General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow I Became a Police Abolitionist
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/how-i-became-police-abolitionist/613540/Police couldnt do what we really needed. They could not heal relationships or provide jobs. We were afraid every time we called. When the cops arrived, I was silenced, threatened with detention, or removed from my home. Fifteen years later, my old neighborhood still lacks quality food, employment, schools, health care, and airall of which increases the risk of violence and the reliance on police. Yet I feared letting go; I thought we needed them.
(snip)
Policing cannot even fix the harms of our nightmares. People often ask me, What will we do with murderers and rapists? Which ones? The police kill more than a thousand people every year, and assault hundreds of thousands more. After excessive force, sexual misconduct is the second-most-common complaint against cops. Many people are afraid to call the police when they suffer these harms, because they fear that the police will hurt them. Thousands of rape survivors refuse to call the police, worried about not being believed or about being re-assaulted, or concerned that their rape kit would sit unexamined for years. In three major cities, less than 4 percent of calls to the police are for violent crimes. Currently, police departments are getting worse at solving murders and frequently arrest and force confessions out of the wrong people.
(snip)
Slavery abolition required resistance, risk, and experimentation. Black people rebelled, ran away, and built an underground railroad. Abolitionists wrote and orated against the peculiar institution. Allies funded campaigns, passed legislation, and changed the Constitution. Of course, people then felt a range of anxieties about abolition. Slave owners worried about their plantations and the profits that the labor camps wrought. White overseers feared joblessness. Both feared the loss of superiority. Some Black people had reservations about how theyd sustain themselves without the steady, yet violent, protection of their owners. Police abolition triggers similar anxieties todaymoral, economic, and otherwise.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)have become an occupying force.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)We are occupying a land as a former colony. I think that's just what the police are and always have been. They protect white people and the property of white people form people of color, and that's what they've always done.
Ohiogal
(32,050 posts)Happy Hoosier
(7,376 posts)Whenever I see these things, I see "alternatives" which are entirely unsatisfactory to me.
Someone very close to me was raped. Luckily, the police located and arrested the culprit. What authority can do that in the absence of some kind of policing force?
I believe our police forces need to be broken down and entirely restructured, but police abolition is not only a HUGE political loser, it is hopelessly naive, IMO. And the argument of "hey, we don;t know how we'll address problems, but let's do it anyway" underlines that, three times in permanent black marker.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Rapists are almost never seriously pursued, prosecuted, or jailed. And police officers commit a fair amount of rapes, even when on duty.
Less than 1% of rapes result in felony convictions.
Happy Hoosier
(7,376 posts)So the answer is if you, or someone you love is raped, even if you KNOW who did it, there is still no recourse? Sounds nuts to me.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)But there isn't much recourse for rape victims. It's just how it is, and it is horrible, but that is the case with a massively over-funded militarized police force.
Happy Hoosier
(7,376 posts)We need to do things differently, not stop doing anything.
Policing is broken. We need to break it down and build a system to do it right.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I'm glad they did a good job in that case but that is the exception not the rule.
----
What about rape? The current approach hasnt ended it. In fact most rapists never see the inside of a courtroom. Two-thirds of people who experience sexual violence never report it to anyone. Those who file police reports are often dissatisfied with the response. Additionally, police officers themselves commit sexual assault alarmingly often. A study in 2010 found that sexual misconduct was the second most frequently reported form of police misconduct. In 2015, The Buffalo News found that an officer was caught for sexual misconduct every five days.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.amp.html
https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story
Upon Further Review: Inside the Police Failure to Stop Darren Sharpers Rape Spree
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.amp.html
Police departments across the country have problems with untested rape kits. Sheriff Joe's department was one of them.
FBI did a civil rights investigation of the Baltimore PD and among the findings was they improperly investigated rape.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.justice.gov/crt/file/883296/download&ved=2ahUKEwi3uK6GibnqAhXGCTQIHQSDAI4QFjABegQIAxAI&usg=AOvVaw2cjPRpJ4TnSMCwC6jEanE-
I think the police & prison abolitionists actually know what they are talking about.
Happy Hoosier
(7,376 posts)That just says, well, you won;t have a recourse, but your current options aren't great anyway, so just suck it up.
I can;t see how anyone thinks that's a great idea.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,407 posts)Your acquaintance was indeed lucky. Where there charges, a trial or plea bargain, a finding of guilt, incarceration? Were these helpful or retraumatizing? Or both?
What if education, social work and health care had the resources (and, tbf, the dismantling of racist systems) they needed to prevent sexual assault? Science has a pretty good idea why men rape, whether acquaintances or strangers. These are problems that can be addressed, if the will is there.
It's a terrible electoral politics issue. But it must be addressed.
Happy Hoosier
(7,376 posts)"What if education, social work and health care had the resources (and, tbf, the dismantling of racist systems) they needed to prevent sexual assault? Science has a pretty good idea why men rape, whether acquaintances or strangers. These are problems that can be addressed, if the will is there."
Well, of course, we need all those things. Part of that fundamental rebuild of policing that I mentioned. But rape WILL still happen, and victims deserve a recourse, even if it doesn't have a great success rate.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)1. Disband all municipal and county police / sheriffs.
2. Create county / municipal level traffic enforcement units that do not have arrest powers, like a meter maid that can pull you over and issue a citation for a traffic offense but nothing else.
3. Move former detectives / investigators under the supervision of the prosecuting attorney.
4. Create county level, community oriented crime reporting precincts where folks can come to report non-emergency crimes that are then forwarded to the prosecuting attorneys office for investigation.
5. Create county level, community oriented first responders (what we would see today as a typical cop or deputy) that ONLY respond to in-progress calls and take no enforcement action outside of those calls for service. When not responding to emergency calls, their job is entirely to engage with the community they serve. They are to take NO enforcement action outside of those calls for service. This agency would have total civilian oversight.
6. All narcotics investigations / search warrants are to be handled by state level investigators that are well trained and supervised - no more local and county level yahoos kicking in doors over a joint.
By breaking up and delegating the duties assigned to police departments, we drastically reduce the us vs them mindset that has perverted police departments across the country. Community oriented law enforcers with civilian oversight who take no enforcement action when not called for service would encourage crime victims to report crime and law enforcement would be seen as as an ally and not an enemy.
Happy Hoosier
(7,376 posts)... and excellent fundamental restructuring of the police.
Ex Lurker
(3,816 posts)and sees someone tied up in the back seat. What then?
Same question about the community oriented first responder who sees a crime in progress.
In most states the county sheriff is the county tax collector and performs a myriad of other functions besides law enforcement. If you disband them someone else will have to pick up the slack.
A state level organization is going to have less oversight than a local one, not more.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)What does a semi-truck driver do when they see someone tied up in the back of a car?
What does an ambulance driver do when they see a building on fire?
What does the dog catcher do when they see someone in need of medical assistance?
What does the fireman do when they see a stray dog?
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Very dramatic. I think the most I ever filled the street with were flares to divert traffic around a serious PIAA.
meanwhile...
...
Ideally, officers would never take anyones life in the course of their duties. But given the number of arrests they make each year (around 10 million) and the number of deadly-weapons attacks on officers (an average of 27 per day in just two-thirds of the nations police departments, according to a 2014 analysis), it is not clear that these 1,000 civilian shooting deaths suggest that law enforcement is out of control.
With no real solution offered, cause this isnt happening.
But I'll take a free car along with the free house and no bills, please.
Woo hoo - let's go with that! Get out of jail free dumb!
Have fun with this...it ain't happening anytime soon. Just the opposite, as crime rates rise again for all to see (and not police crime), normal people will NOT give up their guns - now more then ever.
And community response teams might need em anyway...not every case they respond to will be unicorns and rainbows.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)As far as letting people out of prison we have the incarceration rate in the world do people here think that is normal? Even Bahrain & the King of Morocco released prisoners during the Coronavirus.
As far as the free car joke why do we give tax cuts and corporate subsidies away?
jmg257
(11,996 posts)More then happy to reduce situations police need to respond to - Who wants to tie up half a shift dealing with a homeless or mentally ill person? LOTS of paperwork, having to get them committed, transporting them, etc. (or just dump them over town line )
Much better choices for handling cases like that, for vehicle lock-outs etc..
PTWB
(4,131 posts)1. Disband all municipal and county police / sheriffs.
2. Create county / municipal level traffic enforcement units that do not have arrest powers, like a meter maid that can pull you over and issue a citation for a traffic offense but nothing else.
3. Move former detectives / investigators under the supervision of the prosecuting attorney.
4. Create county level, community oriented crime reporting precincts where folks can come to report non-emergency crimes that are then forwarded to the prosecuting attorneys office for investigation.
5. Create county level, community oriented first responders (what we would see today as a typical cop or deputy) that ONLY respond to in-progress calls and take no enforcement action outside of those calls for service. When not responding to emergency calls, their job is entirely to engage with the community they serve. They are to take NO enforcement action outside of those calls for service. This agency would have total civilian oversight.
6. All narcotics investigations / search warrants are to be handled by state level investigators that are well trained and supervised - no more local and county level yahoos kicking in doors over a joint.
By breaking up and delegating the duties assigned to police departments, we drastically reduce the us vs them mindset that has perverted police departments across the country. Community oriented law enforcers with civilian oversight who take no enforcement action when not called for service would encourage crime victims to report crime and law enforcement would be seen as as an ally and not an enemy.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)frogmarch
(12,158 posts)needs an overhaul.
https://www.chadrad.com/newsstory.cfm?story=46970
(snip)
Deputy Derek Colling shot 39-year-old Robbie Ramirez after a 2018 traffic stop in Laramie. A grand jury declined to indict Colling, who remains a sheriff's corporal.
Debbie Hinkel's notice of intent to sue alleges the sheriff's office failed to adequately vet Colling before hiring him. Colling was involved in two fatal shootings as a member of the Las Vegas Police Dept, which later fired him.