General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIn Ukraine War...Neither side is winning. Is it time to negotiate?
Russia and Ukraine both reluctant to cede territory, but some Western allies are losing patience
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-endgame-analysis-1.6911021
"The history of negotiating with Vladimir Putin for the past 22 years has been a history of broken promises. The Russian state is brutally corrupt, increasingly attached to militarism and increasingly untrustworthy."
Still, the argument fills the pages of the respected Foreign Affairs magazine, where dueling headlines proclaim the conflict in Ukraine is an "Unwinnable War" and negotiations are the only realistic endgame, countered by the claim that "Russia Can Only Be Stopped On The Battlefield."
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/unwinnable-war-washington-endgame?check_logged_in=1&utm_medium=promo_email&utm_source=lo_flows&utm_campaign=registered_user_welcome&utm_term=email_1&utm_content=20230718
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/responses/should-america-push-ukraine-negotiate-russia-end-war#russia-can-be-stopped-only-on-the-battlefield
..
sober thought and analysis
which would you go for?
rampartc
(5,483 posts)i'm sure trump could use his legendary bargaining skill to surrender without informing zelensky.
Lovie777
(12,560 posts)yardwork
(61,897 posts)FSogol
(45,650 posts)and will either aid them or reduce aid to Ukraine.
maxsolomon
(33,531 posts)All the fighting is on their territory. They have suffered terrible damage to cities, to infrastructure, to Ukrainian lives, to their economy. They are nowhere near reclaiming Donetsk & Luhansk on the battlefield, let alone Crimea.
Russia doesn't appear to be running out of weapons or cannon fodder. They've mined the entire front and aren't running out of mines, ever. They still control the Black Sea & (mostly) the air. Putin is not going to be deposed. They can continue a war of attrition far longer than Ukraine can.
Finlandization may be the best Ukraine can get. It is tragic.
yardwork
(61,897 posts)Ukraine has lost, and continues to lose, enormously. It's a miracle they've held out this long and well.
It makes me mad that Russia is getting away with this.
Emile
(23,619 posts)Torchlight
(3,586 posts)At that point, only then may good-faith negotiations begin. War is certainly not unwinnable, except maybe from Moscow's perspective.
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)CanonRay
(14,220 posts)Russia would like nothing better that to pause.
hlthe2b
(102,777 posts)Putin's non-trustworthy history and the analysis is not conservative-biased. Likewise, foreignaffairs.com is a nonpartisan site.
I believe Russia is losing, but I'm not basing that on firsthand knowledge, so I have no problem at least "hearing" from war correspondents for Canadian media or the same from trusted US sources.
I am as pro-Ukraine as it comes, but I'm also willing to read what I may not be ready for or want to consider.
That said, I want to ramp up support for Ukraine, not try to arm-twist them into failed negotiations.
SalamanderSleeps
(609 posts)and the MAGA-Putin Gang should keep their traitorous pie holes shut.
Emrys
(7,328 posts)Your glib framing of a complex situation in an ongoing war as "Neither side is winning" says it all.
What do you suggest they negotiate?
Immunity for Putin and his henchmen for the massive war crimes they've committed and are still committing daily?
If so, you'd reward criminality on a grand scale.
Ceding of Ukrainian territory to Russia?
Look at what it's done in the territory it's already temporarily holding and populations it's subjugated. Repression, torture, rape, mutilation, murder, crushing of dissidence, use of people as human shields, kidnapping of children, basically genocide.
Any prospect that Russia could stage a "peaceful" occupation of Ukraine was snuffed out by its conduct in Bucha and other conurbations.
So ceding would again reward wanton criminality and give no guarantees of a better life for anyone in the region, and would just postpone further hostilities against a better-prepared Russia.
And how would you enforce any settlement that might be negotiated?
Putin never saw a treaty he wasn't happy to flout. Tune in to the Russian airwaves on a daily basis, translated by the likes of Julia Davis, and you'll see that the Putin regime's agenda is bloodthirsty imperialism on a far grander scale than it's attempting currently.
More crucially, repeated opinion polls have shown no appetite for capitulation among Ukrainians themselves. How would you intend to impose any settlement that the population doesn't want, indeed fears?
Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)Emrys
(7,328 posts)Kaleva
(36,495 posts)Don't need negotiations for that.
marble falls
(58,267 posts)... by a long shot.
Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,630 posts)Yeah, thats not how it works.
Chainfire
(17,757 posts)people and government to decide how to pursue or end the war. If the NATO allies are getting bored with the war, they need to step up the aide and give Putin something to fret about. Negotiating with Putin would be like negotiating with Trump; he will tell you what you want to hear and then ignore everything he promised. Smart alliances do not try to negotiate with war criminals.
Clash City Rocker
(3,403 posts)Ukraine surrendered their nuclear weapons. In return, Russia promised to never attack Ukraine. Then Russia attacked Ukraine, proving that Russia cant be trusted to negotiate in good faith.
As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. If Ukraine gives land to Russia, Putin takes it, slaughters anyone in that region who doesnt vow fidelity to Russia, repositions his troops and then attacks Ukraine again to get more. Zelensky isnt that dumb.
Wingus Dingus
(8,060 posts)sarisataka
(19,177 posts)If the aggressor cannot be trusted to negotiate in good faith, there is no reason to negotiate.
There example of a Korean type of ceasefire is a false comparison. The ceasefire line was essentially the prewar border. Do you see Putin pulling back to his border?
Still there are those who would once again give away another country's territory for "peace for our time".
Sky Jewels
(7,259 posts)Enough with the bullshit appeasement of brutal invaders and destroyers of a sovereign nation. Im so fucking sick of the Putin apologists.
Efilroft Sul
(3,599 posts)The West needs to quit dragging its feet on giving Ukraine the weapons it needs to win this war faster.
Sky Jewels
(7,259 posts)This is a scenario on par with Hitler's invasions of European countries in WWII.
The people on the "left" who talk about "negotiating" as if this were some arrangement both sides had voluntarily entered into just enrage me.
Efilroft Sul
(3,599 posts)...something's very wrong. You don't take sides with the goddamned oppressor you kick his ass.
Sky Jewels
(7,259 posts)they're reflexively sympathizing with the USSR over the oppressive "west."
I am about as liberal/progressive as they come (Bernie Sanders level), but I can see through bullshit propaganda, no matter the source. Even Bernie is for aiding Ukraine in its righteous fight against Putin's Russia.
Sky Jewels
(7,259 posts)Efilroft Sul
(3,599 posts)I clicked on the link and Cornell West's grimace half-scared the bejeezus out of me.
Sky Jewels
(7,259 posts)He has done a lot of good things. But it's a shame he's going to ultimately be hurting the progressive side with his third-party b.s. candidacy.
maxsolomon
(33,531 posts)They've got fighter jets, tanks, HIMARS, anti-missile systems, and as many artillery shells as we can produce.
Cruise Missiles?
Efilroft Sul
(3,599 posts)The Biden administration and the German ministry of defense are waffling about sending their respective longer-range ATACMS and Taurus missiles to Ukraine. Bureaucrats in both countries are soiling themselves about Ukraine using those weapons to bring home the war to Russia and are looking into placing range restrictions on them.
unc70
(6,149 posts)Drones are helping, but control of the air is still lacking. Air superiority is still lacking
Pompoy
(126 posts)In the meantime, provide as much help as possible.
anamnua
(1,145 posts)andym
(5,451 posts)The WWI stalemate lasted for 5 years, before the war came to a close with the allies defeating the central powers. A negotiated peace was not possible because of the incompatible goals of the sides as is the case in Ukraine. Russia wants to annex Ukraine, either ASAP or in the near future. Ukraine wants to remain independent. These are incompatible goals and there is no possibility of successful negotiation.
Initech
(100,237 posts)And I think that's the only way we win this war. Otherwise they'll have their sights set on their next target.
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)How'd that work last time?
Recycle_Guru
(2,973 posts)Ukraine and allies should bleed Russia until they get all land back including Crimea.