a union since "unions are evil" according to the gop/right wing. Except maybe they want the protection of a union for themselves but not for anyone else. You used the correct word HYPOCRITIES.

But if the choice is join the union or lose the job, they'll take join the union.

That, along with God, guns and gays, most likely goes a long way towards explaining their votes.

Last edited Sun Nov 4, 2012, 02:18 PM - Edit history (1)

Do you think more education about WHY unions are necessary is needed?

I don't think any institution is without corruption or inefficiencies, so I'm sure there are aspects of the unions which need re-evaluated. But, all in all, most of those on the left agree they're critically necessary, and we value what they have provided the workforce over the decades.

But this disconnect is important. I witness it in former classmates and family members in the steel mill areas of Pittsburgh. I would have thought they'd love unions (as we did back in the 70's), but the general opinion of the more apolitical types there is that they now hate unions.

Maybe education of their own members is necessary? Maybe more transparency and working on internal issues is necessary now more than ever as well?

40% vote Republican. I worked in a steel mill represented buy the USW and in my experience there was a good many that found an excuse to always vote Republican. I would say the biggest issues were like they always say guns, gays and God and in 2008 I think race moved to number one. It seems to me that a lot of union people want to think that they are responsible for their good wages and benefits themselves, not the union. It makes them feel good about themselves.

Years ago maybe, like in some Archie Bunker world, a person could be in a union and vote Republican with a straight face. Remember when politico's vied for various unions endorsement??? Well those days are long, long gone, starting with PATCO and Raygun... It's the Dems or stay home...

These days, if you are in a union and vote Repug, well, I guess you hate your union and want to earn LESS MONEY EACH WEEK. It is a clear fact that given power, they (pugs) will eliminate all unions. Are all unions great? Hell no, but I would rather have some corrupt union guys or some arcane work rules than be fucking working 6 days a week. I would rather have unions than not get paid for overtime. I would rather have unions than get UNPAID vacation. I would rather have unions than have a 15 year old kid take my job...And so on...

Yet, just look at the exit polls last June in the WI recall race. You had union people voting for Snotty Walker. Huhhh... Ahhh, he want to screw you so you vote for him???

Black Republicans, Log Cabin Republicans and Republican union members are all crazy, IMHO...

I work in a union workplace and that's just the overall reason. I guess "god & guns" is their concrete reason but many of those types mouth business friendly talking points too. It's part of the "protestant work ethic" thing that seems to dictate that the more "the man" shits on you, the harder you work for him....as some show of character. It has religious origins.

Although the vast majority of Union members are Democrats, the are quite a few who are Republicans. You need to hear them when you point out the fact that they are voting against their own interests, they sound like a Abbot and Costello movie. "Yaaaabuut, Yaaaabutt"

They had their permit and all. I didn't attend but saw photos. A couple of the marchers identified as union members and carried signs saying "America is white not brown." Others called for universal healthcare. When they finally answered what their motivation was, it turned out they objected to a Spanish newspaper publication produced by the university.

They do totally take their benefits for granted.

Small, selfish minds just don't catch on, even when they're on the receiving end.

of them are rabidly anti-union Republicans. I remember when she was teaching she would constantly bitch that half the kids in her class were getting free lunches. Anyway she retired early at around 55 with a fantastic pension and benefits that a union negotiated for her but still is a staunch Republican and anti-union. To top it off her father was a union coal miner and was able to send her and her sister to college because of his union negotiated wages and benefits, he was also a Republican.

Righties are in unions mostly because it is required to hold the good job with benefits. While in there they often make mischief to make life harder for the union leadership.

The alternative is right to work. What would you rather have?

and a car passed me on the highway with a pro-union bumper sticker and a vote for bush sticker. i just laughed, because you can't have it both ways. most, if not all, today's repugs are against unions, against labor rights-more for deregulation.

I would prefer not having false equivalence stuck down my throat.

Maybe union leaders should start cleaning their coffers. there is a young labor force out there who would appreciate union bennies and wages and would NOT try to END unions with their right wing tripe.

Oh, and maybe if these assholes knew they'd be thrown out of the union (after all why should we fight for them if they just want to give the power to people hell bent on seeing the union demise) they'd start THINKING before they drag us down with their "I got mine, so let's end the unions because they don't give me enough" bullshit.

Don't pretend 'right to work' is the only alternative. It isn't, and you damn well know it.

Functionally I see no difference between a shop where union membership is optional and RTW. In either case union dues or even fees (Knox v SEIU/Hudon notice) are paid.

Union offers have nothing to do with it and tossing RW members of a union is harder than you think and practically impossible unless they break union rules such as crossing a picket line.

So what would be your alternative?

its kind of cutesy, like describing a belly-button.

Every last one of them.

They're not freeloaders. You may not like what they believe or how they vote, but freeloading is reserved for right to work states.

in Virginia (a right to work state). We had around 50 employees in the office but one guy wouldn't join the union and didn't pay dues. Before I started there they had a strike for a few days and he crossed the picket line and went to work every day. Staunch Republican

it takes more than dues to be a union member and deserve the rights of a union member. You must be a union member mind and soul.

Because if so, then I see no difference between being pressured by the union to vote a certain way and being pressured by an employer to vote a certain way.

YMMV.

from being fired. If they don't like the Union and would like to see them go away then they don't deserve jackola. Why did you bring up voting? Hmmm.....

you said "You must be a union member mind and soul."

I'm just wondering if "mind and soul" includes their votes.

variables pertaining to your voting question to expect an answer. Vote on what?

I'll make it easy - does "mind and soul" include their votes in partisan political elections, such as House, Senate, President, Governor, state legislature?

That is all. However one does not bite the hand that feeds it. Unless of course it hates the entity attached to said hand. If you see no conflict with this then it can not be explained to you. Mind and heart I say now. Leave out soul for the atheist union member.

blue collar union republicans,it makes no sense.

thing! I've noticed the same phenom in the big-three auto plant where I work. These guys make me think of the title of one of Micheal Moore's books, "stupid white men" . These are middle age and older guys (mostly) that have benefited in many, many ways from the union including of course the bailout that saved their jobs and pensions yet they are rabid repugnants. I think it should be called the nostalgia party because these guys are just sore for the good old days when they were young and when blacks were confined to inner cities (their place) women were confined to the home, raising kids and cooking meals, stores were closed on Sundays and most of the neighborhood went to church. red meat and cigarettes were wholesome. Everybody around was white. You rarely saw asians or other minorities either. Thats how it was when many of these people were young in the mid-west. That can't handle the fact that white supremacy is so much on the wane.

All the union municipal workers here in Illinois are not hired because of their qualifications. They are hired because they know somebody. These jobs are filled by and for someone as a favor.

And the people who get these union municipal jobs are usually huge suck asses. Being in a union is what stands in their way from sucking enough ass to allow them to be promoted to a better job and the top pay scale right past everyone else due to seniority provisions and such. So for the suck asses a union is an obstacle. That is why so many union workers around here are Republicans.

So naturally the people who get these jobs are not fond of unions.

Don

Non-union workers have come to resent the salaries and bennies union workers receive. If the opportunity
to join a union was based on something other than nepotism that resentment would not exist. A non-union
democrat that volunteers and supports the party, while their union neighbor does not only contributes further
to that feeling of unfairness. Democrats need to take the blinders off and start supporting unconditionally those
that support the party. Our minority brothers and sisters, The LGBT community, those that are pacified whiled
thrown the scraps and illusion of support.

Go ahead and bash me. I live in the real world and this is the reality.

and they still need to clean their coffers.

I work with a teacher who is really ill, she has multiple conditions and is out a lot. She is a real tea bagger. I told her that she would be the first to,go if we didn't have union protections, and she told me, "no way!" It took another moderate republican to tell her that with her illnesses, she pushes insurance costs up, and she is out so much, so she would be the first to go. She is still a tea bagger.

their wages, hence they are being courted from both sides and especially by DEAL MAKERS who are protecting their own secret/silent partners. In an ostensibly "down" job market, Labor is going to call the shots for whoever is in and whoever is out.

Citizens United is part of the feeding frenzy because unions can make use of that SAME kind of ANONYMOUS superPAC money that creates corporate personhood.

Personally, I think movement to amend is a big mistake, because it doesn't address election FRAUD and campaign finance transparency. What we need is authentic campaign finance reform and paper ballots, with instant run-off voting, that provide encrypted receipts for each voters vote, that will be counted in public, on a national voting holiday that starts on a Friday morning and runs through Saturday AND Sunday, and Monday to Tuesday morning.

I HIGHLY recommend this book for revealing a great deal of the dynamics internal to unions and Labor in general and placing those dynamics inside of the larger political context of the decades from the late '60s on:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Stayin_Alive.html?id=xz-EINoBGNcC

Unions are starting to recover, but it resulted in very reactionary views and leadership for decades.

We've been called every name in the book, but we keep moving forward. Rank and file unionism. The members truly run this union. Even the union national president CANNOT make more money that one our our guys on the shop floor's straight time wages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Electrical,_Radio_and_Machine_Workers_of_America

It's quite exceptional. Mine is AFT, which is generally progressive. I was thinking of the old AFL-CIO leaders like Meany, etc. Shanker was pretty conservative by my lights too. Things are a little better now, though the centrism of the leaders frustrates some leftists, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be.

I pay monthly dues.


I work in the nuclear industry. Almost all of my union brethren (that I work with every day) are under the Fox spell.


They complain about our local losing power or losing arbitrations all of the time. Meanwhile they blame President Obama for almost all of our nation's ills. Envision this stereotype because it fits: Cabellas camo hunting jackets, a gun collection, a diesel "rig" with a "fifth wheel", chewing tobacco, and a large e-mail list to spread neo con propaganda. It is peer pressure that keeps them from entertaining different views. One on one, I can get some meaningful debate, but in a group, none can show "weakness". Fox has done an amazing job of targeting this demographic with Flags, Eagles, and Red/White/Blue.


I feel like I am leaning against a hurricane wind, but I stand my ground. Most don't want to talk politics to me (not with me) anymore because they are only armed with Fox talking points and thanks to DU, I can debunk almost every one of them and am typically much more current on events than they are.

It is my day to day experiences at work that lead me to believe that Fox is the greatest threat to our American way of life.

them that F*x Ewes is FOREIGN owned.

Their listeners are valuing what a Brit, Murdoch, and his next largest partner, a SAUDI OIL prince, Ali bin Talal, over anyone and everyone else has to say about everything U.S.. I'm REALLY curious how these "patriots" think that's okay.

Isn't that just a shade like "treason"?

The smarter we all are the less likely Fox is able to pull the wool over our eyes. I do my best to keep my guys informed and tack sharp, but there are scabs everywhere who think all their wages and benefits were just given to them by the company. We fought for every pension and every penny, tooth and nail at the bargaining table. Our struggle continues.

UE Member from Ohio here. Solidarity!

For 16 years, I was a union rep at the school district I taught in in Illinois. Without fail, a couple of weeks before each new contract was being negotiated, lots of non-union members would give me their secret wish lists for consideration. And this wasn't a fair share shop, either. They wanted something for nothing, and screw everybody else. Disgusting greedy bastards.

but "confessions of a union buster" is about how far corporations will go to get rid of unions. i heard the author speak on pacifica radio years ago and some things he was saying was not pretty. everything from threats, blackmail, false accusations to even murder. he said what some of the corporations did to screw labor, made any union look good and decent.

things that were done as late as the 1970s to bust unions.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Stayin_Alive.html?id=xz-EINoBGNcC

be aware of our experiences on that issue.

The most extreme "gun rights" above *A*L*L* else elements I met around our Occupy were signing on with a Grover Nordquist-style pledge coming from Rand Paul and being carried to Congress in legislation that would have prevented the U.S. from participating in U.N. gun-control treaties that would limit the flow of "small" arms into other countries. THINK about what that unlimited arms sales environment MEANS to the future of American armed forces!!! Especially around a President like Rongny!!!!

LOOK at responses coming from that part of the political spectrum in re Benghazi!!

I can tell you completely honestly that a few of these gun activists around our "Occupy" were NOT MENTALLY NORMAL. And I'm using " " there because I am certain that these people were not authentic Occupiers. They quit us early; I heard from someone who went to live with them that there was a great deal of fighting amongst that cohort, until a certain few left this area to go live elsewhere in this country, in an area known to have a growing "survivalist" culture.

I'm telling you this, because I don't think most gun-rights advocates have associations with this extreme element, which is promoting sole allegiance to Rand Paul above country, and who are so convinced that "It's all over, but the shooting" that they appear to be creating a self-fulfilling prophecy around that, which plays directly into the political hands of the Timonty LeHay, Evangelical End Timers very sweetly.

And I don't imagine that most of this is new news to DOJs across this country, so, though I feel a little uncomfortable here talking about people who are gone from this area now, I'm pretty sure that these are the "small potatoes", relative to other folks around Rand Paul.

The point being: Gun-rights advocates are in a political position in which they MUST ask themselves how much harm they are willing to bring down on American Armed Forces in other countries and whether their allegiance to this nation is more valuable to them than promoting whatever "revolution" they all are bandying about.

Most are just regular old factory workers who hunt and have guns for sport and self-defense and don't want anyone to infringe on them. I think the Democratic Party Platform would be better served if it backed off on gun control.

I get called a commie and a socialist on many pro-gun boards, so I've definitely experienced what you are speaking of.

informed, otherwise they are ir-responsible gun advocates who, in my book, don't care about putting OUR soldiers in harms way.

I'd appreciate if you'd give me a link to the anti-gun plank in the Democratic Party Platform. I'm ignorant on that matter.

Thanks.

gun advocates clearly want to make happen.

Work at a place where the para-professionals and support staff are represented by AFSME. Most (90%+) are Reichbots, and with more than a few being of the Reichbot Horribulus class.

Funny thing is, the most virulent Reichbot's are also the biggest fuckoffs.

as a retired Teamster member with 30+ years of service. Doing organizing of shops has it's little ups and downs,but,once you educate the group as to benefits,it's worth the grief. We used to call these folks the Joe Lunchbox Crowd,we knew they would vote against their best interests,but,they sure liked their pay raises and their first dollar coverage on their H &W programs. Always looked at it like herding cats. The most interesting members where the Rinos and Dinos,piss and moan about politics and their comin fer ma guns and God's gunna stop em. If they only knew how many of the Brothers and Sisters belong to the gay community,their heads would have exploded. Always amazed at people who believe in the Ozzie and Harriett crap.

Lots of his union coworkers are Republicans. Their guns and making sure gays don't get married are more important to them than their jobs and pensions. (Granted, we're from Bumblefuck so it's not terribly surprising). My dad is a retired IBEW electrician (a "narrow back" not a lineman), also grew up in Bumblefuck but always has supported Democrats. His dad, my grandpa (rest his soul), pure hillbilly to the core, lived through the Great Depression and thought FDR was the greatest president in history, once said "I've never voted for a goddamn Republican in my life!" I think how people are raised is a big influence.

Extremely POOR Marketing by The Unions and the Democratic Party.
THEY are responsible for getting The Word out to the Rank & File.

25 years of Union Busting "Free Trade",

the Party Leadership running from the Unions whenever there is a visible crisis,

and the Party Leadership supporting virulently Anti-LABOR Democratic Primary candidates (SEE: Arkansas & Pennsylvania Democratic Primaries, 2010)

....has not helped.

38% in WI according to exit polling for the Scott Walker recall election. And that was an election spurred directly because of his busting of unions. Incredible.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/06/05/us/politics/wisconsin-recall-exit-polls.html

You're absolutely right. What are these folks thinking?
The R's have been dismantling the middle class and the power of collective bargaining for more than 30 years and now we've got these folks forgetting who cared about them since 1930.
It's sickening. And, i'm in management!