And I don’t think you understand the meaning of the term “genocide.”

Hamas attacked Israel. Hamas didn’t attack military installations but intentionally targeted civilians.

- Reports indicate about 1,200 civilians were killed by Hamas on 10/7. Of course, many of those were citizens of other countries, like the U.S.
- 364 civilians were killed at a concert. Gunned down while trying to hide in trees, cars or wherever they thought the terrorists might not find them. At least 40 others at the concert were taken hostage. Many women were raped. Shani Louk, a young woman attending the concert, was kidnapped, raped and murdered by Hamas, then her body was thrown in the back of a truck and paraded around Gaza to the cheers of its citizens, some of whom abused her corpse. There are many similar stories. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/the-story-of-11-families-who-were-victims-of-hamas.html
- Many Israeli civilians were butchered in their homes with bullets, fire or knives. This story discusses a family of 5, who had moved to Israel from Boston, found dead in their beds. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-attacks-funerals-76ddd26c80c6c4662987c0dd708d6707
- Hamas’ cowards raped and sexually mutilated 100s of women. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_7_October_attack_on_Israel
- Hamas still holds at least 200 hostages it kidnapped on 10/7, some of whom are infants. Numerous reports confirm that Hamas routinely rapes the female hostages. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2024/03/31/hamas-hostage-crisis-amid-war-gaza/73131624007/

After all this occurred, Israel invaded Gaza in an attempt to eliminate Hamas so that it could not kidnap, murder and rape Israeli civilians in the future. Like all cowards, Hamas didn’t want to face justice, so it hid in Gaza’s homes, hospitals and schools. During this conflict, many civilians undoubtedly have died. And others were killed while trying to assist the civilians caught in the crossfire. But let’s be clear—Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians. It isn’t attacking concerts, or raping women and parading their bodies in trucks, or going into homes and targeting families at dinner or in their beds.

Hamas’ stated goal is the elimination of every Jew in the Middle East. That is genocide. The Holocaust was genocide. Rwanda was genocide. The Khmer Rouge committed genocide. Israel is waging war against a terrorist organization.

. . . . used by a mass murderer instead dealing with the issue at hand - the gun. Whether automatic, semi automatic, hunting, assault, or whateverthefuck, it just killed a lot of people.

Similarly, arguing about the term "genocide" allows the talk to go past the real issue - dead people.

And what is happening in Gaza isn’t that. So the answer is to stop misusing the word.

I wonder if some of the disagreement on DU isn’t the result of immediate access to news. What’s happening in Gaza is simply war, not genocide or ethnic cleansing. Civilian deaths happen in every war, but now you can read about them every day, and you can even read the disinformation published by Hamas in real time. The U.S. public didn’t learn about My Lai until over a year after it happened.

It's all that.

How 'bout "drinking the blood of Christian children"? Oldie but goodie, no? And just as accurate.

Saying it isn't is really some kind of weird flex.

Who gets to define ethnic cleansing these days?

I go by the definition that was accepted by the UN Secretary General in 1993.

..."ethnic cleansing" means rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area."

https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n93/083/51/img/n9308351.pdf?token=mmurLA1HtCbnahUFal&fe=true (p.16)

What is the definition from your textbook?

It is textbook ethnic cleansing, as per literal textbooks and per THE LITERAL GLOBAL LAWS OF WAR. And, it is also the literal definition of ethnic cleansing.

You still trying to argue this away by these kind of debate tactics and HAMAS HAMAS HAMAS is no longer working. Israel and the IDF are breaking intrenational law.

They’ve always been unfairly treated.

Historically Jews have been discriminated against, they've suffered pogroms, ethnic cleansing and genocide. Unfortunately the lesson many took from that is not understanding and tolerance, but violence and might against anyone who fails to completely submit to their rule.

It does not make starving innocent children and killing aid workers justifiable.

the the non-existent made up stuff?

That removes all fairness from the debate, doesn't it?

Of course I will not stop asking you for references. That's how people can tell the difference between real stuff and made up stuff.tell You keep telling me there is a literal textbook and literal global laws of war. If you have something literal to refer to, why do I have to stop asking you to refer to something literal?

I gave you something very literal. In fact, I gave you the definition of ethnic cleansing that is universally used in textbooks and in administering laws of war. Literally. Do you see anything in that definition that resembles your idea of ethnic cleansing whose origins you refuse to identify? If not, you have no standing to continue with your nonsense.

And sure, it is my fault that I know WTF I am talking about and you evidently don't.

Apples and oranges. I have studied My Lai and that was nothing like you are describing. I wrote a paper and My Lai was part of the research. False equivalent.

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun

noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

To be honest, couldn't care any less what it's called. I know what I'm seeing and I know what I'm thinking.

I also wonder why the use of the word bothers some people that causes them to post the same admonishment over and over.

used for propaganda purposes. Everyone knows that the Jews suffered a genocide in Europe during WWII. Hateful, anti-semitic people have always tried to deny that genocide. This is just another way to try to take away the rightful fact of genocide against the Jews. Palestinians who coopt the term for themselves hope to win sympathy and turn the tables, turn people against Israel and Jewish people. I am not any more impressed by this propaganda than I am by the "From the river to the sea" sentiment.

Gaza's people are war casualties, not victims of genocide. Hamas killed innocent Israelis, and the result was a war against Hamas in Gaza.

maybe it should stop brutally slaughtering and starving tens of thousands of innocents.

The dehumanization of Palestinians and the discounting of their right to live that I routinely see on DU, like your comment, is beyond disgusting.

So any Israeli who "supported the attacks on (Gaza), but didn't directly participate, they are still guilty"? Something tells me you aren't going to feel that way when the next car bomb explodes in Tel Aviv.

Along with women, they do comprise two thirds of the IDF victims.

as well as being in violation of the Geneva Comvention.

When young children are taught hate against a people, and are trained to use a gun early on, to fight/kill those same people, are they not guilty if they participate?

but if you're asking me if children brainwashed by adults are "guilty" for doing what adults brainwashed them to do, the answer is an absolute NO.

and I doubt you are either.

not necessarily in others. In any case, the circumstance of being a child raised by terrorists changes things considerably. Have a nice one.

and you know that. Conflating the two things and insisting any criticism of Netanyahu’s brutal ethnic cleansing is “anti-Semitic” is highly disingenuous and will not stop people from speaking out against the Israeli government’s depraved actions.

conflated the two things, the Israeli government and the Jewish people? I have separated them in my posts. How dare you say that that I am insisting on anything about Netanyahu's "brutal ethnic cleansing?" WTF are you talking about? You do not get to put words in my mouth!

The poster didn't put words into your mouth.

But go ahead. Pile on.

I look forward to reading your thoughtful and clear responses here on this website.

‘genocide’ is limited to the attempt by the German government during WW2 to eliminate all the Jewish people in Europe.

The term that uniquely describes that horror is ‘the holocaust’.

There is an international treaty implemented in 1948 that defines the war crime of genocide. What Israel is doing in Gaza qualifies.

No good faith discussion will be possible.

It's a bumper-sticker slogan intended to stir the pot... nothing more. By using the term incorrectly, over and over and over and over and over and defending the incorrect use of the term again and again and again, the interlocutor is attempting to "win" the debate by making their debate opponents into absolute monsters who support "genocide" and bathe in the blood of children.

It becomes impossible to have a serious discussion with them.

And that... is the point.

in the blood of children, that is ridiculous. However their military occupation of Gaza appears to be violating international treaties against genocide.

Well stated!

mowed down at the food drop off, right? Not like in a real war where soldiers fire back.

I suppose you have your own definition of that, too, just like you have for genocide.

In a real war, do real soldiers massacre people at music festivals? Do they take hostages and hide behind (or underneath) civilian hospitals?

You don't get your own definitions for any of these things.

As of 5 March 2024, 30,228 Palestinian and 1,410 Israeli have been reported as killed, including 94 journalists (89 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese) and over 136 UNRWA aid workers.

for your outrage. No one is happy about what is happening in Gaza. Goodbye.

Last edited Thu Apr 4, 2024, 07:50 PM - Edit history (1)

They gave the definition given by the 1948 international treaty.

The October 7th attack was a monstrous act of terror, a crime against humanity whose perpetrators should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law...That said, It doesn't justify the mass slaughter of thousands of innocent Palestinian men, women and children.

We know what has happened because some here told us over, and over, and over again. I can understand why but it has gone over the top.

My sympathy goes to the families of the aide workers that died.

Not much has been said about them.

The UN says Israel is committing Genocide!

It is what it is whether you agree or not!

Peace✌🏼

and the ICJ denied SA's demand for Israel's immediate withdrawal from Gaza based on its "genocide" claim, not once, but twice.

Welcome to DU. I read profiles.

Link to tweet

That Sudan was not a genocide:

https://reliefweb.int/report/sudan/sudan-un-has-ruled-out-genocide-darfur

Then in November of 2023 posted this:
Sudan: UNHCR warns Darfur atrocities of 20 years ago may reoccur

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/11/1143447

inducing a famine sure is. i’m at the same point. i staunchly support israel’s right to exist. but they r setting themselves outside the limits of civilized ppl.

. . . concerning its whereabouts and activities. Its trucks were clearly marked, on TOP. What's more, several WCK workers reported being fired upon by an Israeli sniper a few days before.

Israel had a responsibility to make sure the information concerning WCK's whereabouts and activities was passed down the chain of command. If it wasn't that's on Israel.

There is no excuse for the paltry amount of aid being permitted into Gaza. Israel is quite deliberately starving an entire population. Thus it becomes increasingly difficult to just brush this incident aside as part of the "fog of war." It has long been a goal of Netanyahu's Likud Party to displace as many Palestinians as they can. Previously, they had been doing it with illegal settlements; now, they are doing it by killing them outright.

It's not "simply war" when one side is VASTLY outgunned with 2/3 of their casualties being children and women.

Or, perhaps they did, and didn't care. From prior reports of Hamas' actions and deeds, the latter seems more in tune with reality.

We are witnessing genocide, and some are arguing about the definition of the term. They are on the wrong side of humanity, and show us who they really are.

They need to believe what they see, not what the IDF tells them.

The same people defending Israel would be wagging their fingers that the ICJ is not legitimate/ has no real power etc.

Most have already said as much.

before enough is enough.

They have now, repeatedly, attacked food assistance vehicles, each time claiming it was an "accident".
They have created conditions that have forced over a million people into an area only meant to support a fraction of that number, don't allow escape and destroy all infrastructure into that area, forcing hundreds of thousands of people to starve to death or die of disease from unsanitary conditions.
Here is the rub, if the intention is to rescue hostages but the hostages are dying or already dead of starvation too since they are in the same boat as everyone else in Gaza.

How do you propose Israel attack and defeat Hamas

And other assistance is often a strong motivator. Especially so when people already have so little.

to get hostages back, although Hamas would also demand the release of their terrorists being held by Israel.

Your solution would not accomplish the Israeli goal of eliminating Hamas. It would give Hamas more money and released terrorists for the next round of Hamas attacks on Israel.

Imagine after 9/11 if Bin Laden had demanded money and the release of past convicted terrorists as a condition for not attacking the US again. Would the US government and people have supported that as a solution to ending terrorism against Americans?

Why would you give money to terrorists?!? That is not at all what I wrote. You give the money to Palestinians. For information. Eventually you will start to figure out where they are being kept and the conditions they are under.
You then conduct specific, targeted raids to get back as many hostages as you can and completely cripple Hamas operations in Gaza.

It's child like naive to believe you can "destroy Hamas". blowing people up does not forge peace, only conflict. The war with Japan or Germany or Italy did not end with a peace agreement, it ended with international aid to rebuild their respective nations and giving their people an opportunity to rebuild their lives and their country. That how you create a real and lasting peace.

for rebuilding nations AFTER the war ended. During the war, didn't the combatants bomb the hell out of each other? London blitz, Berlin blitz, Nagasaki, Hiroshima.

I misunderstood your suggestion of using money. I did not realize that you meant to use it as a bribe to civilians. I'm glad to see that someone is suggesting alternative tactics to massive bombing and cutting off aid. I, too, have wished to see more specifically targeted efforts by Israel, using Intel agencies and special operations.

I see what Israel's military strategy is and why they are using it. I want to see an alternative, too. Israel's bombing is intended to destroy Hamas networks and tunnels to force them out into the open with no place to hide now or in the future, making it impossible for Hamas to regroup. Israel does not want to sacrifice its limited supply of military and Intel personnel by going into the tunnels to search and fight where they would be wiped out with one blast by Hamas.

I think that Israel would not trust info gained through bribes and would be suspicious of being set up.

This is not a war between uniformed armies on both sides. It is an urban guerrilla war fought by terrorists on one side who are embedded in the civilian population. Those guerrilla fighters do hijack food and medical aid for themselves. Israel is convinced that they can limit the aid reaching the fighters, but that tactic also limits aid to civilians, causing starvation and famine. The Israeli policy of monitoring aid also results in trigger happy soldiers executing people who deliver aid. It is harming innocents and backfiring on Israel in lost international support.

Hamas does not and never will negotiate in good faith. They operate for themselves and their own power, not on behalf of the Palestinian people. They have rejected ceasefire negotiatiations as much as Israel has.

Add Israeli politics into the mix in this war. Netanyahu faces criminal charges in Israel that go back to before the 10/7 attacks. He failed to protect Israel from those attacks. He is coming on strong as a ruthless hawk to save his own political neck.

One possible angle that is being considered in negotiations by the US and nations in the region is to strengthen the Palestinian Authority as an alternative representative of Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank.

Is not going to defeat Hamas.

not to mention those who try to provide humanitarian aid to innocent Palestinian’s in Gaza.

regulate what is permitted and what is forbidden in armed conflicts and occupations.

Like we are stupid. "It's war, civilians die in wars!@@!" My God. They do, which is why we have these international laws.

Thanks for mentioning that

You refuse to accept the reality of what Bibi and the idf are doing.

The Rome Statute specifically defines the deliberate use of starvation as a war crime at Article 8.2(b)(xxv):

who think that Israel should cease to attack Hamas and retreat from Gaza leaving the hostages behind. My understanding is that Israel is determined that attacks such as the on on 10/7 never happens again.

What I don't understand is why there is no outcry against Hamas and demand that they surrender and return the hostages. There is no Palestinian contrition and demonstrations against Israel began before Israel even responded.

Yes, I understand that there are those here who acknowledge and condemn the events of 10/7, but then offer no alternative solution to Israel's response.

Citing sources other than Hamas health ministry would be helpful.

Since Israel has managed to kill almost 100 journalists in Gaza (only 69 were killed in all of WWII) getting accurate news is a bit of a problem. Of course that is exactly the strategy.

who, according to the post I replied to, are "starving Gaza to death".

Other than the Hamas government, whose numbers are you basing your claims on?

Here you go. https://cpj.org/2024/04/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/