He was proposing a federal law that would forbid the feds from doing business with any company that shipped jobs overseas, etc.

You have a reason to be negative, but it shouldn't be because the Dems didn't try.

He forgot to put the lock-down on Newt Gingrich's congress about protecting American workers.

because his veto could be over-ridden, he decided to take credit for it, endorse it and sign it. It was simply politics, the Bubba way. And it infuriated the Republicans when he did it.

Sam

Although with caveats

are also for immigration - be it legal or illegal. I don't see how anyone can be against free trade and for immigration.

I don't blame free trade treaties for our current problems.

Can you explain?

a much more equitable distribution of income than we have and much stronger unions and safety net.

as Germany and France off-shore manufacturing to China with NO repercussions?

I don't think I've seen a Bosch item with the label, 'Made in China' on it.

After WW2, I believe Germany made Constitutional Policies for strong unions....since Hitler had gotten rid of them very earlier in his takeover.

Remember Perot who ran for President in 1992? He talked of Free Trade Treaties and 'that giant sucking sound' as to where American jobs were headed.

I loved his charts. He was quite the character....and very correct about 'that giant sucking sound.'

they have the same WTO-tariffs with 'non-free trade' countries like China that the US has.

You are right that Germany has constitutionally protected strong unions which has resulted in manufacturing wages that are 50% higher than in the US. Nonetheless, their manufacturing industry is very healthy and export oriented. They have adapted very well to being a high-wage, exporting economy.

not so much with the outside world.

South Africa, South Korea, Turkey and many others. With the rest of the "non-free trade' world, they abide by the same WTO tariffs agreements that the US abides by.

Many European countries (in particular most western European countries) have higher levels of immigration and foreign-born residents than the US has.

at least in Germany and no doubt elsewhere - or at least a major part of it. And I think that's why the corprats will do ANYTHING to get rid of all unions in the U.S.

manufacturing industry.

open immigration. They also have the most bizarre idea that government should protect its citizens and sovereignty.

That is considerably more open immigration than we have.

They do protect their citizens with progressive taxes, strong unions and an effective safety net, not by isolating themselves. They understand they are part of a larger world that they must coexist with.

as commonly understood. Sometimes I believe you guys are just screwing around for the sake of shit stirring, other times I wonder if you really think we are that dumb, and sometimes I'm afraid that you really are that deluded.

Just because they call it "free" trade doesn't mean that it is good for the economy.

In fact, these trade agreements are designed to protect the big corporations and eliminate competition.

Just call them what they really are: They are Corporate Protectionist Trade Agreements.

Illegal immigrants are hired by employers because the employers can cheat them and misuse them without the illegal immigrant being able to ask for help without risk of being deported. Properly designed immigration reform, and rules to take the profit out of hiring illegal immigrants, would go a long way toward solving this problem.

Immigrants are working and spending the money they make here, which keeps it circulating through the economy.

Free trade lets a corporation cut out all those people that would benefit from the wages being spent by paying virtually nothing in another country and pulling the profit straight to the top.

I think the GOP is/was pandering to social conservatives. A large base of voters.

Now that they lost, they are quickly compromising on immigration.

Businesses know that legal immigrants are more willing to work at minimum wage jobs than people who have been here their entire lives.

Open immigration is a concomitant free flow of labor.

I agree: We need to re-evaluate our priorities and act on them.

"So the decision is ours. Do we want a country for the few or do we want a country for the many? The time is now to make that decision."

Indeed.

The jobs went overseas with tax breaks and with low/no tariffs on the return goods in part because of NAFTA Gatt and the WTO. Bill Clinton signed NAFTA and GATT into being. Ask him about that. The Repugs are straight up about supporting the 1%, but the Dims do it, too. They are just sneakier about it.

Clinton also removed Glass-Steagal so Wall Street could do whatever it wanted. I remember being so upset over that.

I don't know if the Dems are sneakier. I think it's more of the Dem people not paying attention when the prez is a Dem.

GATT in 1994.

The idea for multilateral institutions to control international trade was part of FDR's vision for the post-WWII world. Until the 1980's republicans were the high-tariff party and Democrats (from Woodrow Wilson to FDR to Clinton) were low tariff proponents.

Hudson, M. Super Imperialism. The Origin and Fundamentals of U.S. World Dominance

Rickards, J. Currency Wars: The Making of the Next Global Crisis

they get the break for business expenses, which can include the cost of moving jobs overseas & defer payments on income made overseas till it gets repatriated.

if you don't believe me check factcheck.org for more details

back to the US. I call that a tax break.

There is precious little will to even stop exacerbating the problems. The primary debate is the correct path to make them worse and the demographic make up of the powerful and wealthy.

Too negative is not an issue for you at all here. Diplomatic is more like it, to my mind.

I'm tired of the myth that any business CREATES jobs.

Demand from consumers creates jobs. People start businesses large and small to meet a demand of some type. Whether that demand is a service, a tiny rarely used widget, or basic commodity that is used by everyone, only demand of it will create a job and supply of some sort.

I will completely agree that the various trade agreements that have outsourced so many jobs is the root problem. Until that problem is addressed, no amount of demand or entrepreneurship will stabilize our economic and employment situations.

But it is ultimately the business who is actually creating a job. The business is deciding it can afford to pay someone.

There might be a demand but if a business can handle the demand with the work force they have then they will not hire anyone on thus not creating a job.

So I would say businesses create jobs.

"There might be a demand but if a business can handle the demand with the work force they have then they will not hire anyone on thus not creating a job."

That is exactly correct. ONLY demand can create jobs. Period.

I'll give the paperclip as an example as we all know the story. The guy that invented it made a bunch of money after developing it and marketing it.

However, the need to bind papers together (or whatever) was the driving force behind everything to do with the paperclip from the idea, development, marketing and eventually the job creation it lead to.


Now we are stuck in a what comes first, the chicken or the egg, situation.

We need jobs that pay a living wage to create demand. The only way to create those living wage jobs is by driving demand up.

The easiest and quickest route to begin that process is by ending outsourcing and creating trade laws that make it more profitable to meet US demand by building things within the US.

BTW, welcome to DU

You are right, we are in a tough spot right now..

We are stuck in a downward spiral to third world status. Somehow, through stimulus and a few other minor packages of help to the poor, we've managed to put a pause on that downward spiral. However, it really is only a pause.

Unless we end the benefit of outsourcing our jobs to companies large and small, the downward spiral will continue.

Unemployment rates are only half the battle. Quality jobs building and servicing quality products within the US is the ONLY way we will ever begin a true recovery.

We rely on China and India for that kind of industrial capacity. This was done as a way of pitting labor forces against each other in the pursuit of ever greater profits. Global labor arbitrage is a real phenomenon.

Their key priority is extending American influence in the world. If that means screwing labor while corporations carry the flag into India, so be it. If that means screwing a corporation in order to curry favor from a foreign government, they do that too.

A large slice of government and finance is dedicated to internationalism (American imperialism) and supporting the geopolitical goals of various constituencies.

moving companies. They get a tax break "when" they relocate. That's been a long standing tax break for companies who moved to larger or more modern facilities. Later it was used to move to "right to work" states....Now they are used to move out of the country. They get to write off all the expenses incurred by the relocation. The trade agreements allow them to keep profits off-shore, to bring in their good without paying import duties etc.

The rich have been waging war on the rest of us for 50 years at least. I hold out little hope for change.

sounds like the 600 definitions of "if"

For fucks sake, corporations receive HUGE tax breaks when they move production out of the US. Putting tags on words is irrelevant.

when you are trying to have an intelligent discussion with people who KNOW it is absurd to say the government gives tax breaks to reward companies for outsourcing jobs. Of course, if the only people with whom you speak are equally ignorant of tax law or inclined toward absurdity continue to say the government rewards outsourcing.

So, you own acme anvil inc.

You can receive a huge tax break WHEN you actually relocate your production outside of the US.

However, we won't call it a tax break FOR moving the production outside of the US after it happens.

Yeah, it really is absurd to look at the framing of words and numbers.

Corporations receive tax breaks for outsourcing our jobs. THIS IS A FACT! It can NOT be disputed.