All gas stations must have backup power for their pumps.

to their service in no time at all.

Compared to the number of gas stations?

How much fuel (assuming the portable generators brought to a site would use diesel vs natural gas) would be consumed to power the operations needed to dispense the fuel?

Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, and Louisiana. AKA the places that eat godawful hurricanes on a regular basis. (Actually the ones I've seen in Alabama are automatic start propane generators.)

The reason the gas stations up there don't is because the NE US isn't supposed to be getting storms like this.

This kind of thing doesn't happen in the NE, and if it can't be fiscally justified it doesn't happen unless mandated by law which also takes some lead from either being necessary for health/safety or a fiscal reason.

but I remember the great power outage in the summer of 2003 - you don't need a hurricane to have a widespread blackout

Not saying you're wrong, but good luck convincing gas station owners in the mid-Atlantic states to invest in generators they may not use for years.

Its usually at the top of hurricane preparations lists.

they probably had the resources to stock up on gas before a storm hits.

... but didn't quite make it to the next paycheck.

With that and the $16 a month I get for foodstamps (a debit card actually), I live comfortably. I don't have to worry about gas as I can't afford a vehicle and it's a 3 mile round trip to the nearest grocery store and back. needless to say, I don't buy much groceries at a time but I do have enough food on hand to last me for a close to a month if need be.

But I do think we all could learn from this. Some preplanning and preperation could go along way to lessen the suffering and even save lives.

I've been following the news and reading the threads here to see what I can learn and have started a OP on subject in the Frugal Living group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11281768

But sometimes the storm hits before you get a paycheck to do all the things you need to do to prepare for the storm.

I figure i could last about a month with the food I have. It'd be a diet consisting mainly of apples, onions and homemade sauerkraut but it'd get me by for a time. I could go the whole winter without electricity, gas for heat ( I have wood on hand and access to more wood and a woodstove in the basement) and running water as there is a river nearby and there'd soon be snow to melt.

I don't live like this because I'm preparing for a natural or man-made disaster. It's because of my financial situation that I'm used to a minimalist lifestyle.

I mean, they are stupid. They failed to plan, and now they are annoying you. Clearly they should be made to suffer to teach them the error of their ways.

So let us all know what you feel should be done to them.

Don't forget to spit on the foolish ones as you pass by them.

Perhaps you just don't see how uncaring and condescending your posts come across. I am hoping that I am right and that you are a caring and compassionate progressive who just can't get that to translate into the written word very well.

Maybe from dealing with other members and are reading more into what I write then what I actually did write. No where have I said the the victims are to blame for their situation nor have I said anything like "Sucks to be them!". I see nothing wrong with discussing what people did prior to the storms arrival that lessened their suffering and also what some may have done which worsened their predicament.

$1071/mo. Do tell. I hear single apartments (no separate bedroom) run at least $1500 there.

It also wouldn't work in Los Angeles. My 1-BR apartment in an older building with no insulation runs $1100/mo. Utilities add another $200+. And then I'd like to eat occasionally. Anything else at all is icing on the cake.

Where do you live? Rural Mississippi?

Not everyone has it made like you. And they aren't struggling because they are spendthrifts, either.

do you not think they could afford to stock up on gas before the storm hit considering they had the money to drive to a gas station to purchase gas in the first place?

Money isn't the issue here. They have the funds. They just didn't get the gas before the storm arrived.

especially telling the people of the NY/NJ metro region to make homemade sauerkraut.

Kaleva, perhaps you are not aware of it, but you are coming across as a really cold person. I remember reading stuff like this after Katrina when so many people were basically told 'they should have known better'.

Don;t assume to know that is is just as simple as not getting gas before the storm. Have you seen how many people are standing in lines with red conatianer? Does it occur to you that they might be looking to get fuel for their GENERATORS?

Unless you live in the region, I think you should not judge those who live there based upon your personal situation. You are fortunate, but you are NO better than the people suffering today. Stop acting like you are, please.

I highly doubt those who were severly hit by the storm are spending any time reading what I write.

And it bothers me not that anyone here thinks I may be cold hearted becasue none of you know what kind a person I really am. If folks want to form an opinion based on a few posts, then that's their problem and not mine.

anyone else thinks, period.

Not a hint of smug superiority with you, is there??

Did it ever once occur to you that NOT EVERYONE IS AS SMART AS YOU?? That some people are just not good emergency planners?

They don't deserve to die or suffer just because they are lesser beings than yourself.

Wow, those people are even more dumb than imagined.

Please don't twist my words.

Seriously. If you want to believe the words you wrote, you stand by that. I never said "they spent all their money on a generator, and couldn't afford gas before the storm"

Actually -- you did.

And also please do tell how you happen to know that they didn't fill up, and then had to wast huge amounts of gas running around getting ready for the storm.

Otherwise, stop hatin' on the less fortunate and calling them stupid. You're going to have people thinking you are a repuke or Ayn Randist.

Did they get paid during the storm?

Either the check wasn't delivered or people couldn't go to work to pick it up and some people aren't getting paid because they can't get to work.

That makes a lot of sense...

You said they weren't prepared. It's 4 days after the storm. How are people going to pick up their pay checks if they don't work? How many people take mass transit and are forced to drive because it's not available?

21st century and everything.

In CA, unemployment benefits are paid through direct deposit. The state gives people a Visa card to use to draw on their EDD accounts. I'd imagine welfare and disability work the same way.

That is who.

How does this make any sense?

Perhaps they borrowed money, received a check ... a debt was repaid .... ? why do you assume they had money ...doesn't make sense

Before the storm, they were at the end of their last paycheck and had no money to buy supplies, but sometime during the storm or in its aftermath, they got the next paycheck, cashed it, and now have money to buy supplies? Is that what you are saying?

Because the job has no power, was destroyed, or there is no mass transit. Wednesday was the first of the month. They have put off rent and other necessities. But gas is necessary just to get to work or the doctor or whatever.

Im asking how "people that couldn't get their checks because they couldn't get to work because the job has no power, was destroyed, or there is no mass transit" and couldn't buy gas before the storm are now able to buy gas. Nothing more, nothing less.

... possible scenario to you?

scenario for you...AGAIN?

Ok, I will.

The question was asked, why didnt folks stock up on gas and supplies before the storm? The answer you gave was that they probably didn't have any money to buy that stuff. Which begs the question: where did they get the money to buy the supplies that they couldnt buy before the storm? In places where there is no power/services, people are not going to work because there is no power/services, so they couldn't have picked up a paycheck, and if they did, where did they cash it? Sure, maybe this worked out for a few folks, but common sense tells us that folks that could not pay for supplies before the storm most likely are still unable to pay for supplies after. (Which opens a whole other topic, but that is for another thread).

The point here is, IMO, that folks in line trying to get gas now have the ability to pay for it, which means that they most likely had the ability to pay for it BEFORE the storm hit, and chose not to. Perhaps if those that COULD have gotten their supplies before the storm hit (it was not some surprise thing, there were several days of warnings)and not be in the way of those that really could NOT afford to get the supplies.

This is about poor personal choices that affect more that the individual making the personal choice. This is the crux of this election: are we in this together, with everyone making smart choices that minimize the impact on others, or do we just do what we want a forget about how our choices effect others?

... I do not presume to know the experiences of others ... you are posting about their poor choices (you post so adamantly I have become convinced that you know the circumstances and that these folk are suffering because they made poor choices).

I foolishly assumed they did the best they could with what they had.

It really is pointless for us to converse about this ... you will nEVER convince me that this is all "of their own making" .... I don't want to be that person.

And now I see what the real problem is": You tried to paint a picture that did not really mirror reality, and when shown that, you attack me for doing the EXACT same thing you did.

It is, indeed, pointless for us to converse about this...I will never convince you that reality matters.

The source is irrelevant ... begged borrowed ... found.

many folk receive payments on the first of every month ... funny how this kind of coincides with your scenario ...?

It just makes no sense.

It must be very hard to be you. Good luck in all you do!

You stay classy.


Oh, and have a really nice day.

... you are funny ... thank you!

This has turned out to be great ... seriously, thank you!

Hard to imagine they didn't the day before the storm.

i am glad you know the circumstances of these people

Busted.

I spent years working with disadvantaged communities. This does not surprise me at all. the pay check to pay check scenario is one of many.

I could be wrong ... all of the folk referenced may have had plenty of money and simply chose not to take care of themselves ... for some, that may actually be true. for others there may be many, many situations that prohibited them from spending resources they may or may not have had.

Some people haven't been able to work for days. Others have not had their pay checks delivered.

Isn't that a waste of time? You're spinning so bad you're becoming a pretzel.

And maybe even pay for heat this week.

The question was asked, why didnt folks stock up on gas and supplies before the storm? The answer given was that they probably didn't have any money to buy that stuff. Which begs the question: where did they get the money to buy the supplies that they couldnt buy before the storm? In places where there is no power/services, people are not going to work because there is no power/services, so they couldn't have picked up a paycheck, and if they did, where did they cash it? Sure, maybe this worked out for a few folks, but common sense tells us that folks that could not pay for supplies before the storm most likely are still unable to pay for supplies after. (Which opens a whole other topic, but that is for another thread).

The point here is, IMO, that folks in line trying to get gas now have the ability to pay for it, which means that they most likely had the ability to pay for it BEFORE the storm hit, and chose not to. Perhaps if those that COULD have gotten their supplies before the storm hit (it was not some surprise thing, there were several days of warnings)and not be in the way of those that really could NOT afford to get the supplies.

This is about poor personal choices that affect more that the individual making the personal choice. This is the crux of this election: are we in this together, with everyone making smart choices that minimize the impact on others, or do we just do what we want a forget about how our choices effect others?

didn't fill up before the storm.

That doesnt make any sense.

Unreal. I hope this person gets to experience what many people in the NY area experienced. We'll see if they're really prepared.

the storm is a "teabagger" viewpoint?

What. The. Fuck.

Sorry I wasn't clear.

That would be refusing to evacuate before the storm, then calling 911 demanding rescue during the height of storm. Check. Not filling up gas tank before storm (at top of every hurricane preparations list), then complaining about gas lines. Check. Not stocking up on food, water, essentials before the storm, then complaining FEMA didn't respond immediately with three hot meals a day delivered to their door. Check.

Need I point out these same SIers elected a teabagger to Congress? There's yer freakin' teabaggers....and those who lamely defend them.

And you sound just like someone I know.

Perhaps it's 4 days after the storm and people are trying to work so they can pay for gas. Perhaps there would be fewer self righteous clueless people in the world, but I suspect the supply of those is unlimited.

Ockams Razor... People too stupid to evacuate evacuation zones are probably too stupid to fill their gas tanks before the storm.

How do you know they didn't fill up? It's 4 days after the storm and there is limited or no mass transit in many places.

You're real compassionate, you are.

News to me. Is that on the same "citizen channel" thats reporting people dropping dead all over Staten Island?

what'd you expect?

that leak into ground water, they should instead be put on the roof where the public could see just how bad gas stations are. That would allow gravity to fill the cars, but that makes too much sense to businessmen that want to hide what they do.

i'm not seeing how you think that would work.

When I was younger, a lot of stations had above ground tanks that you could see leaking so you knew which gas stations were the bad ones. My family avoided the stations that were leaking the most.

but it seems like a very bad idea from a public safety standpoint- thousands of gallons of gas visible and accessible by anyone who wants to start a conflagration.
above ground tanks would also take up a lot of space, especially for stations in big cities, where space is at a premium

and what happens when an out-of-control vehicle rams the tank or tank supports..?

could see the gas in the glass tank including how many gallons marked up the side of the tank. Gas was about 7 cents per gal as I recall.

I think the dangers of something hitting it would stop that. Not worth it. Use a portable generator to allow a few stations to supply fuel to the emergency and clear-up personnel, and then concentrate on restoring the electricity, which is more important than mobility for the general public.

and no time have I seen an above ground gasoline tank except at some farms and they were at most 500 maybe a 1000 gallon tanks. Where do or better yet where did you see these above ground tanks? All gasoline tanks are a tank in a tank with a probe in the space between the two to alert when a leak has been detected so I hardly think that much gasoline is leaking from gasoline tanks. Its been ten years or so now since the last of the gas stations were upgraded to these tanks btw

then we wouldn't need those inconvenient outlets, we could just tap into the line anywhere

for the Lord Humungus...

Stations have been up-grading to them over the past 25 years. Even abandoned tanks required to be dug up and disposed of. EPA not happy when gas leaks into groundwater.

sitting on the roof of your local 7-11?

And modern gasoline storage units are well-protected against leakage.

Not always useful, but it is entertaining,

Like this one.

Old tanks not so much.

A new tank and all of its plumbing (lines that feed dispensers) are virtually leak proof. Above ground systems are more susceptible to the environment from temperature changes, rain, salt, etc... Underground the temperature is relatively constant.

Also how would you mount a storage tank that when full can hold over 150,000lbs of fuel? That's just one tank. What about the other 2 grades of gas?

The gas stations near me (SE Conn) now work in power outages because of our many recent storms.

all, save, ONE, gas station was not working for that reason and two stores were opened.

something like 5 cents a gallon, they make their money on pop, beer, tobacco and other carryout products. I worked with one guy that ran a gas gas station on the side for years he said when he first started the station he made a good profit on gas. Then BP would tell him to raise the gas say ten cents a gallon then at the same time take 2 cents off of his profit. He said they just kept chipping away at his profit margin until he just had to go out of business.

I think very few people realize that gas stations are run as franchises and owners make slim profits on gas.

for a non-franchise 12 cents a gallon will bring you a liveable margin. 8 cents you break even. This is in NJ of course where you have attendants to take care of your customers, so depending on the gallons you can pump, you need to have about a 16 cent margin.

I have had customers rip me a new one assuming that we are marking up gas 75%. That would work out to us making about 2.70 a gallon!!! Ha!

he made 5% or 15 cents a gallon. On credit card sales the banks take 3% or 9 cents of his profits, he only cleared 6 cents a gallon. He shut his station down
2 or 3 years ago, the last time I saw him he said BP had cut into his profit margin even more and he just couldn't make it anymore.

for one.

Anyone with a well pump connected to a backup generator can attest to that.

The average 'person' working at a gas station today does not know about generator operation and care. Many can barely work a cash register and some expect them to operate a generator?

Even with a generator the gas would still run out quickly unless the bulk distribution to the gas stations is fixed first.

What are you going to power the generator with, unless the generator has its own fuel source the generator will only run for a short time.

Considering all of the operations that must be powered to dispense fuel ... how many gallons of fuel would be dispensed per gallon of fuel (likely diesel) consumed in the process?

Who would bear the burden of the cost?

Do you think it takes a gallon of gas to power a generator to dispense a gallon of gas?

My point is that gas stations in the NYC metro area are sitting on millions of gallons of gas that they can't distribute because they don't have electricity. If they had electricity provided by a generator, they could distribute their gas. Maybe they'd pump their tanks dry. So what? Consumers would have received gas so they could go about their business. The gas stations will eventually get a fresh delivery and restart the cycle.

As far as the burden of the cost of running a generator, the station owner could reflect the cost in his per-gallon cost to the consumer. No consumer is going to complain about a small surcharge during a crisis of this magnitude, especially if it means getting gas because a generator was used as opposed to not getting gas because there was no electricity to run the pumps.

At no point did I claim a gallon of diesel would be required to dispense a gallon of gas ... however, I do claim that generators are inefficient and that the total cost expenditure to dispense a gallon of gasoline would result in a (significant) net loss to station owners ... and a comparatively small amount of consumers would be served.

The above ignores a multitude of other issues associated with the distribution of fuel during a natural emergency.

Generators serve a good purpose for short term and small scale operations.

Businesses and operations requiring continuous power utilize combinations of generators and "batteries" ... these systems are very expensive to operate and maintain.

... I'm left with the impression that you don't have much real world knowledge of generators, especially today's. A Honda 5HP generator can supply all of the electricity up to a 5 person home building crew needs with excess capacity to spare. On less than 5 gallon a 10 hour day. You should stop embarrassing yourself. It's okay not to be informed about everything. The cost to run the fuel pumps, spread over many 1000s of gallons is barely a blip. The real cost is the initial outlay, not operating them.

That is the most accurate description of that poster, IMO.

Ignorance can be fixed, stupid is forever.