General Discussion

Suburban Warrior

(405 posts) Sun Aug 2, 2020, 09:43 AM Aug 2020

Most Recovered COVID-19 Patients Left With Heart Damage, Study Shows

A new study published Monday in the JAMA Cardiology Journal found that 78 percent of recovered COVID-19 patients had permanent heart damage.

The study from the University Hospital Frankfurt examined the cardiovascular MRIs of 100 people who had recovered from the coronavirus. The heart images showed that almost 80 percent of recovered COVID-19 patients had structural changes to their hearts.

Sixty percent of patients had ongoing myocardial (heart muscle) inflammation even after recovery.

The majority of the patients were not hospitalized and recovered at home, with symptoms ranging from none to moderate.A

https://www.newsweek.com/most-recovered-covid-19-patients-left-heart-damage-study-shows-1521456

24 replies

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Highlight:

Most Recovered COVID-19 Patients Left With Heart Damage, Study Shows (Original Post) Suburban Warrior Aug 2020 OP

This is huge. milestogo Aug 2020 #1

Here's the study Suburban Warrior Aug 2020 #2

Kick dalton99a Aug 2020 #3

This is something Snackshack Aug 2020 #4

Nah it's not that weird Loki Liesmith Aug 2020 #6

Careful this could be a Bayes Theorem related error Loki Liesmith Aug 2020 #5

These were Germans, not americans lostnfound Aug 2020 #9

Doesn't really matter Loki Liesmith Aug 2020 #10

What percent of the patients in this study had heart issues? What percent were hospitalized lostnfound Aug 2020 #23

Germans are just as fat and unhealthy as Americans Drahthaardogs Aug 2020 #15

That's simply not true. Iterate Aug 2020 #21

Maybe you're right. Lucky Luciano Aug 2020 #18

We don't know, but a lot of CV studies have had Bayes related errors Loki Liesmith Aug 2020 #22

And of course there's the children... Native Aug 2020 #7

This is interesting Johnny2X2X Aug 2020 #8

Or ever? Laelth Aug 2020 #13

Not enough time has passed so we won;t know until testing 2naSalit Aug 2020 #24

Thanks for the post...good info KewlKat Aug 2020 #11

"Recovered" is probably a misnomer. Laelth Aug 2020 #12

Although this thing has been around probably since around the fall of 2019 BumRushDaShow Aug 2020 #14

Just so. Laelth Aug 2020 #16

I bet if the insurance industry gets its way this will be a pre-existing condition rurallib Aug 2020 #17

How many had "heart damage" before Covid? former9thward Aug 2020 #19

And this is only what we know so far PatSeg Aug 2020 #20

milestogo

(16,829 posts)

1. This is huge.

Reply to Suburban Warrior (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 09:49 AM

Aug 2020

Suburban Warrior

(405 posts)

2. Here's the study

Reply to Suburban Warrior (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 10:13 AM

Aug 2020

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916?resultClick=24

dalton99a

(81,597 posts)

3. Kick

Reply to Suburban Warrior (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 10:14 AM

Aug 2020

Snackshack

(2,541 posts)

4. This is something

Reply to Suburban Warrior (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 10:18 AM

Aug 2020

Never seen before as far as I can tell and puts the world in an entirely new realm of infectious disease.

Loki Liesmith

(4,602 posts)

6. Nah it's not that weird

Reply to Snackshack (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 10:28 AM

Aug 2020

https://www.heartandstroke.ca/articles/how-do-viruses-trigger-heart-damage

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3972975/

Loki Liesmith

(4,602 posts)

5. Careful this could be a Bayes Theorem related error

Reply to Suburban Warrior (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 10:22 AM

Aug 2020

P(detected heart inflammation | detected CV) = P(det CV| det heart inflam)P(det heart inflam)/P(det CV)

If the population incidence of heart inflammation is pretty high (and given American health it likely is) and the population incidence of COVID-19 is pretty low (it is) it’s possible to artificially boost the association between the two variables.

lostnfound

(16,191 posts)

9. These were Germans, not americans

Reply to Loki Liesmith (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 10:38 AM

Aug 2020

Loki Liesmith

(4,602 posts)

10. Doesn't really matter

Reply to lostnfound (Reply #9)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 10:43 AM

Aug 2020

As long as the denominator is small you’re at risk for this kind of error. Sadly most med schools teach frequentist statistics and don’t focus much on Bayes.

lostnfound

(16,191 posts)

23. What percent of the patients in this study had heart issues? What percent were hospitalized

Reply to Loki Liesmith (Reply #10)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 02:06 PM

Aug 2020

Did you read the study.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)

15. Germans are just as fat and unhealthy as Americans

Reply to lostnfound (Reply #9)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 11:51 AM

Aug 2020

They smoke more than Americans too. Like 30% of German men smoke. Like half of the young people smoke as well.

Iterate

(3,020 posts)

21. That's simply not true.

Reply to Drahthaardogs (Reply #15)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 12:20 PM

Aug 2020

Here are just two indexes of overall health, by country:

MEASURING OVERALL HEALTH SYSTEM PERFORMANCE FOR 191 COUNTRIES
https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf?ua=1

Rank Country Index
#25 Germany 0.902
#37 United States of America 0.838

Healthiest Countries 2020
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/healthiest-countries

#23 Germany 83.06
#34 United States 73.02

Source on the second one:
These Are the World’s Healthiest Nations
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-24/spain-tops-italy-as-world-s-healthiest-nation-while-u-s-slips (paywalled)

German life expectancy is about two years longer.

Lucky Luciano

(11,260 posts)

18. Maybe you're right.

Reply to Loki Liesmith (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 12:17 PM

Aug 2020

Is the second conditional probability known: P(det CV| det heart inflam)? Your assertion estimating its order of magnitude is not clearly true - maybe it is?

I’m surprised that Bayesian methods are not part of bio-stats.

Loki Liesmith

(4,602 posts)

22. We don't know, but a lot of CV studies have had Bayes related errors

Reply to Lucky Luciano (Reply #18)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 12:40 PM

Aug 2020

It’s just something to consider when thinking about these studies.

Native

(5,943 posts)

7. And of course there's the children...

Reply to Suburban Warrior (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2020, 10:29 AM

Aug 2020

"We're still wondering what's going to happen to all those children who have circulatory diseases and get better. Will they have some long-term effect?" Morse said. "In those situations, we're paying much closer attention than we usually do because we have some experience with coronavirus."

Other early studies have indicated other possible long-term effects of the virus may include blood clotting, strokes, lung damage and neurological symptoms, such as loss of smell or taste.