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kpete

(72,014 posts)
Sun Apr 14, 2024, 06:23 PM Apr 14

Thoughts on a Pretty Good NYT Poll-The latest New York Times/ Siena poll shows BIDEN campaign has some momentu

DAN PFEIFFER
APR 14, 2024

Yes, it’s finally here and it confirms what all the other polls have been showing for the last month. Acknowledging that the NY Times Sienna poll is considered the gold standard among the cognoscenti, Dan Pfeiffer does a nice analysis of what it says about this moment in time:

The Democratic coalition is heading home. As the New York Times’ Shane Goldmacher wrote in his analysis of the poll:

Mr. Biden’s tick upward appears to stem largely from his improved standing among traditional Democratic voters — he is winning a greater share of voters who supported him in 2020 than he did a month ago. Then, Mr. Trump had secured the support of far more of his past voters compared with the president — 97 percent to 83 percent — but that margin has narrowed. Mr. Biden is now winning 89 percent of his 2020 supporters compared with 94 percent for Mr. Trump.


MORE:
https://digbysblog.net/2024/04/14/nyt-poll-nyt-poll/
https://www.messageboxnews.com/p/thoughts-on-a-pretty-good-nyt-poll?utm_campaign=email-post&r=9udc&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
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Thoughts on a Pretty Good NYT Poll-The latest New York Times/ Siena poll shows BIDEN campaign has some momentu (Original Post) kpete Apr 14 OP
Who says NYT/Siena is the "gold standard" among polls? Fiendish Thingy Apr 14 #1
among the cognoscenti? senseandsensibility Apr 14 #2
"Most pollsters seek to get a sample of 1500-2000" TwilightZone Apr 14 #3
Anything regarding "the holy goddamn New York Times!" calimary Apr 14 #4
Several things dsc Apr 14 #6
Biden has had the momentum for quite some time now calguy Apr 14 #5
I don't pay much attention to polling, but isn't this the outfit that found Dean Phillips has 12 percent support? shrike3 Apr 14 #7

Fiendish Thingy

(15,656 posts)
1. Who says NYT/Siena is the "gold standard" among polls?
Sun Apr 14, 2024, 06:33 PM
Apr 14

It’s a deeply flawed poll that has been torn to shreds by critics.

From the poll’s methodology page:

• We spoke with 1,059 registered voters from April 7 to 11, 2024.
• Our polls are conducted by telephone, using live interviewers, in both English and Spanish. More than 95 percent of respondents were contacted on a cellphone for this poll.
• Voters are selected for the survey from a list of registered voters. The list contains information on the demographic characteristics of every registered voter, allowing us to make sure we reach the right number of voters of each party, race and region. For this poll, we placed nearly 127,000 calls to more than 93,000 voters.
• To further ensure that the results reflect the entire voting population, not just those willing to take a poll, we give more weight to respondents from demographic groups underrepresented among survey respondents, like people without a college degree. You can see more information about the characteristics of our respondents and the weighted sample at the bottom of the page, under “Composition of the Sample.”
• The poll’s margin of sampling error among registered voters is plus or minus 3.3 percentage points. In theory, this means that the results should reflect the views of the overall population most of the time, though many other challenges create additional sources of error (note: this is the first I have seen this kind of language used by a pollster to qualify how they arrived at their MOE- major red flag). When computing the difference between two values — such as a candidate’s lead in a race — the margin of error is twice as large.

-snip-

Full Methodology
The New York Times/Siena College poll of 1,059 registered voters nationwide, including 875 who completed the full survey, was conducted in English and Spanish on cellular and landline telephones from April 7 to 11, 2024. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus 3.3 percentage points for registered voters and plus or minus 3.5 percentage points for the likely electorate. Among those who completed the full survey, the margin of sampling error is plus or minus 3.7 percentage points for registered voters and plus or minus 3.9 percentage points for the likely electorate.


Most pollsters seek to get a sample of 1500-2000 respondents in order to generate a MOE of 3-3.5%, With a sample of 879 respondents, I don’t see how, even with the vague qualifying statement, this pollster can claim with a straight face their MOE is just 3.7%

senseandsensibility

(17,130 posts)
2. among the cognoscenti?
Sun Apr 14, 2024, 06:43 PM
Apr 14

Those in the know, supposedly? In other words, inside the beltway types. Yes they do seem to love that poll, don't they?

TwilightZone

(25,479 posts)
3. "Most pollsters seek to get a sample of 1500-2000"
Sun Apr 14, 2024, 06:44 PM
Apr 14

No, they don't. The vast majority of recent polls are 1,000 to 1,500 respondents. That range is quite common. Except for Morning Consult, none of the last dozen or so were over 1,500.

https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-biden

"we give more weight to respondents from demographic groups underrepresented "

All pollsters adjust for demographic over- or under-sampling.

calimary

(81,466 posts)
4. Anything regarding "the holy goddamn New York Times!"
Sun Apr 14, 2024, 06:51 PM
Apr 14

That was one of my favorite lines from the movie “Network.”

It’s still early. The numbers are already moving in the right direction.

dsc

(52,166 posts)
6. Several things
Sun Apr 14, 2024, 08:14 PM
Apr 14

First the statement though many other challenges create additional sources of error is a mathematical truism not some sort of plot. The MOE only measures error that comes from random chance. It doesn't account for error that people lying may cause, the wordings of questions may cause, problems with the selection of the sample may cause, or any other of the myraid of things that might cause error in a poll. It only tells us the error that can arrise from randomness and even then it only does at 95% confidence meaning 1 time in 20, on average, the poll will be even more in error from just that source.

Second, the MOE. There is a standard formula for the MOE. It is (1.96) square root [(p) (1-p) / (n)] where p is the proportion for one candidate, 1-p would be proportion represented by everyone else, n would be sample size. A sample of 1500 would have 2.53 MOE. I get their number using their sample size (and 50% as the proportion which maximizes). In short, their math is correct.

That said, the weighting can be an issue and the cross tabs will have much higher MOE. It is for the cross tabs that polling companies do larger samples so they have enough of the smaller groups.

calguy

(5,325 posts)
5. Biden has had the momentum for quite some time now
Sun Apr 14, 2024, 06:56 PM
Apr 14

It's just now become too obvious to hide in biased polling questions. When actual voters have voiced their actual opinions in actual elections, the Democrats have been kicking major ass. The Arizona Supreme Court ruling that came down last week put Arizona in good position to go blue again for Biden, and the crazies in Alabama have struck a cord with women in nearby southern states.
The facts as I see them differ greatly with the poll numbers I've been seen the past few months since Biden started actively campaigning.

shrike3

(3,783 posts)
7. I don't pay much attention to polling, but isn't this the outfit that found Dean Phillips has 12 percent support?
Sun Apr 14, 2024, 08:20 PM
Apr 14

Maybe there methodology has changed. That was a headscratcher.

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