take care of yourself.

Used to be here long ago. Find the current times too unsettling to be alone anymore.

welcome

Came back after a long time. This community helps me feel less alone.

amazing community of smart, caring, compassionate, committed, kiind and generrous people, so jump right in.

I know how it feels. There is a Holocaust memorial in Europe with the names of an entire branch of my family. There are many who understand and share everything you said here.

While you're 100% correct... humankind has ALWAYS done this.

Whether it's Egyptian armies, Greek armies, Roman legions, Genghis Khan, Napoleon or (insert mood lightener) Ramsey Bolton in GoT...

Humans are violent and wicked animals.

And this is going to be a horror, any way you slice it.

n/t

I'm a lifetime pacifist. I was studying Gandhi when I was a teen. I abhore violence.

I'm also a healer. I recognize that sometimes there is nothing to do for a tumor other than take it out. Surround healthy tissue may also die and suffer. But the cancer needs to be removed and thoroughly destroyed.

They cut off the heads of children - probably while their parents were forced to watch, burned people while they were alive, raped women and dragged their dead bodies through the streets accompanied by cheers. They have lost the right to continue to waste the air they should no longer be breathing.

In fact, get the names of everyone living in Gaza. There’s only 1.3 million adults. How many Hamas members are there? Would genuinely like to know.

Kill the killers. Ought not be killing people just for having the same general appearance.

I’ve known Israelis. Fascinating, smart, brave people. I’ve never known a Palestinian. They don’t seem to get out much.

I'm so tired of the both sidesism or calls for restraint from Israel. Absolutely no other country on Earth would be called to restraint after this.

And I'm so disgusted how much of the far-left and Western world are celebrating this. Every single "Free Palestine" rally in the West is cheering on Hamas and calling for Jews to be exterminated.

The hatred of Israel is, and always has been a hatred of Jews.

I'm convinced that most of those people have very little compression of what they're cheering about.

What Hamas is doing is barbarism and savagery, and it has to be dealt with accordingly. It's also an existential threat to Israel's existence. Hamas wants to completely wipe Israel off the map and will never be satisfied with anything else. That also has to be dealt with.

As an American, I am embarrassed to see people marching in the streets of our cities to celebrate this barbarity. I stand with Israel.

i only knew 1 jewish family growing up, but i was close to their son, and spent a lot of time at their house. i admired them a lot. they were great parents.
the hood i live in now is has been heavily jewish since post war. i have so many good friends of the faith.
not far from skokie il, and just east of a hood w several aruves.
i swear just plain jealousy is a part of it. the heart of it? my jewish neighbors r everything the xtian right pretends to b. if we, as a country, did as much to support the next generation and the older generation as the jewish community here does, i swear we’d have utopia in 1 lifetime.

what is there to hate here? i heard someone say- they started trying to push us out about the time the desert started to bloom. dont know how true it is, but i dont think it’s a lie.

including misogyny.

Which is why "We are competent, you can see how competent we are" doesn't work very well in the long run - although it probably needs to be done in order to reach people who are not haters to the bone but more of hangers-on. The deepest haters know perfectly well the group they hate is not lazy, not stupid, not evil, not unwashed, you name it. That's what fuels their fear, which in turn fuels their hate.

I’m angry as hell.

One religion in particular…can not believe majority of Israelites support this clear war crime…it’s like…what you the world gonna do about it??…we will blame Iran and ask America for more weapons!!…many as needed!

UN? Lol…

WHO WILL NOT BE SLAUGHTERED, this is what happens. Let the two million deal with Hamas. Oh. I forgot. Everyone is under 15 or older than 80. Silly me.

seen since WW2…some should recall…advocating for clear as day legally defined genocidal war crimes is screamingly criminal!

Laying siege to a City..not even a nation…strangling all supplies…bombing from air and sea and ground without warning…

Look at the images…look at the videos…many many many…it’s ok with…what kind of human!?

One of the hallmarks of Israeli military victories over the years, was being incredibly merciful to both civilians and soldiers whom they defeated. Believe me if the roles were reversed the Israeli soldiers would’ve been burned to death with flamethrowers, and you know it.

You might want to ask yourself the question what kind of human allows families to be butchered and says there’s nothing to be done about it because we don’t like war. Well, they brought it on themselves and here it comes in there ain’t nothing that you think or say on a message board that’s gonna change that.

such insensitive and uninformed comments. I agree with you completely.

But why waste time and energy on such people and comments? If we ignore them, such posts and OPs will fizzle. The majority of the US is with you and Israel. Biden is with you and Israel. So are our allies.

Unchecked these people get a foothold and promulgate their BS fake morality.

Hamas is telling civilians to stand in the path of where Israel is going to bomb so Israel can be blamed.

Stop putting this on Israel.

They even told people to get out before the retialiation. But the people are brainwashed by their media run by Hamas.

They cannot get out!

they're telling people in Gaza where the "main bombing zones" are.

This was specifically stated by Democratic Jewish Rep. Dan Goldman after he returned from Israel.

Are you saying Dan Goldman is lying?

where are they going to go?... they're already poor and displaced. And if they congregate for mutual support, do you suppose they will be safe from bombing? They've congregated. Aren't they now a threat? This is an intractable situation. There is no safe place in Gaza now. Not sure there ever was. There is no "we told you what would happen if you...". The mass murder of civilians will happen on one side as a response to the mass murder of civilians on the other side. At this point the history means nothing. The future will be wrought in destruction. Likely it will be lopsided. Just mho.

Hamas locates its people and offices in civilian apartment buildings so they can blame anyone who goes after them for the deaths of civilians.

Israeli policy has been to warn civilians when attacks on Hamas are coming. But, of course, that warns Hamas, too. This time around, Israel is determined to kill off Hamas without letting them get away..

When the Hamas cowards hide among civilians to protect themselves, the consequences are on Hamas. Not killing Hamas allows them to continue killing Israelis.

Hamas is the (albeit relatively ineffective) government of the region. I spent 10 years in Buffalo (i see your wny tag there). Take Buffalo's population times 10 and only double its size. It is apparently the 3rd most densely populated region in the world per Wiki. Government buildings are everywhere in cities. They are on the same blocks as apartment buildings and schools. These are not madrassas. They're just buildings in HIGHLY populated areas. Often the buildings have other civilian purposes. That's not nefarious. It's a canard, used quite effectively, btw, because i hear it often here on DU.

Like i said. It's intractable. There is literally no viable solution that's ever been thought up yet. Destruction will continue. Loss of life will be tremendous. Like i also said, it'll probably be lopsided. Israel has ALL the good weapons from America. It has the money too. Gaza has what 50% unemployment, no industry, no banking, no ports, no allies (not even the West Bank?)... they will lose. They may never recover. I'm not sure Gaza will exist after this. Israel will continue to be a state.

And i think these things are obvious. But people are... stubborn in their opinions about this conflict. To be clear, Hamas committed unforgivable atrocities.

I read a post today at dKos that talked about trying to talk about this conflict on forums.... The post is titled "The things you seldom see in an I/P diary comments section"

“What an interesting perspective! Thanks for the information!”

“You know, I’ll have to ruminate on that one… let me get back to you!”

“I think you’ve changed my viewpoint!”

“I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to be rude.”

“I think we could have a very positive discussion offline. Would you mind if I give you a call or discussed this in an IM?”

“Is there something in your own background/experience that makes you feel that way?”

“I don’t think that’s correct, but I’ll check and let you know what I find out!”

“Well, I disagree, but I’ll consider it.”

“I respect your opinion, but I have a question [followed by an actual question, not a snarky one]”

“I didn’t know that!”

“I think you may actually know more about this than I do.”

“I respect your opinion, but here’s the source I’m relying on. Tell me what you think!”

“Wow, it’s amazing we both can have such strong opinions and still respect each other’s views!”

“I could be wrong, and please let me know if you disagree, but...”

“I’m not sure.”

“We both agree this is a terrible situation. Here’s my suggestion to resolve it.”

“I have no idea, but I’m open to suggestions.”

“I feel bad about my last comment.”

“What can we do together to help, despite our disagreement?”

“I admit my own biases about this stuff. Here are the reasons for that.”

“Let’s find a way to resolve this between us as good Democrats.”

“I think we can find common ground here.”

“How do you feel about that?”

“If what I said before was wrong, I apologize.”

“I appreciate your points.”

“This is why I think this is very important.”

“Can we agree to disagree, and move on?”

“I agree, perspective matters.”

“This needs to end. What can we do to achieve that?”

Gaza has about 15,000 people per square mile. That's similar to Tel Aviv and London.

For comparison, Paris is 53,000 people per square mile - almost 4 times denser than Gaza. Gaza is ranked 63rd most densely populated.

There is little media presence in the Palestinian territories and out American news outlets are content to show just one side of the story. Everything you know about how Israeli soldiers behave when they attack is based on the info handed down by Israeli officials. Surely Dan Goldman did not go into battles himself to witness this benevolence.

which is a Juan Cole blog/mag. He focuses on climate and mid-east issues. Mostly he can explain his positions well and seems even handed. Also Vox is good for being "non-partisan" when explaining issues.

On edit - Wow! What a great site!

Why is Egypt not opening their border?

Everytime a cartel commits atrocities?

The government - not the people.

Drug addicts in the US are too sick to help the Cartels commit atrocities.

Why do people keep posting misinformation here?

You are certain that war crimes are occurring in Gaza. You have identified the victims. You have yet to come out and spell out the identity of the perpetrators. Most people assume that you think it is Israel. I don't want to assume anything.

What I would like is to hear it from you directly. Who do you allege is committing the war crimes that affect 2 million Gazans? Israel? Hamas? Both? Someone else? Is this a war crime without an identifiable perpetrator? Let's focus on the alleged war crimes affecting the Gazan civilians only for now.

If you wish, you may include reasons for your answer.

Thank you.

your answer is both sides are responsible for war crimes. In Gaza. Against the civilians and th nearly 1 million children.

That's a good start,

Now, can you be more specific? Which war crimes are being committed by Israel and which are committed by Hamas against the civilians in Gaza? If I know this, I would be able to respond.

Please spell out what should be fine, and try, if you can, to make it realistic, taking into account the mind set of Hamas and its Palestinian supporters.

What is your idea of how to convince Hamas and their supporters that Israel has a right to exist.

Please tell us your opinion of why Palestinians repeatedly refuse opportunities to have their own state and choose instead to slaughter babies, rape women, and kill old men in wheel chairs. Keep in mind that Palestinians were committing mass murders with terrorist bombs in Israeli public places before Hamas came into the picture.

Sherman was right – burn it all, despite the blood of innocents. Gaza in ashes is the only way to "win" and frankly I don't disagree.

"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace."

and just.

I can't agree.

women, and old men?

the individuals consistently making dramatic, though wholly unsupported assertions which is even more insidious, yes?

The only ones I’ve seen have come from the Palestinian side. Only one side is deliberately killing innocents. Israel is going to defend themselves. As PC Intern says, when Jewish people say “never again” they mean it. Hamas fucked around and is in the process of finding out, big time.

to the population of Gaza. I believe that that is in violation of international law and meets the definition of an atrocity. Of course, I am not on the ground and I get my information probably the same places that you do. Maybe they haven't cut food, water and power off to the area.

Last edited Thu Oct 12, 2023, 07:16 AM - Edit history (1)

As per a number of international legal authorities. And hiding in civilian areas to escape retaliation is a war crime. Hamas is committing this crime, not Israel.

When you've been attacked with a knife a number of times, you may legitimately retaliate with a gun in self defense. Otherwise you risk being hit with a knife until you are unable to retaliate. This is self-evident and self-expanatory. Splitting hairs and twisting them will not change this. I don't need to go any further into this.

And destruction of Hamas as a body, the liquidation of its fighting arm and political apparatus, will be thought by most a thing worth the attempt.

Of course they are Gaza innocents…in a darkened cramped besieged prison of 2 million…a couple thousand dead innocents won’t be missed…more?…less?

Dead innocents in Gaza look the same as dead innocents in Ukraine… least to the innocent, and to me.

Hamas depends for its survival on Israel more or less abiding by the law. It is foolish to continually provoke a powerful foe on whose forbearance you rely for breath. I expect at this point Israel as a polity is pretty nigh through with law. Anyone who's ever argued that Palestinians have been so abused they have no choice but attacking any Israeli they can catch ought to show some understanding for Israeli violations of law under this present duress....

Hamas needs to be wiped from existence, they are no better than Isis.

Last edited Wed Oct 11, 2023, 04:56 PM - Edit history (1)

Hands up!

Other than you, of course? Is that what you would do if the shoe were on the other foot? Does this mean you support what was done to the people of Israel? Should they sit on their hands and wait for Hamas to execute more civilians? And cut off the heads of more babies?

Right?

Stop with this both sides garbage, it's disgusting.

Bibi even said that he would not be satisfied until there were no more Palestinians

If so, no, tt's not OK.

People are confronted by the fact that grotesque atrocity has been committed by the armed forces of a cause they support. As you see above, the reaction is not to face up to what was done, but rather to imagine some future horror, to be committed by the party they oppose and are accustomed to denounce, and cry up this phantom which is/will be so much worse than merely a few hundred people subjected to murderous torment. Being untethered by reality, these imagined atrocities soon to be committed can swell to grand proportions. Yesterday, Israel was going to murder hundreds of thousands of Palestinian children; apparently today, Israel will kill some two millions in its atrocious rage against people who have a right to resist by any means necessary....

And they never acknowledge that Hamas would kill 9 million Israelis if they could.

...against civilian centers.

Not really hard to imagine, and perfectly natural, in that realization, to warn against the inevitability.

To most, in the last attack and subsequent retaliation it looked like pure revenge, instead of deterrence, unless that wanton killing was supposed to be the deterrent (which almost everybody knows was the intention).

I don't know, but I'd guess the poster was responding to myriad suggestions that Gaza now needed to be flattened, wiped out to stop Hamas. It's a sentiment expressed all throughout the reactions and responses; not something conjured by those expressing the concern.

I think it's all the more interesting to watch folks safe and secure in this country insist that the inevitable bombing of Gaza in retaliation is intended to eliminate Hamas, as if bombing civilian centers ever eliminated violent resistance born out of past attacks and retaliation. As if attacking population centers in retaliation for terrorist violence ever produced anything but even more individuals bent on violent resistance.

As if that prospect of bombs raining down on Gaza isn't inevitable, and not intended to spark it's own fear.

At the very least, people making these observations are bolstered in their concerns by the actual history of these conflicts. If in fact, this does not come to pass, it will be more an affirmation of the cacophony of concern, than the denials of the risk.

'Reality' is on the side of those paying attention to the very history of past Palestinian/Israeli conflicts, most notably the last instances of terror attacks against Israel and military reprisals against Gaza's population centers.

'Untethered' are the voices ignorant of that past.

I do not wholly accept your description of previous actions by Israel, but will not argue with them. Details and justifications are beside the point at present

No violent action by the various militant bodies has ever achieved anything but a worsening of the conditions and prospects of the people of Arab Palestine. No campaign of random murder will ever compel the Israeli state to dissolve itself, which is what the men with the guns and bombs aim at. No campaign of random murder can conceivably convince a state to relax security measures constraining a populace from which random killers emerge to strike its citizens.

I know of no solution both palatable and possible. One side or the other must give in and give up. It is in the nature of things the body with the greatest power at its disposal will not be that one. I am not urging anyone to forgo violence as a matter of morality, or even legality. I can see no course besides giving up the gun which offers the slightest possibility of improvement in the conditions and prospects of the people of Arab Palestine. I know when I am repeating the words of the Athenian embassy to Melos: The strong do as they will, the weak suffer what they must. Still, so long as there are armed men willing to kill for it, there never will be a free state of Palestine.

...is to advocate for peace.

I'm a little foggy on who would do the surrendering in Gaza. There isn't any apparent vehicle or authority for the refugees there to dictate to a band of terrorists bent on slaughtering civilians that they should disarm.

Nothing available for the people in Gaza, like in Israel, where they just organized and voted for a 'War Council' to approve their march to war against Hamas; against the Palestinian people, if I understand their past retaliations correctly.

I would consider amnesty as an inducement, I doubt an Israeli government will.

...and Hamas will not voluntarily disarm.

If history is any guide, there will be more killings, more deaths and maiming on both sides before there's some possibility of any long-term assuagement of violence.

We advocate or counsel this or that from our U.S. catbird seats, but the unacceptable violence Hamas perpetrated against Israel's citizens decidedly determined what happens next.

'How say you, war or not?’
‘Not war, if possible,
Lest from the abuse of war,
The desecrated shrine, the trampled year,
The smouldering homestead, and the household flower
Torn from the lintel—all the common wrong—
A smoke go up through which I loom to her
Three times a monster: now she lightens scorn
At him that mars her plan, but then would hate
(And every voice she talked with ratify it,
And every face she looked on justify it)
The general foe. More soluble is this knot,
By gentleness than war. I want her love.
What were I nigher this although we dashed
Your cities into shards with catapults,
She would not love;—or brought her chained, a slave,
The lifting of whose eyelash is my lord,
Not ever would she love; but brooding turn
The book of scorn, till all my flitting chance
Were caught within the record of her wrongs,
And crushed to death: and rather, Sire, than this
I would the old God of war himself were dead,
Forgotten, rusting on his iron hills,
Rotting on some wild shore with ribs of wreck,
Or like an old-world mammoth bulked in ice,
Not to be molten out.’

__Tennyson

If leadership on either side wanted a reasonable settlement of the matter, they'd have managed one long ago.

Thank you for the poem, it's a nice one.

I don't want wipe out anyone, I love regular Palestinians, but to the members of Hamas that dragged a naked woman in the street and broke here legs, and to the others who beheaded babies...yeah, I hope they get taken care of by the Mossad. No mercy to them.

Decide to Do.

Israel Needs our Help and Pres Biden made it Clear that the USA is Standing With Israel.

My wife's family was heavily impacted by the Holocaust. There are still some living survivors in her extended family. She also has cousins in Tel Aviv, and she's been worried sick ever since Hamas attacked Israel.

I've seen how her expression changes whenever we drive past a synagogue with armed guards at the doors during services.

Her anger and sadness are inescapable and visceral.

My Dad's mom was Jewish and yet we never knew her or the traditions. I was lucky enough to be part of BBYP in High School, and really fostered some awesome friendships. (Even experienced hate crime firsthand as the JCC we were having a sleepover at got vandalized, we were grateful they didnt know we were inside...this was 1989 Bay Area)


Anyway, my kid has even changed their name to Tzipporah,and has been observing holidays and going to synagogue for a couple years now.

They are even finding themselves attacked online by strangers over this. Even though they are keeping away from political posting as much as possible...but they have recieved threats from people who say they are Palestinian and Proud Boy and getting death threats!

I often try to hide my head in the sand, so tyey have been keeping me up to speed. Apparently some politicians we both respected as liberal or progressive are also saying some very anti-semitic shit by saying that Israel had it coming etc...
Tragic situation for those on the ground... implications far and wide about how the world seems to be leaning back towards fascism in attitudes all over...

My father and his brother were the only family members who survived, . My uncle lost his wife and 8 year old son, along with my grandparents and his sister, for whom I am named. He remarried. His wife was also a survivor. Every single member of my family of my generation is named for a family member who was gassed and sent to the crematorium.

Before being herded into cattle cars to the death camps, my Aunt witnessed her father being shot to death in their home during a pogrom. She hid and survived.
This brutal ruthless slaughter of innocents in their homes, at a concert, going about their daily lives, brings to mind the pogroms Eastern European Jews endured for centuries and Aktions of the Nazis.
I am boiling with fury for anyone who excuses these vicious antisemitic acts.

I'm with you PC Intern. We cannot and will not stand for this.

This is beyond unacceptable. People need to understand that these Hamas fighters are anything but stupid: this was modeled after the Nazi methodology and was designed to provoke this response so they can hide behind their “civilians” and play “poor us! Look what they’re doing to all of us!!”

Ain’t gonna work this time

nt

I vaguely understand the genesis and roots of racism, and Antisemitism in particular. But on a personal level, I simply cannot comprehend the learned hatred and tradition of violence consistently done to them through the ages of pre- and modern history.

That being said, I think I'm better off with my ignorance of it; I sometimes worry about gazing into the abyss.

I'm not Jewish. When I take my dog to the park in the evening there are a couple nice older Jewish ladies there. I guess I don't understand hating some group so blindly. The actions this week have just exposed the true meaning of evil. This invasion went way beyond a "military operation". It was a genocide. Theres no other word I can think of to describe it.

I feel bad for the children on both sides who have died and will perish in the weeks to come. In the end though I truly hope Israel totally eradicates Hamas, whatever the cost. They probably could've gone another twenty years lobbing the occasional rocket into Israel. Instead they didn't just cross a line, they obliterated it. I fully expect they will get what they deserve.

The Morality Police Specializing in Jewish Behaviors is “out and about”.

My favorite statement about the Jews ever was by Howard Stern, who once said: If the Jews had been given the planet Mars rather than Palestine, in 50 years they would’ve had it up and running and everybody would be showing up there and saying “That’s ours, and we want it back!”

I wonder if that is where Stern got that idea.

or whine about student groups being blacklisted from companies, because they praise Hamas.

This war has really demonstrated how insanely Antisemitic many on the left are.

That the biggest problem with being a Lefty is the anti-Zionism which was really thinly disguised anti-Semitism.

...we are seeing, "if I didn't see it, it didn't happen"; "oh that is fake"; "but the Jews..."; "any violence against them shouldn't be discussed, it is nothing but propaganda to bolster their devious ways", and on and on.

I have seen this show before, and now, we are seeing the reboot.

But for an inexplicable reason the vast majority of the time the scapegoat is the same .2% of the world's population.

I am struggling to understand what is the best course of action for Israel now.

What Hammas did is unfathomable, horrible, terrorism, and inhumane. It is impossible for me to imagine how angry and scared the people of israel and Jews everywhere must be right now. Hammas seems to be counting on that anger and fear prompting such a strong response that they can use it to turn the remainder of the Islamic world against Israel. Maybe expanding the war, but at a minimum destroying any potential to work together for peaceful solutions. I worry that Netanyahu's political struggles and public pressure will lead him right into that scenario. The barbarism from Hammas does demand a response to eliminate the people who did this. Those people are hiding amongst a bunch of civilians who are generally also victims of Hammas. So getting the terrorists will be pointed to as killing civilians no matter how careful Israel is.

How does Israel maneuver this delicate situation? I am very sacred we are headed to a much larger war.

With every atom and graviton of my being and whatever it is that is me.

May God grant us the wisdom to deliver the victims from captivity and to dispense Justice to all who had a hand in the horror inflicted on the People and Nation of Israel.

My family left Germany in the 1860's. They weren't Jewish but did come across a line that was buried in a Jewish cemetery in California.

..........available somewhere on the internet.......Watch it all...all 30 minutes...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217429549


Warning: Most horrific movie I have ever seen.............and .............one thing more:

You WILL HAVE NIGHTMARES OVER THIS MOVIE....... YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

It featured films, and with "Patton" and "The Sorrow and the Pity", I believed they showed this. It may also be part of the documentary "Memory of the Camps" I still have nightmares 45 years later.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/memory-of-the-camps/