should feel safe and they don't. That is all

...which would increase a feeling of safety for all people in the region.

....I don't give credence to what terrorist organizations want, I don't agree with the Isreali government's recognition and support of hamas, and I do agree with the civilians of Gaza who do not recognize hamas as their government.

could solve it with a phone call and won't because "Genocide Joe"?

....maybe you're thinking of another thread?

... for Palestinians and Israelis: the ones who are being abused and murdered?

Netanyahu worked with Hamas to undercut Arafat and the PLO.

I don't think she was trying to be "clever". More like an ask.

Thank You

I don't see why they would lie about that. I really don't.

...I know that the citizens of Gaza and a large percentage of the entire world do want a cease-fire though, and I agree with them.

hamas is a terrorist organization that is terrorizing both Gaza civilians and Israeli civilians and must be eradicated.

The citizens of BOTH Gaza and Israel must be protected.

...your own personal acceptance of hamas as the legitimate government doesn't matter.

Just pretend something isn't true and it doesn't exist anymore. Problem solved!

From the CIA Fact book
The Gaza Strip has been under the de facto governing authority of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) since 2007, and has faced years of conflict, poverty, and humanitarian crises. Inhabited since at least the 15th century B.C., the Gaza Strip area has been dominated by many different peoples and empires throughout its history; it was incorporated into the Ottoman Empire in the early 16th century. The Gaza Strip fell to British forces during World War I, becoming a part of the British Mandate of Palestine. Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Egypt administered the newly formed Gaza Strip; Israel captured it in the Six-Day War in 1967. Under a series of agreements known as the Oslo Accords signed between 1993 and 1999, Israel transferred to the newly-created Palestinian Authority (PA) security and civilian responsibility for many Palestinian-populated areas of the Gaza Strip as well as the West Bank.

In 2000, a violent intifada or uprising began in response to perceived Israeli provocations, and in 2001 negotiations to determine the permanent status of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip stalled. Subsequent attempts to re-start negotiations have not resulted in progress toward determining final status and resolving of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel in late 2005 unilaterally withdrew all of its settlers and soldiers and dismantled its military facilities in the Gaza Strip, but it continues to control the Gaza Strip’s land borders, maritime territorial waters, cyberspace, telecommunications, and airspace. In early 2006, HAMAS won a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council election. Fatah, the dominant Palestinian political faction in the West Bank, and HAMAS failed to maintain a unity government, leading to violent clashes between their respective supporters and HAMAS's violent seizure of all PA military and governmental institutions in the Gaza Strip in June 2007. Since HAMAS's takeover, Israel and Egypt have enforced tight restrictions on movement and access of goods and individuals into and out of the territory. Fatah and HAMAS have since negotiated a series of agreements aimed at restoring political unity between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank but have struggled to enact them.

Some of these protestors aren't doing themselves any favors, A few on camera said, "We are Hamas," and chanted, "No Jewish State," or words to that effect. Not real supportive of the people of Israel OR Palestine, since Hamas is plainly not doing much to ease suffering in Gaza.

So what Hamas wants does matter to the situation in the region even if it doesn't matter to you. If Israel enacts a ceasefire and Hamas doesn't, that means Hamas will just continue to strike at Israel while the Israelis sit there thinking happy, peaceful thoughts.

Why in the world would Israel do such a (very stupid) thing? Unless and until Hamas genuinely wants a ceasefire, there will be no sustained pause in hostilities, nor should there be.

There can be no ceasefire unless Israel and Hamas both agree to it. The people of Gaza may want a ceasefire, but they don't have the power to make that happen. Hamas is in power, and there can be no ceasefire without their cooperation.

Hamas has made it abundantly clear by their actions that they don't care what happens to the people of Gaza. As far as Hamas is concerned, all the Palestinians who have died since this mess started are martyrs to the "holy" cause of eradicating all the Jews from Israel so it can be Palestine again. That is what Hamas wants, and what Gazans may want is immaterial to Hamas.

I have no idea what your point is. We all know Hamas is a terrorist organization. In other news, grass is green, and the sun rises in the east.

That would be Hamas - whom one has to pay attention to because they are not only filthy murdering terrorists, but also the government of Gaza.

...the fact that so many, dead, injured, and traumatized people don't have any kind of functioning civil environment left to even try to oppose the horrific terrorist organization that you call their government.

being your government. Hamas is the government of Gaza. Why do you keep denying that?

You are tap-dancing HARD to avoid condemning these people openly supporting Hamas.

I have no doubt there are gazans who do not support Hamas. Do we know how many? I don't think so.

I think support for Hamas is probably higher than you or I would like it to be.

Hamas has a plurality of the support of Palestinians.
https://pcpsr.org/en/node/963

From March 21, 2024, https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183

Updating that same source:

"Support for Hamas as a political party has fallen to 34% among Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied West Bank, a 12-point drop from December 2023, according to a poll released Wednesday by a leading Palestinian research institute."

https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969

What can we do? Regine change? That's worked out so well in the past.

...that is unwanted by the citizens is not exactly "regime change".

...I am absolutely against doing it in a way that wipes out a hundredfold more innocent civilians than it does hamas members.

That said, I am not a military strategist but I suspect we have the sophisticated tech and intelligence to successfully target whom we want to hit and the know how to find and access them. Didn't some leader of hamas recently do a televised interview lately? And he made it home safely?

I strongly doubt netanyahu would want to do it that way.

Getting us into another way would not be popular. Not to mention the fact that conflicts in the Middle East goes back centuries.

I think Americans are all for debilitating hamas.

Who complain about grocery and gas prices? They're going to be cool with taking out Hamas? Okay. Hopefully, all those weapons that only hurt bad guys'll come out of the woodwork.

I will say it again, I disagree with you and think those Americans would be FOR taking out hamas.

If we went in, we'd better not kill any civilians because that would be more fodder for the far-left and the protestors. Hamas would have to cooperatively stay out of civilian areas. Let's say we take them out. What then? Gaza will be in ruins. Sounds like it already is in ruins, They'll need civilian aid, which I'd fully support. But what happens with government? They hold elections? What if a similar government takes its place? Do we take that out, too?

No matter we do, the far-left in this country will not be satisfied. They never are. And every time we get involved in another country's government, it bites us in the ass. It would this time, too.

Because it would be the right thing to do not the political thing.

Would Hamas cooperate by staying out of civilian areas so that no innocents are killed. Imagine the protests if any were. Then what? We set up a new government? Arrange free elections? What if the results brought a new version of Hamas to power?

Nation building does not go well for us. Nor does regime change. It usually ends up biting us in the behind.

The far left would not be satisfied no matter what we did. They never are. Then there's the fact that Palestine is surrounded by Arab neighbors -- let's forget about Israel for a minute -- who don't appear too interested in the fate of its peoples. There's been conflict there for centuries. We can't fix it. Often when we 've tried to fix things in the past, we've created a new version of worse. When it comes to countries that are not our own, our influence and ability to determine things has always been limited. We have to learn that.

Special forces backed up by specialty army and marine units. Yes there will be protests, yes we will have to help set up a new government with free elections and its possible it could bring a new version of Hamas to power. But I think it would go way better than what is happening now.

Its not a question of whether we would do everything right or it would all turn out good, its a question of whether it would be better than the status quo that is happening now.

Didn't we go in there with boots on the ground, set up a "government" and all that? Worked beautifully, didn't it?

Oh, let's see, we were going to save the world and America too from communism. Then came Vietnam. I guarantee, there were plenty of people back then who thought it was the right thing to do.

But maybe not. At least we would not be shelling civilians with dumb bombs. We would be in there helping to set up hospitals and food. I think the civilian death count would be much smaller and we would have killed more Hamas.

Even smart bombs screw up. Hamas tends to put its people in civilian populations. Not a new tactic, TBF. They weren't the first, they won't be the last either.

Set up hospitals? My brother was sent over as a special contractor to set up a hospital in Afghanistan -- we were going to do that stuff there, too. Wish I had his permission to tell you how that worked out.

Regime change and nation building does not work for us. Won't work this time, either. And you want boots on the ground? Wait 'tiil American casualties start to come in. Americans will just fall in love with that.

Humanitarian aid, sure. As much as we can get over there. Military action? It'd be the dumbest move an American president has made in a long time. They've been fighting for centuries over there. They'd keep fighting, we'd just be in the middle of it. Uh-uh.

And I told you and shelling civilians was not in how I said we could do it. I did not even include smart bombs. Why on earth would you not be able to tell me how setting up a hospital in Afghanistan ended up? Is setting up a hospital top secret? Cant let anyone know we set up a hospital to help the Afghanistan people, is a top national security secret!! Ah snap! I just released top secret information here! Sarcasm- I did not in any way release top secret information.

while serving his country.

I tend to keep confidences. Maybe you don't, but I do.

So, you know how to avoid civilian deaths?. The one person in the history of the world to figure how to do that during an extended conflict. And you're here on DU.

We're very fortunate that the Biden administration will not entangle us in a bloody conflict that has gone on for centuries and is likely to continue with us or without us.

I never said nor inferred at all anywhere that I would be able to do it without civilian deaths. Its insulting that you would then add "The one person in the history of the world to figure how to do that during an extended conflict. And you're here on DU." since I never said anything like that at all. I have no problem with you saying you think I am wrong, I've been wrong many times before and will be again. But there is no reason to insult someone because they don't agree with you. This is not twitter, it's D.U.
Eko.

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2024, 12:32 AM - Edit history (1)

But you do. You wrote, "Why on earth would you not be able to tell me how setting up a hospital in Afghanistan ended up? Is setting up a hospital top secret? Can't let anyone know we set up a hospital to help the Afghanistan people, is a top national security secret!! Ah snap! I just released top secret information here! Sarcasm- I did not in any way release top secret information."

Over-react much? Sheesh.

Time to put you on ignore. Life is far too short

In searching through US military history there are indeed some top secret hospitals. but they are the ones on top secret bases. Either way I was being sarcastic and I can see that it offended you so I apologize. One could take into account you did put words in my mouth in the previous statement so I could have figured I could take liberties as well but apparently that was not the case. Once again I apologize.

By the way doesn't either. This didn't happen in a vacuum. Before the war started Isreal murdered a record number of Palestinian children. But, I think that the only person benefited by this is Netanyahu.

There was a ceasefire in place on October 7, and the Israelis weren't safe.

So, let's not pretend that a magical ceasefire will solve this thing.

Magical thinking also came up with the idea that Biden can end the conflict all by his lonesome.

Wonder if we'll get s reply?

They'll go back under their bridge.

[link:

Link to tweet

...just as the individual yelling "we are hamas" was not representative of the protest as a whole.

And I don't think MistakenLamb needs to ask anybody to explain what yelling "go back to Poland" to American Jews means. It's patently obvious.

...intimidation and verbal abuse was not the purpose of the protests, certain individuals within the protest crowd took that upon themselves.

There could be multiple purposes, and intimidation and verbal abuse could very well have been among them, at least for some of the protesters. We can't know how many of the protesters came for that purpose, either.

I'm trying not to automatically assume the worst, but it's extremely hard. Only one thing is clear to me, and that is that none of us should assume we know what they had in mind, much less defend them.

That's what the war is about, eradicating Hamas.

BTW, it is Hamas that is refusing to agree to a ceasefire. So why aren't protests directed at Hamas instead of at American Jewish college students?

...protests are probably not widely respected by them.

There is widespread doubt that netanyahu's reason for his destruction of all Gaza is only to eradicate hamas, and certainly doubt about the effectiveness of simply carpet-bombing one place to end a broadly reaching terrorist organization.

You seem to want to ignore what actually happened and replace it with some fantasy scenario that feels better.

I never said anyone should be condemned by anyone, and I never would.

That show up at a Trump rally
Of course you don’t.

I would not apply the same "rules" to a vastly different situation (that's just a quirk of mine I guess).