And even if they weren't... why attack mode immediately?

is how the right argues. I expect better from our side. Did you not find enough outrage about that brave young Pakistani woman on this board? Is that what you're claiming?

Is the subject that British Muslims are protesting at google HQ about a film they find offensive?

Is the subject about Malala (she has a fucking name, folks. Use it.) being shot in Pakistan?

Neither!

The subject is that alp227 is exploiting the attack on Malala Yousafzai, in an effort to condemn people a quarter of the world away from her who happen to share the basics of a faith with the men who attacked her. The "subject" presented is that Muslims everywhere are all to be held responsible for the actions of Muslims somewhere else. How dare those British Muslims be protesting something htey find protest-worthy! Those fucking scumbags should be protesting what alp227 demands they protest... Because he has the entitlement to make such a demand of them.

So... where is alp227's condemnation, his protest, his outrage? Well... it's not there. All Malala is to him is a tool to use and throw away in his pointless, and frankly bigoted "condemnation" of people living far away from her situation.

"Gasp!" I hear you say, "bigoted?! How dare you call someone bigoted!"

Because imagine the same argument thrown against say... black people. Such as this old favorite (read it in Pat Buchanan's voice for the full effect)
"Why the heck are black people protesting disenfranchisement / police brutality / a blackface comedy act? They should be protesting black-on-black violence! Stupid black people!"

And now, in alp227's voice:
"Why the heck are Muslims protesting a film they find offensive? They should be protesting the near-killing of this pakistani girl!"

Or Mitt Romney's voice;
"Why the heck are all these poor people protesting the so-called '1%'? They should be focusing on how to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, like I did!"

etc., etc.

Assumed privilege over others; something you clearly stand tall in favor of, leftynyc. Don't ever fucking lump me as being on "your side" again, kay? Bad words will be exchanged.

there are many that seem to think mockery of a prophet is more important than the shooting of a young woman. Ms. Yousafzai (I don't call people I don't know by their first name) is not being exploited at all. She's just one of hundreds, perhaps thousands of women who are at the mercy of disgusting animals who think it's not proper for women to get an education. Perhaps you think it's just dandy that women treated as property but Democrats do not - that you're on the other side of that equation (by your own argument) is your problem.

The rest of your rant belongs in the trash as it's just a laughable nad completely pathetic attempt at distraction that has no chance of working so was only a waste of your time.

Exactly as I called it. The "subject" is holding Muslims in Britain responsible for the Taliban in Pakistan. British Muslims are expected to abandon whatever it is they are involved with, and instead cater to the whims and wishes of yourself, alp227, and others.

I'm not on your side, for the same reason I am not on the side of Ann Coulter, Daniel Pipes, Pamela Gellar, or Anders Breivik. Do not call yourself a democrat, and don't call yourself a progressive; you're neither. You are a bigot exploiting the near-death of a little girl to further your bullshit rhetoric. In this, you are absolutely no different from any other right-wing shitheap.

Bottom line, the Taliban is responsible for what the Taliban did. Men and women with a gripe against google in Britain are not. Nor are they required to shut the fuck up about their gripe because you say so. You are not so entitled.

Since when do you, just an anonymous poster, get to decide who is called a Democrat. Go fuck youself.

Maybe try NOT being a frothing bigot at every fucking turn? Might help your case. Or maybe not exploiting the near-death of a little girl to push that bigotry, at the very least? I mean, in theory you're an adult, you can be an islamophobic fuck without hiding behind the incapacitated form of a 14 year-old, right?

please do tell us more about this "infantile rage."

being asked to "fuck myself" is rather confusing. It would require a sort of flexibility just not found in the human body. Well, maybe some people are exceptional, granted, but in general...

My "tantrum" consists of simply pointing out the bigotry and exploitative intent inherent in the OP, and your own in the course of your defending that. It's not rage; it's disgust.

Go back to reading the posts on "Atlas Shrugs," try to freshen up your material a bit.

Getting to be a habit with you.

nt

That post is over the top and full of invective. Do you bring something else to the table to compensate for that?

What's so hard about understanding that?

....you try so hard....

I keep shoveling, but the tide just keeps washing more flotsam in. If only there were a progressive community somewhere on the internet...

Progressives don't join in the latest fashionable witch hunts - they stick up for victims of prejudice

...is not an enlightenment value.

The guy who made the film is a bigoted dick, but in a free society one has a right to be a bigoted dick as long as you are not intentionally inciting a lynch mob.

march through Skokie. But I am not surprised that some people see it differently and I respect the right of people to peacefully protest an intentional offense.

But then, Jefferson raped his slaves, so I guess it flies.

is a disgrace that on a liberal discussion board that it is even considered debatable whether or not it is okay to demonize any ethnic or religious minority. Imagine if people where debating, "Is it okay to depict Jews as liars and thieves? Well, that's something reasonable people can disagree on." No it not okay to demonize any ethnic/religious minority group even the dreaded Muslims.

so I think alp227 did a pretty good progressive job. A march of Muslims in London is not, however, a 'victim of prejudice'.

spending their time protesting housing demolitions in the West Bank? I don't think so. Perhaps some would do both. But they would have every right to be offended even if holocaust deniers have a right to make their claims. Are the Muslims in London some how responsible for what was done to Malala Yousafzai half a world away? I think the whole idea of bringing Malala Yousafzai into this issue is a non sequitur. Peacefully protesting something that deeply offends is the right of any group especially a marginalized minority. I don't see how the issue of Malala Yousafzai doesn't mean they have no business protesting something that offends them.

all have to deal. They can too. They're not special.

Muslims have every bit a much a right to protest and call for their removal as any other member of a group does when something hateful and bigoted against them is published. And the silly demand that Muslims must protest the shooting of the girl in Pakistan by the Taliban and leave this hate film alone is pretty much the same as demanding Jews don't speak out against antisemitism but must protest the violent actions of extremist Jewish settlers in the West Bank. I'm starting to suspect that some who make this sort of comment and hide behind the free speech banner actually support that 'Innocence of the Muslims' thing and anything that promotes intolerance towards Muslims...

Last edited Mon Oct 15, 2012, 10:52 PM - Edit history (1)

demonize Jews and it is wrong when it is fashionable to demonize Muslims. Demonizing people has a way of getting of hand , don't you think?

You are having the temerity to say "Muslims should not be demonized" on DU. According to many posters on this thread, and the board in general this means that you are in favor of killing little girls, that you masturbate to the Daniel Pearl video, that you hate Jews, and think all Muslims are perfect. They are monsters, so you are a monster too for saying anything that can be taken as "support."

Basically these posters - alp227, leftynyc, nye brevan, 4th law of robotics, loli phabay, slackmaster, odin2005, demosincebirth, quantess, and others - are bigots who have realized their frothing hate will be supported on DU so long as they restrain it to groups that "don't matter" to this "progressive" community.

but, since we are on this one, I can choose to utilize several options to rude postings.
Hmmm...ahhh...THIS one: "trash thread"

Sad that haters refuse to read what you write, and instead, respond to what they WANT you to say.

It mentions Pakistan right at the end of the OP. You even quote the passage yourself. I don't see your point at all.

Did the quote you used come from the op. It looks like the hypocrisy was shown by directly saying something about the scum Taliban in Pakistan.

would be nice to see the same numbers protesting the nuts who profess to follow the same religion.

Here ya go:

http://www.examiner.com/article/thousands-protest-the-shooting-of-little-girl-pakistan

"Thousands Protest the Shooting of Little Girl in Pakistan"

did you protest her killing this weekend, or did you watch football?

And neither am i working up a protest against the movie. I guess the point of ten thousand in the uk protesting a stupid movie but not the nuts who shot a young girl in the head is kinda lost on some.

do you feel obligated to protest that as well, or do you hold only muslims to this standard?

perhaps you can do something constructive, like fire off an angry email to the head of islam.

To take back their religion. Oh i sent an email to the old alquaeda and the mullahs in iran but so far mothing back from them.

occupying our lands, bombing and invading our countries, arming our enemies to the teeth while controlling our resources and the way the Muslims nations get to decide which of our governments are legitimate and which are not - how could anyone possibly think otherwise?

jeeze i can never understand DU and the need to defend the nuts in islam but not in other religions.

is not at the heart of this campaign to demonize Muslims and is not at the roots of most extremism.

Have we been aggressive against them?

India and Pakistan have fought two wars. Wasn't our doing.

Extremists will find any reason, no matter how small, to be extreme.

Good to see you too!

I see you're in the MIRT, how's that going these days?

If you ever get a chance, try and serve on the MIRT. It's a really good experience and I've been lucky enough to serve on a team with really great DUers

Defending the values of the Enlightenment against religious backwardness and barbarism is "fascist imperialism neo-colonialism" in their minds.

And you are picking a fight.

And bigotry. I do get it.

Not much else to say. Hatred is irrational, and so, there is no arguing against it logically, so unless there is a reasonable basis for it, I'm done here.

whether you or I agree with them or not.

Islam is not a unified, organized religion on any level. There's a huge diversity amongst believers who call themselves "Muslims".

I invite you to visit my community--Dearborn, Michigan--and meet some Muslims Americans. Once you interact with people on a human level, it becomes much harder to put them into such a reductive box.

and while many of the individual followers are perfectly nice and well-meaning people, their religion's basic precepts are just flat-out wrong. Just like Christianity and Judaism, the rules in their books range from anachronistic to completely insane, and following them to one degree or another is the price of admission.

What followers of all religions don't seem to be capable of understanding is that, no matter how moderate or well-meaning their application of these rules are, the basic premise is that we know The Truth and if you don't agree or believe, you are wrong. That's why none of them can ever be more beneficial to humanity than they are hurtful.

Believing that fiction is true is antithetical to reality. There is no omnipotent, sentient being watching over the world and caring for its inhabitants, period. It is a fairy tale spun to both comfort and control its adherents.

the problem is that it will take a few more hundred years for Islam to get out of them and become a more mature, ok it is us, but there are others out there that do not necessarily believe like we do. For the record, if you read carefully in the tensions within Islam, yes I have, you will quickly notice that the discussion has started and that NOT ALL Muslims are intolerant. The Taliban are a particular breed of intolerance though, and I suspect is partially not the religion but the society. People want to think of Afghanistan and partially Pakistan as nation states... no, not really. And part of the conflicts are clan based... the SWAT valley is particularly bad, as it is a cross of three different clans.

Both Judaism, well before the Common era, and Christianity, went through the same crap, In fact, as far as Christianity is concerned, a few denominations are still in the teen age years... and if you do not think like us... (Yes Fundies I am looking at you, only reason why Fundie Jews are not there is the definite status of a minority within a minority)

You can say that for Eastern Religions as well.

What is driving fundies of all stripes crazy is this new upstart, and in their mind it is a religion... called Secularism and science. I mean the latter is really turning some believes upside down, even if cosmology has it's charm, that could even be called religious in some ways. I mean, what it is doing is exactly the same thing (in their minds), as religion, and that is the creation story, and creation myth.

Of course praying to the quanta to give you a shiny, well it will give you the shiny and not at the same time, and everything in between... and it cares two shits about you... hence the threat.

fantasies. The truths are that we are just another species of animal that evolved through chance right here on Earth and there is no sentient super-being directing events or watching over us. We are on our own and we are the only animal to possess the means to make our world better or to destroy ourselves and most of the other inhabitants of our beautiful little ball of mud.

There may be things going on that we do not as yet understand, but that is not evidence in support of any of the precepts or stories of any of the religions. One thing I do know with absolute certainty is that we will all eventually find out. Until then, living your one and only life as if it is your one and only chance is the only thing that makes sense. And selling your very limited time here cheaply to other people that have no concern for you or appreciation of the immense sacrifice they ask of you is just stupid.

but in my mind they have a valid reason to rise. We humans are not special or above other creatures, not at all... but we humans are capable of asking this question... WHERE DID WE COME FROM? The answer has changed over the last 100,000 years at least several major times. We are at the threshold, imo, of another major change where paternalistic religions are facing a direct threat.

For the record, after sharing my home with three, and now, two parrots, and seeing one of them go through a serious grieving process that you could say was human like... I know better. But this is part of what I see also as cultural evolution

The old testament is a collection of stories, but look at it from the point of view of how god is described and his actions are described from the Bronze Age, all the way to the book of Macabees, not part of the Canon. You will notice an evolution that our fundies refuse to see. Then you add things like the Talmud, the Kabbala, and later people like Spinoza, one of the most influential medieval philosophers, and you can see that evolution. And yes, Spinoza would be considered a very liberal non religious thinker today.

In some ways I think science (which is not a religion) is a threat, because in some ways it is the end stage for all abrahamic religions (As well as other religions, the parallel between the cycles of the universe as accepted by some cosmology and Indian faiths is astounding)... you look at the evolution and yes, pretty much they lead there, at least with the philosophers who are part of it.

Why there is pretty much no real conflict between the liberal sects of all these religions and science. But the orthodox or conservative sects see both liberals and science as a threat.

I will even predict a schism or two between those two major factions in all three abrahamic religions. It will happen over the next hundred or two hundred years, and it will accelerate as Climate change accelerates. Humans need to find comfort in something, and quite honest, most humans have a little problem with the idea that we are not that special and nobody cares about us.

Me, that is quite self centered and actually selfish... but chiefly, self centered. Me, we are part of evolution... and the only comfort, now let me get all sciency with you. I know that we just don't die and become dust... but there is no heaven or hell either. It is simple, and the law of conservation of information is clear. Whatever you learned is information. So when you die, and our brains might very well be a quantum mechanics computer, all that information that you learned is not lost. For the record, when my Cockatiel Tuky died, all that information was not lost either. It is physics. Just the kind of physics that most people can't truly grasp. And that is what scares conservative religious figures to no end. Hell is a powerful control mechanism.

from the sky, and spaketh:

"Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke"

Frankly, I find your post to be biased against Muslims. Period.

I think the OP's point is that while a stupid you tube video that their leaders exploited and lied about by saying it was a hollywood production and had the okay of the US government is enough to bring the sheep out into the streets, the fact that there are animals trying to kill young girls who merely want to get an education is not. If thinking their priorities are in the wrong place time and time again makes someone biased, I'm guilty as charged and I have no intention of backing away from that.

And yes I think you've demonstrated clear bias over and over and over and over and.....

Everyone's got them. And yes, I'm totally and completely biased against anything that time and time and time again shows a complete disregard for females. Put it on my tombstone.

They do not have a right not to be offended.

If they really gave a damn they should be protesting the shooting of that 14yo girl.

And last time I checked folks who are left wing approve of protests against bigoted hate films.

Hey, I was going to start protesting about some government cuts happening, but if yr demanding I go out and start a protest about the shooting of a girl in Pakistan who am I to argue against such an authoritarian demand?

And I have a right to say that their argument is stupid.

Is it them daring to protest against a bigoted film made to create hatred and intolerance? Do you also think other minority groups are stupid for daring to peacefully protest against bigotry aimed at them, or is it only Muslims that you feel that way about?

To them disrespect of the prophet is more outrageous than a young girl who was almost killed in the name of their religion.

Can't they just not watch the video? There's all kinds of shit on YouTube that offends me. My solution is to not watch the shit that offends me.

This is a meme war of the truest type, not the Internet graphic definition of meme that many have come to understand the word to have. Ideas are competing for survival and the losing one is backed into a corner. That makes it loud and dangerous, but also shows desperation and foretells its imminent demise, at least in its current form. Like other religious memes, this one will have to adapt to Western culture (most of Islam already has) or die. Unfortunately, memes require human hosts to replicate, so more aggression is likely in store before this one's extinction.

Memetics links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMES.html

http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Memetics/

It is no fluke that Christian fundamentalists in America are making their apocalyptic last stand in this election. That meme is dying and may not survive more than a few generations if it cannot prove its relevance by winning positions of authority "by the grace of God."

and in that case, there is no hypocrisy in those angry mobs calling for civility.

pre-2003 Illegal Invasion, and we weren't an "angry mob."

And those with whom you marched. Because you are all Christian.

Meanwhile, you didn't march with this "mob", so can hardly characterize them as angry, can you.

abound in the film, artistic, and literary worlds! But the Western World experienced the 18th C. Enlightenment, and the secular nature of civil society was elevated above the religious. The vast majority of Western Civilzation has finally come to accept this.

Islam is a theo-political philosophy that by defintion cannot separate the religious from the secular.

That didn't work out so well for Salem, MA, and it isn't going to in London.

why the fuck are they going to bat over this piece of crap vid

w/o threat of force or law this is not a freedom of speech issue

there is no "right" to post on youtube

they should refuse service

Vids that were kicked of of youtube:

pulled for innapropriate content - a very subjective term:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x268em_guns-n-roses-welcome-to-the-jungle_news

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x26idl_wild-war-protest_news

Pulled for copyright infringement:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2699t_censored-green-day-sold-out_music

Sometimes people get their videos taken down because they use a song by a copyrighted artist. I've known it to happen to people who make completely non-political videos that have used a popular song in the background.

I'm not saying this is the case, but without saying why they were removed it doesn't really prove any point one way or the other.

they don't have to have a reason
but...
inappropriate content was the reason given

one was a very popular video and was up for a long time before someone complained and it was pulled

who is to say what's inappropriate?

Google is - that's who

As consumers, we can choose not to use their service.

I am completely on the fence about whether or not it should be taken down, but I respect anyone's right to protest whatever the hell they want.

it'll be taken down before you can click "I'm Feeling Lucky".

that is an acceptable way to express your anger.


And to be fair we've been mocking backwards beliefs for a long time. It's not a new thing. Perhaps communications have just made more people aware of it.

just like you can be a Christian and either be Fred Phelps (hyper conservative nutjob) or Bishop Shelby Spong (liberal Episcopalian bishop).

Any more than ALL Christians support Fred Phelps or supported David Koresh. There HAVE been Muslim protests and outcries against the Taliban and the girl that was shot in Pakistan.

Being bigoted yourself isn't the way to go about resolving the bigotry problems of others.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/14/14431038-thousands-rally-in-karachi-for-malala-14-year-old-pakistani-girl-shot-by-taliban?lite

If they just shut up about it, 99.9% of people will quickly forget that it ever existed. I have no problem with peaceful protests, but it's a waste of their time as Google is not going to take down the movie.

I had to check and make sure I was on Democratic Underground after reading this seething nest of bigotry.

The ignorant and hateful anti-Muslim comments I regularly see here, on this "liberal" forum - it's very, very disheartening.

nt

there HAVE indeed been massive rallies in Pakistan (where presumably most of the protesters were Muslims) to protest against that vile act.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1014/The-Malala-moment-Tens-of-thousands-rally-in-Pakistan-for-girl-shot-by-Taliban

DU-ers may want to leave a get-well message for Malala on this site:

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/page/s/malala-yousafzai

uh-huh