General Discussion

Chichiri

(4,667 posts) Sat Jul 11, 2020, 07:45 PM Jul 2020

James Madison on pardoning power

Someone asked if this exchange actually happened, and the answer is yes, it did. This is from the June 18 session of the Virginia Convention of 1788, which was held to discuss ratifying the new US Constitution.

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GEORGE MASON: Now, I conceive that the President ought not to have the power of pardoning, because he may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself. It may happen, at some future day, that he will establish a monarchy, and destroy the republic. If he has the power of granting pardons before indictment, or conviction, may he not stop inquiry and prevent detection? The case of treason ought, at least, to be excepted. This is a weighty objection with me.

JAMES MADISON: There is one security in this case to which gentlemen may not have adverted: if the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty; they can suspend him when suspected, and the power will devolve on the Vice-President. Should he be suspected, also, he may likewise be suspended fill he be impeached and removed, and the legislature may make a temporary appointment. This is a great security.

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So it's official. The GOP is betraying our Founders.

12 replies

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Highlight:

James Madison on pardoning power (Original Post) Chichiri Jul 2020 OP

James Madison was a slave owner. Throck Jul 2020 #1

Most of them were slave owners. elleng Jul 2020 #5

so edgelord obamanut2012 Jul 2020 #7

tell that to the Constitution that still is the blueprint of our entire government Takket Jul 2020 #8

Seems Madison was wishful thinking. George Mason asked the right question. C_U_L8R Jul 2020 #2

Impeach him again Mme. Defarge Jul 2020 #3

I suppose we should impeach Trump again ... and very quickly this time. Laelth Jul 2020 #4

That was one of the main arguments to 2naSalit Jul 2020 #10

Last time we were slow. Laelth Jul 2020 #11

I would not be troubled by it if they did... 2naSalit Jul 2020 #12

Where Madison goofed kurtcagle Jul 2020 #6

up until now, that seemed to be pretty accurate....... Takket Jul 2020 #9

Throck

(2,520 posts)

1. James Madison was a slave owner.

Reply to Chichiri (Original post)

Sat Jul 11, 2020, 07:49 PM

Jul 2020

His history is irrelevant.

elleng

(131,163 posts)

5. Most of them were slave owners.

Reply to Throck (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 11, 2020, 07:55 PM

Jul 2020

Our/their history is not irrelevant; it is our history.

obamanut2012

(26,148 posts)

7. so edgelord

Reply to Throck (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 11, 2020, 08:08 PM

Jul 2020

his history is literally our history

your history

Takket

(21,635 posts)

8. tell that to the Constitution that still is the blueprint of our entire government

Reply to Throck (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 11, 2020, 08:11 PM

Jul 2020

C_U_L8R

(45,021 posts)

2. Seems Madison was wishful thinking. George Mason asked the right question.

Reply to Chichiri (Original post)

Sat Jul 11, 2020, 07:51 PM

Jul 2020

And Trump is looking for any way he can to seize control and destroy our government for his own enrichment.

Mme. Defarge

(8,049 posts)

3. Impeach him again

Reply to Chichiri (Original post)

Sat Jul 11, 2020, 07:52 PM

Jul 2020

and do it fast.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)

4. I suppose we should impeach Trump again ... and very quickly this time.

Reply to Chichiri (Original post)

Sat Jul 11, 2020, 07:54 PM

Jul 2020

There's no need for hearings. There's no need for debate. Just call a vote and impeach him. This time, perhaps, the Senate will do the right thing.

But, according to Madison's logic, we are enabling Trump's crimes and corruption if we don't impeach him.

-Laelth

2naSalit

(86,817 posts)

10. That was one of the main arguments to

Reply to Laelth (Reply #4)

Sun Jul 12, 2020, 12:09 AM

Jul 2020

proceed last time. Just sayin'.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)

11. Last time we were slow.

Reply to 2naSalit (Reply #10)

Sun Jul 12, 2020, 12:12 AM

Jul 2020

Madison, himself, told us that we should proceed quickly ... even “immediately,” to use his word.

Why not? This precise issue was actually contemplated by our founders. I think that we should seize the opportunity and do precisely what Madison told us we should do.

-Laelth

2naSalit

(86,817 posts)

12. I would not be troubled by it if they did...

Reply to Laelth (Reply #11)

Sun Jul 12, 2020, 12:19 AM

Jul 2020

I am concerned about the opposition in the Senate. Everybody is concerned about the election now and many seem to have written off all but the bare necessities until then. But then, you never know, could be a more rapid process this time, as you suggest.

kurtcagle

(1,604 posts)

6. Where Madison goofed

Reply to Chichiri (Original post)

Sat Jul 11, 2020, 08:00 PM

Jul 2020

was in thinking that Congress would not itself be divided and one branch would be intentionally seeking to destroy democracy.

Takket

(21,635 posts)

9. up until now, that seemed to be pretty accurate.......

Reply to kurtcagle (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 11, 2020, 08:18 PM

Jul 2020

the founders just never really anticipated that this level of corruption would be tolerated by a party but at issue is that drumpf and the GOP have devolved from a political party into a cult. since drumpf commands the cult his followers are not going to turn against him.

the founding fathers would have anticipated that if a criminal came to rule the country, that that person's own party would work to impeach/remove because surely their voters would hold them responsible if they did not. But since it is now a cult, and the GOP voter is blind to the crimes of drumpf, in fact the exact opposite would happen. the gop has painted itself into a corner where stopping a criminal president actually HURTS them politically with their base. but, "fortunately" for them, it doesn't matter, because they not only tolerate the destruction of the rule of law, they embrace it.

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