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3catwoman3

(23,995 posts)
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 03:49 PM Jun 2020

Need financial expertise - please. Proceeds from house sale.

My dad died in 2011. Recently, my 98 yr old mom moved near me (finally), and her house sold. 5 hours on the market, buyer offered $11,000 over asking price. In 2007, my parents put the house in trust to me to protect assets from Medicaid in case there were nursing home stays in the future. Happily, there were not. I also have durable power of attorney.

When the check arrived from the law office, it was made out to the trust, not to me, the trustee, nor to my mom. The law office says this is the only way they can do it. Our bank wants to know if I want to open a trust account, or a tax ID account. They were not able to tell me much about the advantages and disadvantages of these types of accounts.

We need something liquid that I can write checks from to pay my mom's living expenses that are not covered by her income, to be able to give some to my sons, her only 2 and totally adored grandsons, and to use for improving a rental property she and I co-own.

I know there are all many of experts her on DU, in just about any field one could think of. I am in pediatrics, and this is totally not my area of knowledge. I await your input.

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Need financial expertise - please. Proceeds from house sale. (Original Post) 3catwoman3 Jun 2020 OP
A checking account owned by a trust is the Phoenix61 Jun 2020 #1
This. Sogo Jun 2020 #5
Excellent advice. There are tax implications. Phoenix61 Jun 2020 #6
Exactly. I've had to handle a similar situation. The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2020 #8
If your bank doesn't have a trust department.... lastlib Jun 2020 #13
My parents used a bank that was bought by... Phoenix61 Jun 2020 #14
We had a trust account for my Grandpa's estate OriginalGeek Jun 2020 #2
I did exactly the same thing. Crazyleftie Jun 2020 #3
Open the trust checking account With you as the trustee. CincyDem Jun 2020 #4
Free legal advice (which is what you are asking for here) is worth what you pay for it. euphorb Jun 2020 #7
There are many attorneys here at DU, and what the poster... brush Jun 2020 #10
I have been a DU member long enough to see many occasions where members have requested advice... 3catwoman3 Jun 2020 #11
Would you expect a doctor to charge you nothing? This is a substantial amount of money pnwmom Jun 2020 #9
Actually, at my practice, my physician colleagues and I... 3catwoman3 Jun 2020 #12
You give free advice to people who aren't patients? Wow. n/t pnwmom Jun 2020 #15
No, they are our own patients. 3catwoman3 Jun 2020 #17
Okay, so that's different from expecting to get good legal advice from strangers online, right? pnwmom Jun 2020 #19
I do think there is a difference between medical advice and financial/legal advice. 3catwoman3 Jun 2020 #22
You need to consult an attorney who specializes in elder law, medicaid, & special needs trusts. Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #16
She is not on Medicaid. 3catwoman3 Jun 2020 #18
Is there a reason you don't want the lawyer who set up the trust to advise you pnwmom Jun 2020 #20
That law firm closed its local office that was near my mother, and... 3catwoman3 Jun 2020 #24
We had to close estates of relatives who lived in other states. All we needed pnwmom Jun 2020 #26
Good. I misread it then. Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #30
You do not put a house "in trust". You create a trust, then convey the property to the trust Mr. Ected Jun 2020 #21
I did ask them to reissue the check in just that fashion, and... 3catwoman3 Jun 2020 #23
Might be a state law. In Georgia the way I laid it out was the legal norm until recently Mr. Ected Jun 2020 #27
I work in pediatrics, so apologies for any... 3catwoman3 Jun 2020 #25
No, I hope what I wrote makes sense Mr. Ected Jun 2020 #28
Talk to an attorney pronto. Xolodno Jun 2020 #29
Speak with the firm who established the trust for you. herding cats Jun 2020 #31

Phoenix61

(17,006 posts)
1. A checking account owned by a trust is the
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 04:00 PM
Jun 2020

same as any other checking account. Think of a trust as a person. Typically, they are revocable until the people who create them die and then the person they designated becomes the trustee. If your mom is the trustee she needs to go to the bank with the trust papers and open an account in the name of the trust. DO.NOT let the normal bank flunkie attempt this. You want someone familiar with trust accounts. She should be able to put you as a signee on the trust account. Your power of attorney is useless for a trust. I learned all of this the hard way.

The trust should be using your mom’s social as taxes will be paid on her income tax return.

Sogo

(4,986 posts)
5. This.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 04:22 PM
Jun 2020

If it all seems too daunting, talk to a tax attorney.

My CPA is also an attorney. His advice is impeccable.

Phoenix61

(17,006 posts)
6. Excellent advice. There are tax implications.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 04:25 PM
Jun 2020

Definitely don’t want to trust the person at the bank. I ended up dealing with only the VP at the bank because the underlings screwed things up so badly.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,706 posts)
8. Exactly. I've had to handle a similar situation.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 04:33 PM
Jun 2020

It's not especially complicated (you have to do the same thing for an estate if you're the executor in order to pay the estate's last expenses). Go to a bank officer with the trust documents and have him/her open a checking account in the name of the trust, and then the trustee can use the account to pay bills and expenses of the trust. The trustee would probably sign them as "Jane Doe, Trustee." The particulars will have to be based on what's in the trust document, though.

lastlib

(23,238 posts)
13. If your bank doesn't have a trust department....
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 07:06 PM
Jun 2020

GO TO ONE THAT DOES! There is a level of expertise required here that most small banks don't have.

Phoenix is correct--the power of attorney is meaningless; the trust documents are controlling. If you are transacting business for the trust, then you should probably be named in the trust document as a co-trustee, or otherwise named in it as having that capacity. If you aren't listed as having that capacity, then a bank is not going to deal with you. You would need to have the trust agreement amended to include you.

Mom's SSN should be used for the tax ID number.

Phoenix61

(17,006 posts)
14. My parents used a bank that was bought by...
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 07:18 PM
Jun 2020

Wells-Fargo. Mom’s SSN check was going into the account so i was stuck with it.

OriginalGeek

(12,132 posts)
2. We had a trust account for my Grandpa's estate
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 04:10 PM
Jun 2020

I was on his bank account and and the executor of his estate and all the money from life insurance payouts and everything went to the "estate of OG's Grandpa" account. I had a check book and a debit card for the account and paid for funeral expenses and settling the very few things he still had open.

I really didn't do much - grandpa was such a great guy he made provisions for everything beforehand and I hardly even had to think. I just had to sign the papers that disbursed the proper amounts to my younger brothers and he left me the house and his cars so we didn't have to sell any of that.

I'm not sure how much that helps you but if you have any questions I'll be happy to try and remember lol. It's been a few years now.

Crazyleftie

(458 posts)
3. I did exactly the same thing.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 04:11 PM
Jun 2020

but the trust had my tax ID as one of the trustees. In any case it is an inheritance and unless you have a fortune (i don't kn ow what the limits are, but if you are under it it is not taxable in any case), so it should not matter whether it is a trust ID or yours, unless you prepared taxes separately for the trust, which I did not because it had my tax ID. Talk to an accountant; I suspect you may want to dissolve the trust if it revocable and distribute the proceeds as inheritances however you wish

CincyDem

(6,362 posts)
4. Open the trust checking account With you as the trustee.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 04:14 PM
Jun 2020

Shouldn’t be an issue with the bank. Easiest way.

euphorb

(279 posts)
7. Free legal advice (which is what you are asking for here) is worth what you pay for it.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 04:29 PM
Jun 2020

The answer to your questions will depend in significant part on the specific language of the trust. I'm sure none of the previous commenters on this thread have seen the trust. It also depends on other specifics of your situation. Get an attorney. DU is not the place to seek legal advice.

brush

(53,782 posts)
10. There are many attorneys here at DU, and what the poster...
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 04:51 PM
Jun 2020

is asking in not a complex legal/financial question. It can be handled by a bank officer without having to pay for an attorney. Been there, done that.

3catwoman3

(23,995 posts)
11. I have been a DU member long enough to see many occasions where members have requested advice...
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 05:19 PM
Jun 2020

...of all kinds, and DUers generally seem happy to share their expertise/experience. Pet questions, technology questions, photography questions, health questions, cooking questions, gardening questions, etc, etc.

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
9. Would you expect a doctor to charge you nothing? This is a substantial amount of money
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 04:42 PM
Jun 2020

and it would be worth it to schedule an appointment with an attorney to find out how to handle this.

3catwoman3

(23,995 posts)
12. Actually, at my practice, my physician colleagues and I...
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 06:26 PM
Jun 2020

...give free advice any time we are on call after hours.

3catwoman3

(23,995 posts)
17. No, they are our own patients.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 07:51 PM
Jun 2020

I would not advise someone who was not a member of our practice.

We talk to worried parents who are not sure their child's problem can wait until morning when the office is open again. Pediatric offices have done this forever.

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
19. Okay, so that's different from expecting to get good legal advice from strangers online, right?
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 08:28 PM
Jun 2020

I just think when you're dealing with a substantial sum, like you are with the proceeds from a house sale, that it's worth it to pay an attorney for an hour or two of her time.

3catwoman3

(23,995 posts)
22. I do think there is a difference between medical advice and financial/legal advice.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 08:59 PM
Jun 2020

I will be at no risk of dying if inappropriately advised on this matter. If I give bad health care advice to someone, that could happen.

My hope was for some informed suggestions as to the most prudent path to choose so as to not waste a lot of time going down the wrong path. My husband has, just this evening, discussed this with our accountant/ tax guy. I thought it would be interesting to see what DUers had to offer while waiting for the accountant conversation. No one needed to respond who did not wish to, and a few people were kind enough to do so and were not bothered by my asking.

I had no intent to be a bother to you, or anyone else.


Ms. Toad

(34,073 posts)
16. You need to consult an attorney who specializes in elder law, medicaid, & special needs trusts.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 07:45 PM
Jun 2020

Do this NOW, before you do anything else.

Since your mom is on Medicaid, this not something to play around with. Medicaid, in some states, specializes in busting trusts to repay the money it spent on the recipient's behalf. And since you want to use money from the sale of the house to help your mom pay for things that Medicaid won't, they will likely look at it very suspiciously.

There are ways to handle this, but a lot of this needs to be set up in advance (preferably before the sale of property) - so I hope the 2007 attorney knew what they were doing. If not, it may be too late.

ETA: I'm an attorney who has done some special needs trusts work with the law in two states, and I have a sister-in-law who specializes in busting trusts. I would not touch this with a 10-foot pole.

3catwoman3

(23,995 posts)
18. She is not on Medicaid.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 07:54 PM
Jun 2020

Medicare, yes.

The trust was established by a firm specializing in elder law.

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
20. Is there a reason you don't want the lawyer who set up the trust to advise you
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 08:29 PM
Jun 2020

on how to handle it now?

3catwoman3

(23,995 posts)
24. That law firm closed its local office that was near my mother, and...
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 09:03 PM
Jun 2020

...there was no way I wanted her driving 90 miles away at her age to go to them. I live in a different state, 700 miles away.

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
26. We had to close estates of relatives who lived in other states. All we needed
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 09:09 PM
Jun 2020

was a phone and a fax machine.

You're right, your mother she shouldn't drive there. You could try phoning a non-local office of the same law firm and ask them what a phone consultation would cost. Lots of lawyers don't charge anything for the initial half hour.

Ms. Toad

(34,073 posts)
30. Good. I misread it then.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 09:57 PM
Jun 2020

I've just run into so many people who are trying to keep family assets - who use language similar to what you did.

I'd still go back to that firm and have them advise you.

ETA: I see the firm has closed. You still need final aproval from an attorney in the state where the property is. Laws vary considerably from state to state.

Mr. Ected

(9,670 posts)
21. You do not put a house "in trust". You create a trust, then convey the property to the trust
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 08:44 PM
Jun 2020

By a deed of conveyance. The trust agreement contains all the rules and conditions of the trust and names the grantor, trustee and beneficiary. Once signed and sealed, a legal entity is created. To find the answers to your questions, read the trust. The named trustee or successor trustee may act on behalf of the trust and obtain an EIN (tax ID number). Go to the bank with the trust agreement and the tax ID number and you can open a bank account on behalf of the trust, and be able to write the checks you need to write....as long as the trust agreement authorizes it.

By the way, the law firm probably should have made the check out to -------------------, Trustee of the __________________ Irrevocable Trust dated 1/1/2011, or something to that effect.

Mr. Ected

(9,670 posts)
27. Might be a state law. In Georgia the way I laid it out was the legal norm until recently
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 09:14 PM
Jun 2020

When they allowed conveyances to go directly to a trust, rather than to a trustee on behalf of the trust.

3catwoman3

(23,995 posts)
25. I work in pediatrics, so apologies for any...
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 09:05 PM
Jun 2020

...incorrect or confusing terminology/ jargon. We are outside my skill set.

Mr. Ected

(9,670 posts)
28. No, I hope what I wrote makes sense
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 09:15 PM
Jun 2020

Because if those steps are followed, I think you'll see it all work out the way you have planned.

Xolodno

(6,395 posts)
29. Talk to an attorney pronto.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 09:31 PM
Jun 2020

Each state is different in regards to trusts. My Mom got 100k, her share of my grandfathers house sale. We opened a trust account, cashed the check, then moved the money to a money market account managed by us, the trustee's. Then closed the trust account, the money was in the trust account for a total of five minutes. Thus far, no problems. We've been using that money to handicap the house (that I own) and making her life more comfortable. The reality, medicare, medical, disability, doesn't cover a lot and this was our one shot to make things better.

herding cats

(19,564 posts)
31. Speak with the firm who established the trust for you.
Tue Jun 30, 2020, 10:07 PM
Jun 2020

They'll be able to guide you as to what to do in your state. If they're not available to you retain another estate attorney to help you navigate the matter.

Best of wishes for you and your mom. This sounds like a minor issue and one they (the law firm) should have previously detailed for you, at least in my experience.

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