errrr, what's left of them...

I'm gnawing cuticle...

Who needs nails anyway! These freaking daily polls are making me go gray, I can't take it much longer.

was the one who said "no, you are wrong."

...is the kind of response I'm talking about.

Gee, genius, does the fact that you posted in my thread mean you're aching for attention, too?

How about dealing with the OP instead of dealing in insults?

Your OP is about how you are sad that people don't agree with you that the world is ending. Its self serving bullshit.

While the Liberal contingent rarely does.

Other than being an FDR Democrat, of course?

that was the other party, you know, the one that never tells the truth, that marches in lockstep to disaster if necessary rather than deal with facts?

We are DEMOCRATS. If you don't like that, we can't help it.

In what way does this OP actually serve the writer? The sarcastic suggestion that he's "apparently a terrible, awful person" might have been a bit over the top, but....

Some times things need to be pointed out. Obama did not perform terribly well during the debate and no amount of "HUSH! Don't be critical! You'll make the enemy win!" from fellow democrats is going to change that. Of course the President had his reasons, the anniversary, general exhaustion, perhaps other things. Yet it is his responsibility to stand strong for those of us who support him, it is incumbent upon him to do the best that he can - and incumbent upon us to challenge him when he does not.

No where did the writer imply that the world was ending.. that the election was lost... or that the sky was falling. He made several statements regarding the media with which I happen to agree completely (which is why I'm not going into journalism). The writer also pointed out that the media is the "terrain we have to fight on" - which seems to be an accurate statement.

Now if you have some valid criticism, feel free to share it and apply it whenever and wherever you feel it's necessary. Hell, be as insulting as you want to, I suspect most of us can handle it. If you are going to critique a writer though... perhaps you should have more than an assertion which has no evidence to support it. You might even want to try actually reading the post and possibly responding to various points that were made.

Whatever - do as you will, it's a free Country. There is something to be said though, about being respectful - especially here, where we're all supposed to be on the same damn side.

Seriously, it makes life on DU a much pleasanter place.

Ignore them.

?

take a break.

Was "floks" supposed to be "flocks"?

And is that a veiled attempt to make me feel bad because people responded?

And what in the world does any of that have to do with the OP?

A lot of people seem bound and determined to prove my point in this thread.

I think the folks in that thread deserve to have you argue these points IN THAT THREAD that you started; not ridiculed in this separate post; away from all of the mess you left behind and unattended to.

I've posted four today.

good one. carry on.

Wow, OK.

losing interest -- o-up! There it goes . . . .

(I still think you're the bee's knees)

You're chastising me for "making a mess" with an article in which, point by point, I made my argument. That was 1,500 words of argument. I did my part.

That was also a week ago.

Let me know how many threads per month I am allotted in order to maintain your standards. I'd hate to "start another thread" and have to absorb more of your wrath.

You know, or not.

Ugh. What an utterly, utterly useless conversation. Feel like I've been robbed.

P.S. You = bees knees, too. But damn.

you asked "which one" to which bigtree was referring.

and you can drop the hysterical act. It's a bit overwrought.

The other thread stated plain facts and drew no conclusions, other than that an entire season's worth of gains had been wiped out; which is true. This thread is an observation on the reactions to people who make statements of fact which do not put a positive spin on the current Democratic prospects.

They are two related, but different, subjects. At least in my view. I think that the reactions to WilliamPitt's other thread are very interesting. From people who deny the accuracy of the polls, something we were all laughing at Republicans for doing just a week ago, to people who are angry and assume that stating the obvious is traitorous, to those who are in despair. I confess to being in the dazed and despairing camp. I find it appalling how little it took to turn people away from Obama.

You see first they go attack Obama for any little thing. Then when the people are pointing out what is happening it has to be they are the victim. It can't be seen as anything of their doing that is causing people to disagree. These people will post thread after thread even making ones calling anyone who disagrees with them that you are the delusional one not them. There is not point of understanding with them instead just take all bad news and say the sky is falling. I'd like to see them say one nice thing about Obama. Come on you can all say one nice thing about what Obama has done. I challenge them.

Again.

LOLZ

to figure "all that" out, so why you think three weeks wouldn't be enough is a bit puzzling.

maybe you're among those who would require a statistically anomalous amount of time to process what would be pretty immediately obvious to most. My apologies for overlooking that.

The DoomSayers are trying play the victim. You know it's one thing to post something bad, but to jump in every time and try to SCREAM FROM HIGH HEAVENS THE SKY IS FALLING is really making DU look bad.

Again.

Look I have no problem with anyone who has a different view point then me. We could agree to disagree on any subject and I would be fine. I'm not here to armstrong a person into believing one thing. I'm here to speak from the heart. I actually have something at risk if Obama loses because of what has happen in my life this election has a great meaning to me. I'm one of those effected by pre-existing condition.

The problem I have is you play the victim every time. Can't you say something nice about the President. Come on I dare you to say something nice. Forget the Debate that changes thursday it's old news. Say something nice that the President has done I think it will help you or are you going to play the victim the whole way through thursday debate then declare that debate a fail before it even finishes?

Take a wander through the thousands of posts I've made here since the President took office. If "saying nice things" is your lone criteria, I'm sure you'll find more than enough to satisfy you.

The "victim" thing is gibberish I'm not going to bother with.

Look the only poll that matters is election night. Put the energy where it needs to be go get out the vote stop worrying about the debate. Stop worrying about what people on DU are saying about you and go get Obama re-elected we still have a country to run and no matter what we disagree or agree on I think we can both agree that a Romney in the White House is bad for everyone go put the energy where it is needed GET OUT THE VOTE.

It's hard for those who haven't really read through all of your stuff to know for sure . . . It's a type of judgment that's best looking into before making such a broad-brushed statement, like, Will Pitt can't say anything nice about Obama. That's just so obviously false, that I'll take the time here to say that I think you have as much respect and approval of the President as ANY supporter here. That shouldn't prevent you from criticizing him, when you think it's appropriate. That also shouldn't prevent folks from disagreeing (sometimes strongly) with you on those criticisms.

Throwing stones from a distance at you (as some have) isn't anymore credible than what they say they disagree with. I'd invite them to go to truthout and read through your excellent archive, and then come back and have a conversation with you as the Democratic and progressive ally that you most certainly are.

....no matter how many times you say "^^^This^^^ Again".

Just for the record, I share the opinions of those being critical of your most recent posts constantly critical of the President's debate performance.

We get it.

Now get over it, and let's move on, shall we?

Sycophantic, that's what it is. Reality is this: Obama stood back and didn't know how to respond to Romney's ever changing reality and the mountain of lies. The problem is this: Most people don't trust ANY politician to tell the truth and don't pay attention to details so yes, with 60 million people watching he bombed, BADLY and is paying for it in subsequent polls. People here need to stop thinking Americans are as politically aware and as informed as we are here. They AREN'T. For a lot of people watching last week, that might be their one time to really tune in and listen. Politics to a lot of people are BORING and since they don't trust anyone involved anyway STYLE will always trump substance.

Obama lost on both counts though because he let Romney slap down everything he's done and succeeded at while not offering a real counter to Romney's lies.

THAT is reality. But DU has become one hell of a sycophantic place since 2008. I can't tell you how many idiotic threads tried to say this was all Obama's strategy, the "rope-a-dope" and all that chess nonsense. NO, IT WASN'T. Obama and his campaign admitted as much when they admitted they have to change strategies for future debates.

This wasn't about giving Romney enough rope, this was about being a deer in the headlights and that's what Obama was.

And OF COURSE the election isn't over but we're less than 4 weeks away and any excuse for Romney to be leading or super close makes it EASIER FOR THEM TO STEAL, which if you have forgotten was their game plan from day one with all the voter suppression. All they need are close polls to make the media complicit with the theft later on and Obama's poor performance has done that. THAT is why this is such a big fucking deal.

So let's hope Biden actually takes it to that little piece of shit Ryan (unlike how nice he played it with Palin) and Obama comes out swinging next time out. When you're up 14-0 going into the third quarter you don't take your foot off the gas and let the other team back in the game, especially when one bad call from the refs can turn the game around. No, you step on their throats and keep scoring. You're here to win not to just do enough and hope for the best.

I too want to see Biden eviscerate that sniveling little creep Ryan BUT I fear his gaffe potential as well. If I prayed it would be thus: please, in the name of all that is good and holy and just, don't let Joltin' Joe shove his foot down his throat Thursday night. If he can control his habit of shooting from the lip, we'll have our win this time.

People around here get real pissy if one dares suggest that OBama isn't playing a 13 level chess game that the rest of us are too stupid too understand. OBama blew that debate. Period. And his people admitted as much, so why there's ANY argument....I don't know. Head in the sand syndrome...."La la la la I can't hear you" BS. Perception is everything, and the perception is that Romney won. And the polls are reflecting that.

that I knew would be required if I listened to Romney lie for more than about 5 seconds.

But from my perspective, having read the various analyses of the debate here, it seems to me that Obama was damned if he did and damned if he didn't, in a no-win posture. If he came out swinging at Romney, he would be tagged with the 'angry (uppity) black male' meme. If he laid back and refused to take Romney's bait, he would be tagged as the 'weak, Jimmy Carter-type'. There was no way the media was going to let Obama come out of the debate labelled the 'winner' -- those whores exist ONLY to sell advertising and they sell more advertising the higher their viewership is. If depicting this race as a 'too close to call' horserace helps them sell more ads, why by God that's what they'll do.

Romney has managed to alienate just about every demographic in the country, other than white males above 65. So I remain confident that those underlying realities will hold and this one debate and the media's portrayal of it will not materially change matters.

Putting heads in the sand and pretending everything is going swimmingly doesn't help anything.

remember '04?

in the awful, terrible person category.

What's sad, though, is seeing DU afraid to discuss FACTS.

was not fact. It's all opinion.

It's pointless to waste time attacking each other. Of course, we're going to disagree on things. Let's focus on hashing those out, but avoid the you/I blah blah blah stuff.

I know it's hard, but it can be done.

You got some pushback for a largely self-righteous post. It's not the end of the world. It reeked of ego and had no point. Backdating it to be some kind of purely informative message is just sad, Will. Move the fuck on. And you can "This^^^^" me all you want; I stand by my assessment of the post in question. It was me-me-me-ism at its worst. You're better than that.

The election will, however, be close, and we all have to move past these trivial conflicts toward a united front.

And not for nothing, but I love people who post on DU accusing people who post on DU of ego-posting.

Um...?

That was a stupid shortcut-to-thinking insult in 2002. Ten years later, I'm frankly amazed it still has life.

Thought I was getting a special call-out with "that I'm only posting this stuff in order to be able to say 'Toldya so,' which is my personal favorite," on account of this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1499893

But I guess it can't have just been me who saw your OP as a yet another I told-ya-so special, which, actually, wouldn't be that surprising.

I'm surprised a lot of things have survived since 2002, including the ability of some posters to go all manic self-referential when their proclamations don't meet universal acclaim.

So, how many OP's are you going to have about yourself now?

It's about his ego. It had no other value. Zero. Nada.

When WP finally decides to move on and stop with this nonsense, we will all be better off.

The people bashing you are scared shitless.

DU needs a dose of reality about now. Thanks for providing it.

You think that people are bashing you then fine take my challenge. SAY SOMETHING NICE ABOUT PRESIDENT OBAMA. Come on it's not that hard I know you can say one thing nice about Obama can't you?

...but AFTER the debate they're acting like he's not the same man they strongly supported for the last 3+ years.

They've got a bad case of Tweety-itis, and it's a very unattractive affliction.

It's time for them to move on and everyone to move on. We should be focusing on Getting out the vote. Imagine if they put as much energy as was put out in this thread on Electing dems instead of us all debating each other. The only poll that matters is election night. Everyone has a part to play in getting us their.

So what, exactly, did that accomplish?

I, personally, am still upset that he wasn't prepared for The Big Lie. It's their #1 debating tactic.

information in the short term 3-day job numbers indicating Obama has a 53-42 job approval in polling done Sat, Sun & Mon--after the latest unemployment report was released. It hard to believe a president with a +11 job approval is behind and the Gallup numbers may indicate better days ahead. A good debate by Biden and a revigorated Obama next week certainly would help.

the debate is over and done with it doesn't do any of us any good to continue this narrative.

The only thing that will make him lose is cheating and I hope the DNC has a backup plan in case that happens other than just conceding elections like they have in the past.

Don't worry about what the doomsayers have to pontificate on. They are just trying to muddy the water.

Someone with opinions have had their opinions questioned and now claim victimhood.

Film at 11.

Thanks, and by the way, all sweatsox are now 30 percent off!!!

But then I like calm reasoned people and to me that is what they do...they don't always attack attack attack.
But that said I stand with you and your right to express your feelings on the matter...and I don't see the harm in it and perhaps it even helps.

The DU "problem" if you can call it that is that there are folks that think they have to squelch any decent and would kill the messenger if they could...and I find them much more harmful to DU and the spirit it represents than shy-is-falling people.

Cheer up Will...we will get through this...and I will always respect your opinion.

...and the BS media's predictable frenzy.

(when they should have said "Whoa! Romney's photo negative!" and gone on and on about the lies)

The fact that she was right was beside the point, apparently.

It wasn't self-justifying foot-stomping. Indeed, that's the point of the myth.

and I thought the point of the myth was that it sucks to be Cassandra, while Trojans ain't doing so good either. But that's how myths are, they have many interpretations.

All they did was letting Paris back with lovely Helen, which made Greeks mighty pissed. And fall for the Trojan horse plot. Or were you talking about football?

condoms, but as long as we're on the topic of Paris, you do know she was another man's wife, don't you? Call me old fashioned, but I say when you buy a wife, then marriage is a sacred institution to be cherished among a man, his wives, and his harem full of slave-wenches.

complaints about Good old Days of Patriarchy. Suitors of Helen's sister got what they deserved from the brain behind the plot that Cassandra warned about, when he returned home after 20 years of traveling around and doing a mans job with Kirke and Calypso. Who didn't file complaints about broken Trojans against the man of the world.

upcoming debates.

The narrative of those saying of those who don't like Will's truth-posting seems to be:

1) Obama did just fine-- see, he was reasonable and Presidential!
2) Romney couldn't have won because he lied, a lot
3) It's all the media's fault-- especially the liberal media!
4) Well, maybe it *appeared* Obama lost, but it was all rope-a-dope
5) Any poll showing a Romney surge is biased!
6) You're all egotistical doomsayers!

We all want Obama to win. Those of us that thought Obama did poorly are disappointed that he didn't knock Romney out when he had the chance, and instead allowed a campaign on the edge of collapse to get a second wind. However, a vocal group here has determined that anyone posting anything other than sunshine and roses about Obama's performance (when the polls say otherwise) is to be pilloried and labeled a troll.

Not sure that this is the point of the myth, but it does illustrate that the gods are likely to be cruel, rotten bastards who treat humans as playthings.

is very familiar to those "doomers" who speak about Peak Oil, Climate Change, unsustainability of growth economy etc.

That's why it was a tragedy.

She wasn't just foot stomping about shit people could do nothing about, nor was she simply flying into (yet another) manic fit of self-justification. The fact that they could do something but didn't is the point. As for the posts we're discussing here, they singularly lack that quality.

But the gist of Greek tragedy is that not even acting helps to prevent the horrible prediction - destiny. Oedipus was predicted to kill his father, so the King of Thebes ordered the newborn to be killed - which didn't happen as we know. Gods sitting at the top of the mountain Olympos also killed their father Uranos, who had in vain tried to avoid destiny by eating his children.

The Katharsis of Destiny, repeating the pattern of crime against your children and community at large, begins at the moment when Oedipus, now King of Thebes, admits that he is responsible for the plague in the polis, truth so horrible that he can't watch it with his eyes but blinds himself, and leaves Town escorted by his daughter. And even after that, it is a long journey ahead to find peace and balance...

Given the absolute turd muffin that I think The Mittster is, I'd really rather see polls that show Obama with a lock on a win--with a HUGE margin. We don't have that right now, and it creeps the hell outta me that there is no clear majority for what I consider to be such an obvious choice.

Turd Muffin -v- Obama. Come on--really? You are telling me that almost half the people polled don't SEE how bad it could get if they vote the wrong way? Makes me feel ill.

I do think the debates are only one aspect of the race, and in that respect, I think a lot otherwise savvy folks are getting over heated before they need to. Obama laid back in that first debate. Dunno why for sure--but he clearly did not go after the lies and double talk the way I wanted him to. (Hell--I wanted him to just bitch slap The Mittster at one point and we ALL know that ain't happening!)

What we DO have, after the debate was over and done, was a knee level wind on The Mittster's side, with all his campaign folks out there doing a two step trying to distance him from some of the more heinous comments he made. We had open comments in mainstream media about The Mittster's flip-flops and actual lies. We even had the great good gift of a few news cycles of The Mittster being talked about as the guy who wants to off Big Bird!! Something that was supposed to be a throw away line that "humanized" him actually bit The Mittster on the ass big time. That is not a bad place to be in if you are the Obama camp and you want red meat to throw out in the next few debates. That also is not a bad place to be with somebody like Biden coming up to debate a little snot like Ryan later this week.

I agree, it ain't over yet, and there's an awful lot gonna happen before this election is over. Having SAID that, however, i think obama is gonna come out of this looking just fine and sounding like a President rather than a blowhard. Cough. Mittster. Cough.


Laura

They may not like Romney, but they hate Obama more. The president's performance has fired them up a bit. I think a good number of them went from "we don't have a chance" to "we have a chance."

on your PS. I'm tired of folks acting like this election is in the bag.

whose entire "thought" process consists of repeating what they pick up, so they don't have the insights you have and certain kinds of things are like meth to them.

There are people who are capable of processing what you said responsibly. Problem is that there are also many many ~ more who aren't or DON'T for reasons of their own.

Last edited Tue Oct 9, 2012, 06:35 PM - Edit history (1)

polls are only accurate and to be believed when they show us what we want to believe. Otherwise they have flawed methodology, are outright lies or, failing any of the other real objections to the data's validity, are "right-wing talking points", which has lately come to mean "I can't or don't care to explain WHY this information isn't true or isn't relevant, just don't mention it here".

its the optics. Yelling and screaming is what people heard out of Romney. All we remember is how Romney wants to get rid of Big Bird.

And that wasn't towards you but all of us.

I think Obama did some brilliant moves during the debate but he did come across as unprepared.

But it was the first debate and first debates aren't going to hold up if we have 3 solid debates afterwards.

For everyone to predict the outcome of the election based on the first debate is like saying who will win the World Series based on the the first week of baseball season.

And the polls AREN'T sucking right now. If you look at the Rassmussen free polls you'll see that Obama is still strong in key swing states.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2012/Pres/Maps/Oct09-noras.html

And I totally disregard national polls - we don't win elections on those.

My rant isn't towards you, it's free speech here at DU. I think just in general. Obama did not do well during that first debate but Romney totally blew it himself. He may have seemed more prepared but he spent the entire time spewing fiction and the Big Bird hit was classic.

It's all good!

I believe we're being unfair to both sides. The "Pollyannas" and the "Concern Trolls"

In the end, most of us fall into the same category. We want our guy to win. And I would also be willing to bet that we are all equally concerned. We just have different ways of dealing with it.

Some of us do not want to 'talk out' each and every bit of negative news. It's not so much sticking our heads in the sand as it is not wanting to get overwhelmed and feeling hopeless. We know damn well that not all is just peachy.

Others deal with their concerns by openly voicing them, either just to vent, or to get talked out of them. And that is not done purposely to depress voter turnout. Has anyone honestly changed their mind about voting after reading someone's concern post?

They're both valid strategies, based on different personality types. Some of us even fall into the middle. Some days we're Pollyannas, and other days we're Concern Trolls.

Let's not forget that we have the same goal, ultimately. And let's try to understand each other a bit better.

There comes a time when one has to think about "playing for next season" to continue the baseball analogy. That time has not come yet but may not be far off if O lays another egg. Romney has all the momentum in the world, and while the fat lady has yet to sing, she's beginning to warm up. Obama needs a real game-changer now... not impossible but a tall order this late.

But we were up 5 games, we looked lackluster last series, and we don't want and can't afford another one like the last one.

But its a FACT is that the President was terrible in the debate for not correcting Slick Mitt's lies.

The President was underwhelming in the first debate, and we are seeing that reflected in the poll numbers. It's pretty simple.

We will turn this thing around, but lets not pretend that we don't have a real struggle on our hands.

It means what it means

numbers didn't have to happen, it was within the campaign's control. Maybe that makes it harder to get over, and makes me mad. But Obama was mad too.

I do think that debating the subject is good and if you can't you might as well just prepare a post "all is wonderful" and repost it every day.

Oops...they just showed another poll done by the news in MA..post-debate. big drop for senate and Obama.

I am with you...waiting for turnaround by campaign.

I think Krugman was correct when he said the media doesn't know how to handle flat-out lies. Most main stream reporters don't seem to know how to go after these politicians about their scant regard for veracity. There was a line on NPR the other day about these latest polls, something to the effect that people don't really believe Romney can deliver what he's promising, but these people like what they're hearing from him anyway. It is things like that, the things that don't make any sense, that are making the race anything like close. We all just need to keep on plugging.

you will be here swabbing up the blood and handing out the kleenex. Anyone who says different hasn't lived through 00 and 04. None of us wants to relive that again. Especially you and most of the oldtimers on DU. We are being cautious, and realistic even when it hurts.

I know so many people want to pretend Obama is some supernatural Jedi character whose every strategy is flawless because of his immense intelligence but it's just not true and yes sometimes he goes out there and fails.

Last week was a fail. He needs to pick himself up, dust himself off and go on the attack from here on out. Don't be passive and not defend yourself from a constant barrage of lies and hope fact checkers and post-debate ads can make up the difference (they won't).

"Pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living."

Many of us did not disagree with your assessment of the debate. And a dip in the polls should have been, and probably was, quite expected. We agree that this is not going to be a picnic, and we do have to fight for what we believe in. But it is getting interesting, all the same.

and that's the shame of it all.

I, for one, certainly appreciate well-thought out commentary.

At least in the world of 3rd Way Democrats.

Yesterday was an eye-opener. A bump is one thing, but to see what appears to be everything slipping away is another. Yes, I'm more than a bit worried. I'm just wondering how one poor debate from Obama could do this, when all we've seen is gaffe after gaffe from Romney. Really??

One answer is that America is hell-bent on self-destruction and wants to see the final conclusion of what started in with Reagan - let's see how long it takes self-absorbed, greed-infested assholes to self-destruct and fuck up everything around them. The other is that we're being played by the corporate-owned media which is exaggerating the "debate swing" in Romney's favor, which is where I'm leaning. The other, and most insidious is that the money behind the media is hyping the swing in poll numbers so it'll be close enough to steal.

It could also be that everything is bullshit and Obama will easily win a 2nd term. To be honest, there is too much at state for me to be calm right now. A Romney presidency would be an unmitigated disaster for this country and for much of the civilized world - just like Bush's was. Will the US survive yet another round, Part III of "Pigs at the Trough"? I think of the effect it would have on so many people having ACA pulled back and Medicare decimated. We know too well all the wonderful things Republicans are itching to destroy, and Big Bird is the least of them. Then there's the Post Office, more libraries (many closed under W), and finally, the middle class. We can't afford another round of these cretins in the White House and it is mind-boggling that this election is so close. Or is it?