There was a huge Nazi-sympathizer group here - had a gigantic meeting which was very well-publicized at Madison Square Garden. Frightening. There were NAZIS everywhere - still are.

but in that more primitive time 🤣 there certainly were people who sympathized with the Nazis, including famous people like Charles Lindbergh and the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.

That event was in the 30's. By the end of the war, there was zero sympathy for those left in Berlin., or anywhere in Germany.

And the civilian deaths in the battle for Berlin were much higher than then the 125k number. Those were rough estimates. But very rough. The real toll is probably closer to 250k. Plus, males between 10 and 70 were pressed into service and called soldiers. Kia, injured, Mia, all mitary.

And if you said that in front of a couple of uncles of mine, you would be trying to pick up teeth with broken fingers. Th we y were from astroria and Brooklyn. Never crossed them over wwii if you knew what was good for your health.

Really. People just wanted the war to be over.

When you push humanity too far, humanity stops giving a shit about you.

It's easy to talk about having a light touch when you are mostly concerned with First World problems.

Wars make entire regions into something like Third World countries for a time, making the mere ability to survive and have the basic necessities a major concern. Taking a "war footing" isn't a metaphor, it's a real thing that must be done during those times. First World concerns like diplomacy and morality are going to take a back seat for a time when the military is driving. A declaration of war is laying the foundation for what's to come.

My mother lived in Getmantown, a neighborhood of Philly. The bund was ongoing and strong there as it was elsewhere. Your statement is like saying there was no civil rights or black power movement after LBJ signed the Act. There were plenty of Nazi sympathizers, the media of the day chose to ignore them

Nazi sympathizers were beat down objects in the 40s. At least in the 5 boroughs. I had many family stories of retribution.

Too many lives were lost. Emotions were raw. Warriors were not in the mood.

I witnessnes'd it in the 60s.

camp out on eastern Long Island, before the war, but after it was clear what the Nazis were.

Their activities were actually banned when the war began.
The Garden event was their one big deal on the national stage & was effectively ruined by Jewish & Italian protestors (really mobsters) who gave their stormtroopers quite a beating, then won the public relations war by getting the American people to blame it all on the stormtroopers.
Their leader was deported to Mexico over non-prosecuted embezzlement and his citizenship was fully revoked.
They lasted about 4 & a half years.
Their predecessor organization was less virulent and fell out of public favor as the nazis took control in Germany. Their own membership was split on supporting what was happening in their homeland.
They were a short-lived, noisy minority.
Now, the business relationships between American corporations & the nation are a different matter. But, those weren't politics. They were strictly about money.

And frankly... a more primitive time.

I'm sure that NO ONE tried drawing moral equivalencies when Scipio and the Romans defeated Carthage, razed the city and killed the civilian population...

Because war was war and that's just the way things go.

I'd like to think humans are more enlightened nowadays.

AND BTW... there should have been a distinction between German civilians and the Nazis... hell, even a fair number of actual Nazis only held an NDSAP membership card because one NEEDED the membership to work at a number of jobs or take contracts from the gov't.

Bottom line, the allies waged a war of terror on the population to "teach them a lesson"

And not just Germany... Japan, too.

Yes, I was glad to trade my tiger-skin for some modern clothes when I middle-aged.

Another historian heard from .

Life would have likely been hellish for me back then.

Hard pass on hagiographical treatments of the 1930s and 1940s in America.

Not to treat them a lesson.

But you do you.

They knew everything going on, including the destruction of Jews and other "undesirables," and most of them were either active, willing participants in all of it, or cheered it on if they were on the sidelines.

Towns fought to get concentration camps or businesses did the same to get Jewish slave labor. Newspapers touted the opening of the camps and the exfiltration of the Jews.

They.

Were.

Not.

Innocent.

The claims of ignorance were always a self-serving lie.

The broad claim about all the Germans knowing what the Nazis did is false. I suppose this claim leads to the supposition that all the people of Gaza likewise knew everything Hamas was doing and should therefore be dealt with the way we dealt with the Nazis.

My own mother and her parents did not know about the death camps and the many of the atrocities committed by the Nazis. They assumed the Jews and other "undesirables" had been relocated to work camps rather than systematically murdered. They didn't like the regime but they had to keep their heads down and be quiet about it.

I recently read "The Devils Will Get No Rest" which is an in-depth look at the Casablanca Conference between Allied leaders and staff from the records and memoirs of the top military and staff surrounding Churchill and Roosevelt. Night bombing vs. daylight bombing was also an issue.

daylight bombing because they could see the industrial and transportation targets better and bomb them instead of bombing civilians.

And bit of an error.

1. The USA, Britan, France, etc. allies were not in the Battle of Berlin. Only the Soviet Union. The other allies took control of predetermined areas of administration after the Russians conquered Berlin.

2. The Nazi's showed no mercy towards those of Slavic decent, to them, they were just one step above Jews and should be enslaved (even today there is a bit ethnic racism against them as they are considered intermingled with Mongols).

3. Soldiers in the Red Army would liberate their villages, homes, etc. as they moved towards Germany and discover, mass graves, villages completely wiped out, Jewish extermination camps, etc.

4. Some Soviet Generals did ask their troops not to mass murder, rape, etc. civilians, but were under no illusion they could stop it, too many wanted revenge, and what they did still didn't reach up to the level what the Nazi's did to them.

5. A lot of those Civilians in Berlin were armed as they were given orders to fight to the last man, woman and child...and a number did. Children were given anti tank grenades and told to hide until a Soviet tank came by, run, activate it under the tank and hide. Many Nazi's told them that they would shoot them if they abandoned their positions.

6. And finally, a lot of Nazi officers fled out of Germany using their influence and wealth. Others surrendered to the western allies, all the while knowing the slaughter their populace would go through due to the orders they gave them.

You can't use that comparison.

during the battle of Normandy.

Civilian casualties were expected. Especially during a conflict where precision weapons did not exist

..but that doesn't excuse his slaughter of people.

Civilian casualties in this day and age are considered unconscionable as we do have more precise weapons and recognized international norms. Hamas doesn't recognize that and stay with barbaric practices. To practice the same, means you are no better than them.

If one accepts that and thinks that is acceptable, then that is their moral failure, but it isn't mine.

wiih 140,000 dead.

After all, war is hell and the precedents have been set.

The Nazis had the power of a state behind them; Hamas does not. It makes a difference because the Nazis could (and did) compel civilians to stay and defend Berlin. That was a major factor in the number of civilian casualties they suffered.

Hamas doesn't have that kind of power, really. If people are staying in Gaza, it's more likely because either they're too stubborn/reckless to leave (much like those who don't evacuate before a hurricane here), or they have serious reasons for not evacuating (poverty, poor health).

So the two situations aren't really the same.