I can't, so I'll just kick it.

:kick:

How the hell did we get to the point that the MSM and the Beltway morons are allowed to go for 60 days never once mentioning JOBS?

My hope is that Obama is cleverly using this shock doctrine myth of "the cliff" to set up another stimulus. His first stimulus was remarkable, not just that it passed and did stimulate the economy, but that it moved the country significantly forward on many new industries. His people intentionally set up "the cliff. The confluence of these factors (Bush taxes expiring, the sequester, and the debt ceiling) were all carefully orchestrated by Obama to come at the same time, just as he is kicking off his second term. That is no accident. Let's see how he uses it.

I have a lot of confidence that Obama is going to score here. I have been listening to Republicans a lot the past 2 weeks (that's all the MSM seems to talk to) and those morons have no clue what is happening. They have no plan. They are just babbling about "the cliff". This is the perfect setup.

And the Republicans are right panicked -- and that is before their constituents see their taxes go up January 1. I fully expect that Obama will let the whole thing blow up on them, unless the Republicans come forward with a very sweet deal before the end of the year. I think the odds are very low. The best deal Obama will get is AFTER the cuts expire and AFTER the Pentagon loses their money. That is when Obama has maximum leverage.

Economics is tough to understand... so reading that ' "astroturf" propaganda groups in Washington' have set the agenda...

William Penn was a Quaker, and I happen to know that Mr. Pitt is no Quaker.
Understandable, though. Pitt is in western Penn, after all.

K&R

I posted something similar several days ago and was accused of wanting to let the unemployed and the children starve to death

if we go over the real fiscal cliff (that would be in March of next year) it would, yes, make all deficit go away BUT we would be plunged into a recession.

OTOT, there should be NO "grand bargain". It's just a really bad deal, and the Republicans had their chance years ago. That ship has sailed, and should be gone for good after last election.

Prof. Richard Wolff's Brecht Forum lecture for November. I just finished watching it. It's an hour and a half long, but well worth your time.

Link:

http://www.rdwolff.com/content/global-capitalism-monthly-update-discussion-november-2012

Prof. Wolff states that those most worried about the deficit are those who lend to the U.S. govt. That would be banks, insurance companies, large corporations, the wealthy, and of course, China. So you see whose interests are being served by all this hoop-la over the deficit. Certainly not us, the 99%.

He also dispenses with the "rich create jobs" argument.

I agree with Mr. Lind that Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid should not be cut. However, I do not think the system should be expanded.

First, there should be an effort to help workers get better pay and better jobs. Second, there needs to be an effort to prevent employers from benefitting from keeping workers out of 401(k) plans.

According to Ellen Schultz, in her book Retirement Heist, companies deduct contributions to employee benefits plans and the plans grow tax-deferred. However, to get this status employers have to prove their plans do not discriminate. Even if workers are not treated equally in benefits plans a company can be said to not discriminate. One of the best ways to be said not to discriminate is prevent the lowest paid workers from participating in the plans. If the lowest paid workers participate in benefits plans, but cannot contribute enough higher paid workers are not allowed to contribute the max amount. As a result, some companies just keep certain workers from participating in some benefits plans. The discrimination rules should be changed so that low income workers cannot be excluded from benefits plans.

...pinned on 401(k)s. No one. Not the least paid workers or the best paid. I have a defined benefit pension-- THAT should be the standard, not 401(k)s. Sheesh. Why would ANYONE want a 401(k) rather than a fully funded defined benefit pension? With health coverage? Survivors' benefits?

Screw 401(k)s. Join a union and get a real retirement plan!

I'm not worried. And my defined benefit pension is for life. That's the standard that every working person should demand. If tens of thousands of Californians can have such a retirement plan, every American should.

In the zero growth economy going forward, the estimated return on investment will not materialized. They are still using "smoothed" estimates that include data from the boom years in doing their math.

Like I said, I'm not worried. I'm retiring in five or six years, at 64-ish. Every worker in America should have the peace of mind that I have about retirement.

But really-- are you seriously arguing that a 401(k) is a better retirement vehicle than a defined benefit pension plan that's sufficiently funded to meet reasonably foreseeable obligations twenty or thirty years out? Seriously? I'll take my lifetime pension any day!

But cuts on everyone, amounting to a 17% increase for those at the bottom of the tax scale. The payroll tax expires, and a number of other provisions. Since I am in the 25% bracket, my income tax will increase to 28% and like everyone else my payroll taxes will go up 2%. But those who will fare the worst are poor Americans who dropped off the tax rolls after the Bush cuts. These are waitresses and Walmart workers, people barely getting by, who will have 17% of their paychecks disappear if no deal is reached. It bothers me that many here see this cliff or whatever you want to call it as about political brinkmanship. Why is that people here refuse to consider the impact of what they advocate on the nation's poorest Americans who already have trouble securing basic food and shelter?

We might make some headway. Give me any odds you want, and I'll never bet money on that outcome.

...is how one caller to Stephie referred to it.

half as much as the Dems and journos who are joining in. Two wars on the credit card combined with two tax cuts for the rich - there's your problem. Not social programs.

and I think it bares repeating that these current tax rates were supposed to have ended in 2010, the deficits that we are seeing are largely because they got extended. I Love Obama but I think it was a bad decision to extend these tax cuts in 2010 even though I know the thugs were holding the middle class rates hostage in their negotiations but we have to face facts the CBO reported that if we were to extend the current rates permanently it would add 3.3 trillion to the national debt in 10 years....

I will not support any cave in on the social safety nets, none no age raises, no benefit reductions, no increased costs.

Maybe it's time for a march on D.C.

What we are witnessing is the greatest transfer of wealth from the working poor and middle class to a select group of elites than at any time since the Robber Barons of the 1800's.

Stephanie Miller and her gang renamed it the Fiscal Cliff Clavin this morning, a bunch of blather like BS.

is it that every time I see Alan Simpson I want to punch his face?

I've learned to distrust that look because of him.

when we continue to allow them to define the narrative.

It is important that the Democratic lawmakers do not wobble at this point, all this talk of grand bargains is nothing by chicanery perpetrated by political sore losers. They are trying to cut benefits (they only know one tune and that is privitization) and refuse to raise taxes on the weatlhiest at a time when people are most vulnerable due to a slowly recovering economy.

The absolute truth about the 2012 election of President Obama is that it was a clear choice, America has spoken, there is little need to rehash these debates.

Start making the historical argument that tax rates have been much much higher in times of crisis, i.e., in 1942 the effective tax rate on people making 200K and up per year was 88 percent and guess what the rich didn't disappear, they didn't die off, they paid their fair share and many continued to gain even more weatlh.

Demand the weathly pay a fair share.

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1882687

I discuss this further:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021892552

...and the rest of them who keep repeating this?

without a "fiscal cliff" boogeyman? We are witnessing a grand deception that has been been scripted in advance, and is now being played out in DC and by much of the media. Likely it will even include some posters here on DU who will be at the ready to reassure folks that the cuts are not so bad considering the "dire circumstances" that forced them upon us. Transparent kabuki to some of us, but for many folks it is sufficient and believable. I have a sister in law that used to talk about Soap Operas she watched regularly as if they were stories about a neighbor or family member. Some have difficulty in separating reality from fiction, and that is the bedrock of their plan.

Can't say offhand but it has the ring of Luntz newspeak.

...remember, this "cliff/bluff" is a result of another "bargain" by obama and the dems.

...remember, this "cliff/bluff" is a result of another "bargain" by obama and the dems.

k&r

The issue is the ambiguity and unease created by the current lack of explanation of the numbers. I still can't make out what the hell is happening to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. I have to rely on he said, she said. I have seen the jumble of numbers a dozen times and I still don't feel good about them. Especially when we have a large Baby Boomer population that wants to live until they are 90 soaking up a lot of those funds.

Does anybody have a solid, reliable Nate Silverersque website that explains it all? And why don't Progressives have someone out there pounding away at a counter message? The Wall Streeters have great marketing skills, where are ours? Is Bill Clinton the only dubious asset we have?

... because they're all still trying to sell the right. People should just boycott them.

That is what the rich are born into. That is THEIR word.
Ours is a benefit.


Benefit.

We need to start countering the propaganda in social media.