.

Ms. Toad

(34,074 posts)
18. For one thing,
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 04:51 PM
Jun 2020

She was never paid royalties for her work, or for the use of her persona.

It is pretty standard to discriminate against women and minorities by paying them as a gig, rather than for their creative contributions or their persona (name, image, likeness)

Here is an example of the practice in a more clear-cut example:

https://www.bnd.com/living/liv-columns-blogs/answer-man/article134070984.html

Instead of paying royalties, record companies — often owned by whites — would offer their artists a flat fee for a song. Unfamiliar with U.S. copyright laws, the artists would sign the contract, collect the fees — and lose all ownership rights (hence, future royalties) to the song.

They tell the story of Fred Parris, who wrote the classic “In the Still of the Night,” which sold between 10 million and 15 million copies. But instead of earning an estimated $100,000 in royalties, he walked off with $783. Similarly, Ahmet Ertegen, the founder of Atlantic Records, remembered having a conversation with a Columbia Records executive who said the company never paid its black artists royalties.

LeftInTX

(25,364 posts)
8. She didn't have anything to do with the product
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 04:12 PM
Jun 2020

The owners of the company and creators of the Self-Rising Pancake Flour were white.

She was just part of the advertisement.

5X

(3,972 posts)
12. It has been said, you don't get it.
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 04:34 PM
Jun 2020

Maybe I can help you out.

No one gives a flying fuck how you feel about it cause you don't have a dog in this fight.
As obnoxious as that is, your argument is just as obnoxious.

It is not how a random white person feels, but how AA's or people of color feel.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
15. The fact that these racist stereotypes have become so embedded in culture
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 04:42 PM
Jun 2020

that people don't notice them and aren't bothered by them is an example of why they're so problematic.

Ms. Toad

(34,074 posts)
20. Yup.
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 04:59 PM
Jun 2020

I'm battling that very problem with content I'm supposed to use that is provided by a 3rd party vendor. I'm refusing to use it.

4 roles:
* smarty-pants know it all, always saves the day with the right answer (gets about 45% of the atention)
* dumb and lacks confidence
* smarter but also lacks confidence (gets about 35% of the attention)
* confident, even when they know nothing, and given repeated chances at redemption when they mess up

Characters playing those roles:

White male, white female, black female, darker/hairier male

I bet you can't guess who plays which role.

When I discussed my concern with the vendor that this reinforced every stereotype I was committed to avoiding, I was told (1) I wasn't seeing what I was seeing and (2) it was not intentional. FWIW - one of my students described the roles essentially as I did - and even recognizing those roles, he was unable to connect the characteristics of the actors with the roles to articulate the problem.

When you don't even see the insidious stereotypes, it is impossible to get rid of them.

ibegurpard

(16,685 posts)
16. I would suggest you contact Quaker Oats
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 04:46 PM
Jun 2020

And let them know you disagree with their decision to drop plantation tropes to sell pancake syrup ...

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,355 posts)
19. I mean seriously, fucking listen to yourself.
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 04:52 PM
Jun 2020
I grew up on Jemima's pancakes and syrup and nowhere did I, my family, or anyone else in the neighborhood have or develop any racist feeling over it.
Actually, what happened is that you and your family and everyone else in the neighborhood grew up in a white supremacy, full of institutions that were dedicated to upholding white supremacy. This white supremacy taught you that racism was pretty much burning a cross in someone's yard, and anything else didn't mean to be racist, and so it was okay.

In fact, in my neighborhood Jemima and Uncle Ben were two of the very few black people we knew of who weren't entertainers and we respected them. Liked them, too.
Oh, okay, so what you're saying is that you lived in a white neighborhood.

But seriously, this makes no sense. Aunt Jemima was not a person; she was the personification of a brand. You did not know Nancy Green. Uncle Ben was not a person; he was the personification of a brand. You did not know Frank Brown. Capitalism dehumanizes, and this is one way it does so.

Our attitude as kids, and some parents, too, were that the "Mammy" caricature was not demeaning to the characters but was sympathetic to them, and somewhat heroic.
Of course it wouldn't be! After all, to the white supremacy, Mammy was a beloved figure who took care of the children of the family and made them feel kindly toward black people! She had such a big heart, and was a great cook, and never complained.

Who watched Mammy's children, while she took care of the children of her boss?

Ms. Toad

(34,074 posts)
25. That was the point of the OP saying they were standing with Nancy Greene . . .
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 05:19 PM
Jun 2020

Never mind that, since she is dead, we have no idea where she stands.

highplainsdem

(48,993 posts)
26. That Wikipedia article makes it clear Aunt Jemima was based on a racist stereotype:
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 05:27 PM
Jun 2020
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunt_Jemima


Aunt Jemima is based on the common enslaved "Mammy" archetype, a plump black woman wearing a headscarf who is a devoted and submissive servant.[8][9] Her skin is dark and dewy, with a pearly white smile. Although depictions vary over time, they are similar to the common attire and physical features of "mammy" characters throughout history.[10][11][12][13][14]

The term "Aunt" in this context was a southern form of address used with older enslaved peoples. They were denied use of courtesy titles.[15] A character named "Aunt Jemima" appeared on the stage in Washington, D.C., as early as 1864.[16]

Rutt's inspiration for Aunt Jemima was Billy Kersands' American-style minstrelsy/vaudeville song "Old Aunt Jemima", written in 1875. Rutt reportedly saw a minstrel show featuring the "Old Aunt Jemima" song in the fall of 1889, presented by blackface performers identified by Arthur F. Marquette as "Baker & Farrell".[4] Marquette recounts that the actor playing Aunt Jemima wore an apron and kerchief.[4][15]

However, Doris Witt at University of Iowa was unable to confirm Marquette's account.[17] Witt suggests that Rutt might have witnessed a performance by the vaudeville performer Pete F. Baker, who played characters described in newspapers of that era as "Ludwig" and "Aunt Jemima". His portrayal of the Aunt Jemima character may have been a white male in blackface, pretending to be a German immigrant, imitating a black minstrel parodying an imaginary black female slave cook.[17]




And while Nancy Green was admirable in many ways, she was being exploited to sell a product she wasn't making much money from, and even used to tell "romanticized stories about the Old South (a happy place for blacks and whites alike)" (quoting from the excerpt you quoted from the Wikipedia article).

gay texan

(2,453 posts)
27. You might want to research "Aunt Jemima " a tad more
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 05:32 PM
Jun 2020

The name came from minstrel shows where black people were portrayed as ignorant.

Have a listen to the "Aunt Jemima" tunes from the era and tell me why black people shouldn't be offended.

GitRDun

(1,846 posts)
28. Maybe they should replace the Aunt Jemima caricature with
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 06:10 PM
Jun 2020

an image of Nancy Green.

To me that honors a pioneer in her industry.

pansypoo53219

(20,978 posts)
29. my grandpa always used hungry jack. i always was kinda ishy about the uncle ben & aunt jemima logos+
Thu Jun 25, 2020, 08:04 PM
Jun 2020

why not rebrand it as nancy's pancake mix? finally tried it & its so much better than hungry jacks.

put her actual photo on box?

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