IME don't use antisemitic tropes and you are not accused of antisemitism.

I'm not sure why. I would say "the American Military" and not think it was anti-American.

I support palestinians and even a two state solution.

I don't support hsmas, their army, or their supporters.

So to the extent that you can separate those, then yes, go for it.

Likewise, peaceful protest is absolutely fine. Blocking someone's path, and yelling they are an f'ing jew that should be raped and killed is not. Imho.

You are right at the line of antisemitism, tread carefully.

Last edited Thu May 2, 2024, 09:01 AM - Edit history (1)

And it's just my own personalal opinion.

But I'm not on the ground in any war zone, don't have family on the line, and don't have to worry about bullets or rockets tearing me apart.

I fully realize that would have a strong impact on my views.

Note: this reply was made after I misread the previous response. I was using an actual example of a propal protester yelling at a Jewish student to make a point. I misread the response or I would have answered differently.

I think I would take that as a threat. I fail to see why the posters opinion is "right at the line of antisemitism." I see why some people leave this place. Stop pushing hatred and the world will be a better place.

Making a point in a clever but rather devilish way.

The poster expressed a belief in a two-state solution. It was pointed out that is actually not the position of the Israeli people. Put that in the context of what is happening today, vis a vis criticism of Israel being equated with anti-semitism.

It's the only possibility as there wasn't anything remotely anti-semitic.

I could be wrong of course but that's my take.

And you completely misread my post.

That was something a propal protester actually yelled at a student trying to get to class.

I wasn't being antisemitic. I was pointing it out as unacceptable.

I believe your comparison is overly simplistic.

One could ask why the attention to Gaza and not Ukraine or the many other similarly affected people in other areas of the world.

We could be doing more to prevent hunger in the Horn of Africa, but the only Democrat I saw speaking about the issue prior to Oct 7th was Ilhan Omar. All the people coming out of the woodworks to point out that there is starvation in other parts of the world are just shedding crocodile tears.

We may make our voices known to our elected representatives. We may choose to support those who share our belief in worldwide aid to those affected as well. What I wouldn’t do is consider us to be crying crocodile tears.

And how do you know those protesters aren't doing the same thing as you?

I wonder.

Probably the reason for that is there is no one on here who argues that russia is in the right, or that the Ukrainians in any way deserve what's happening to them. If I post something against russia, I get no argument. If someone posts something critical of Israel, others will come down on them like a ton of bricks.

Yes, there is a complexity to the Israel-Gaza issue that is not present in Ukraine. I doubt that anyone here disagrees with the position that the hostages should be released AND the bombing stopped. When these issues are separated the fireworks start.

Just like the movie title, we need to address this issue from an everything, everywhere, all the time perspective. Posters and responders come at the issue from one of many perspectives. It’s a mess.

or just plain fascists who glorify hate and violence. Of course, there's lots of that in the Israel/Palestine discourse there too, on both sides of the issue, but as I said, Ukraine is my main issue of concern.

Jews see America as their homeland, but they also see Israel as their homeland.
There are millions of non-Jews who support this position.
Support for Israel among non-Jews is based on "making a right for a thousand years of wrongs".
US/Israel ties are solid and strong.
The US/Russia relations does not have a good history.

You are naturally going to see more pushback against working against or for a strong US ally.




Core Jewish population refers to those who consider themselves Jews to the exclusion of all else.
Connected Jewish population includes the core Jewish population and additionally those who say they are partly Jewish or that have Jewish background from at least one Jewish parent.
Enlarged Jewish population includes the Jewish connected population and those who say they have Jewish background but not a Jewish parent, and all non-Jews living in households with Jews.
Eligible Jewish population includes all those eligible for immigration to Israel under its Law of Return.
National official population is the Jewish population reported by a national source. Note that the "National" results may not be entirely accurate, as other sources may have conflicting accounts of Jewish populations in some countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#:~:text=Israel%20hosts%20the%20largest%20core%20Jewish%20population,by%20the%20United%20States%20with%206.3%20million.

I've lived a number of years with my mother, and for some of that time her SO who was Jewish by birth was also living here, so I was living in a household with a Jew. He didn't really identify much as Jewish, preferring that people think he was Irish, but I think he did have some strong feelings on Israel, which I never shared.

I've been extremely critical of Israel for a long time. Much more so than is evident from my posting history here.

I do also know that there are many people who ID as Jewish who are very critical of Israel, or even consider themselves anti Zionist.

In any event, this seems like it pushes the "dual loyalties" trope.

So anyway, not entirely certain what point this post is trying to make.

I'm Armenian. So our treatment was similar. I can identify. We haven't had a homeland since 400 AD. Now we have one that was established in 1991
But I grew up with "Armenians aren't a real people".

Jews are more diverse than Armenians and there are more of them. Support for Israel and support about Israel's actions is going to be diverse. Most American Jews do not want to abolish Israel. But having a homeland for people who have never had a homeland is important. I can identify with that. I also support the Palestinians to have their own state.

Since I'm a liberal and an atheist, and for many, that makes me "not a real American", and subject to God knows what under a Trump presidency.

I'm of mostly western and northern European ancestry, but mixed enough that I couldn't point to a single country as my "homeland". Realistically there's not a chance that I could ever emigrate to a European country.

Ukrainians, like Armenians, have only had a homeland since 1991, and may be on the verge of losing it once again. Israel has an advanced military and nuclear weapons, and seemingly unlimited support from the US. Ukrainians and Armenians have none of those. I don't see why their needs should matter less than those of Jews or Palestinians.

Still wondering if I count as part of the "Enlarged Jewish population".

a part of the "enlarged Jewish population."
However, being an atheist does not preclude one from being a Jew.
It's very complicated.

but are you comparing Israel to Russia?

than you see them posting about the war in Ukraine. I think because someone directly asked why that might be the case.

This is the post I was responding to.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18912151

Support those who want to de-escalate. Avoid those who want to promote increasing violent confrontation, including Intifada.

Don't assume because the damage caused looks looks like another that one side represents absolute evil. Indeed, Germany was more flattened after WW2 than Gaza had been, and the rate of death in the Battle of Berlin was significantly higher.

Don't start with the lie that Jews have no roots in the region or they are just a religion

Look for Palestinian critics of both Hamas and Israel to see how they frame their arguments.

Avoid intersectional shit-piling. The conflict is not entwined in global warming or gender equity or whatever. Trying to combine everything is just another way of say Jews control everything.

For that matter, don't assume Israeli money or Jewish money overwhelms public discourse. More money comes into US politics from Arab nations.

But strangely there have never been any pro-Ukraine protests even when the republicans were blocking the money they needed desperately to maintain their freedom and protect their cities and citizens. Strange , that.

Ukranian cities are no longer standing. Only the very largest, like bakmut, have any standing structures you could really recognize. That was a very large metropolitan city.

Smaller cities are just piles of rubble separated by roads. The roads are there, but the buildings are rubble. There isn't even shelter enough for foot soldiers to hide in.

Gaza has a lot of destruction, but is still largely intact. It has not suffered thousands of artillery shells a day pounding it like bakmut did.

I'm not minimizing the damage to gaza, it just doesn't compare to what we see along the zero line in Ukraine.

The only ones who stayed were the ones who were pretty adamant about doing so. That wasn't the case in Mariupol of course, hence, likely that tens of thousands were killed. But unlike in Gaza, there were no international organizations or independent journalists after about the 1st 3 weeks, so no one around to bear witness to just how horrific it was. Gaza likely gets more attention just because there are those on the ground who are able to bear witness.

I'd guess people also react to the perception that our own government is complicit in the attacks on Gaza, and that perception doesn't exist for Ukraine, though maybe it should, since we seem to be failing in the obligations we assumed when we essentially forced Ukraine to unilaterally disarm.

Gaza only 6 months.

But actively now for 2 years. Though not every city has been under constant bombardment for 2 years straight.

Some were leveled in well under 6 months. 24 hour artillery will do that.

Again, I'm not minimizing the level of damage gaza has seen, it just hasn't seen the bombardment of constant heavy artillery front line ukraine cities have.

They don't want to get there.

Urban warfare is brutal.

Yet Hamas keeps on turning down truce offers. Why? Because they do not give a shit about civilians. Never have.

Oversimplified but maybe a good start,

and is not concerned, even angry, I would be worried about their humanity.

Trust your heart, if it feels wrong to you then most likely it is.
Israel can and should be criticized for their war strategies just as any
county can be without that criticism being anti-semitic.

There are those in Israel who criticize the war policies and many students
here protesting are Jewish. This is not about racism, it is about human
rights and international law.

Without being accused of supporting genocide?

Will it be answered

The problem is the Hamassholes sucking all the air out of the room. You cannot have those people on your side and be taken seriously. They have to be outed and removed from all these protests if they want to be seen as legitimate.

I don’t doubt the sincerity of true anti-war protesters but they cannot and must not stand side by side with people who are virulently antisemitic, in favor of a sadistic, heinous terrorist organization, openly trying to install a fascist dictatorship HERE and calling for the death of America.

If those are your brethren, you are the same as them. There’s just no way around that.

We did it to the Iranians in the 1950s.
The Russians probably did it to us in 2016.
The cops did it, in a way, to anti-globalization activists and to BLM, if we expand the meaning of the word ‘fund’ to ‘catalyze’ or ‘polarize’.

Unfortunately any authentic march-in-the-street protests have been made more or less useless by the spread of such tactics.
Plus the media. Who did the broken window at Columbia? It played SO well on Fox yesterday. Almost tailor made for their audience.

Gaza also looks like Homs:



This is what Urban Warfare looks like everywhere.

That’s what I’ve learned not just online but IRL.
Next question?

It's humanitarian.

Last edited Wed May 1, 2024, 05:54 PM - Edit history (1)

How do comments like that help?

And more than one the past months. That is why that poster said that. As well as the many replies, including in this thread, of accusing people HERE of being antisemitic/pro Hamas.

The OP was asking if it was possible here to express sympathy towards Palestinian civilians without being labeled an anti-Semite, so he's apparently observed the closely related dynamic of people being so labeled in response to that expression of sympathy.

I can pretty much guarantee that if you posted "poor Gazans. They're suffering so much because of the actions of Hamas." nobody would accuse you of being an anti-Semite.

And what exactly is it that these comments are intended to "help"?

Especially since Jews or Israel aren't mentioned in that statement.

However, posts about "evil" Israel aren't helpful. One can disagree with something strongly
and not label it as "evil."

over the course of our history, and may very well do more in the future. I don't think that pointing that out makes me anti-American.

If someone says that they think what Israel is doing in Gaza is "evil", or that some Israelis are, either in the leadership or among the general population (say very aggressive, violent settlers), is that any different from a similar critique of America and Americans?

Like what do you say about someone like Smotrich? Highly placed in the Israeli government, and appears to many to be calling for outright genocide of Palestinians.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2024-04-30/ty-article-opinion/smotrich-must-pay-the-price-for-his-repeated-calls-for-genocide-of-palestinians/0000018f-3084-d0b5-a59f-31c5ca320000

Is Israel unique in that it must never be called out, even if it appears to many be doing some really awful things? Are Israelis unique among humanity in somehow being incapable of evil?

Likud stinks, Netanyahu is a throw back.
Israel can certainly be called out on awful actions.

What would you suggest Israel do considering that Hamas has the eradication of Israel and all Jews in its charter and have promised more attacks like 10//7?

There are protests in Israel against the current administration. If only Gazans would form a coalition with liberal Israelis to find solutions to problems that have existed for decades - but that can't happen as long as Hamas is in power and the right wing in Israel has support. That can't happen as long as people have retribution in their hearts. I see more Israelis calling for peace than I do Palestinians. A cease fire will work as long as BOTH sides honor it. So far Hamas has broken every cease fire. Israel would be foolish to accept a unilateral cease fire.

It's been said ad nauseam that if only would return the hostages (dead and alive) and surrender, that Israel would stand down and the rebuilding of Gaza could begin.

As far as preventing attacks like 10/7, what they should have done to prevent that attack. They got ample warning from many sources, both external and from their own intelligence. Hamas had been observed practicing for the attack over the previous year. Why were they doing nothing to maintain basic security in that area? Many Israelis are asking the same question. It seems like the IDF were mostly preoccupied with protecting West Bank settlers involved in attacking and harassing Palestinians there, and they somehow thought that security would take care of itself through fencing and automated systems? To prevent future similar attacks, I would start with maintaining much stronger security in the area surrounding Gaza.

I'm well aware of what Hamas says it wants to do, but there's a difference between wanting something and having the actual capacity to carry it out. Even if Hamas was completely eradicated (probably impossible) wouldn't there continue to be many in Gaza who feel the same way, simply based on what they've been through at the hands of Israel (and this is the worst, but far from only, major Israeli attack on Gaza in relatively recent history).

I agree that Israel had no choice but to respond to 10/7. I just wonder if it couldn't have been done with a little more finesse and attention to preventing so much collateral damage. Probably more boots on the ground and less bombing.

I don't think Hamas wants peace. I think that they're perfectly happy to sacrifice unlimited numbers of civilians while letting Israel destroy what's left of its global reputation.

Doesn’t change the fact that a lot of the rhetoric that goes along with it is indeed anti-Semitic.

I'm with her.

I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart. Anne Frank

Anne Frank was tragically an idealistic teenager who was slaughtered by
those with no good in their heart, those who only believe in dominance
and violence to control others.. Putin and Trump quickly come to mind
as do Sinwar and Smotrich.

That is why the Rule Of Law, International laws and civil rights
matter to the rest protect us from these predators.

Smotrich is a vocal and repulsive voice necessary to retain a coalition government who effectively has no power beyond his ranting to influence Israeli action.

Sinwar is a leader with singular power on the ground in Gaza and his finger in a trigger.

To equate them is like suggesting Biden and MTG have a similar influence on American policy.

Bibi is an asshole who using the assault in Gaza to stay in power. There have been major protests in Israel of Bibi's policies. Many American Jews and Israelis have been and will continue to attack Bibi.

Link to tweet

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who believe Americans should back Israel no matter what they do or get called anti Semitic

Ignoring the massive coordinated terrorist attack that pre-dated Israel's response is another thing. The "protests" going on like to either (1) ignore what Hamas did or (2) justify what Hamas did by claiming that Israel has no right to exist. Both are losing arguments and, quite frankly, are merely firming the vast majority of Americans' support for Israel.

all of us who are sympathetic with Palestinians in Gaza believe any of those things you mention

No one is endorsing Hamas or terrorism within my social network. It’s universally condemned. However, there’s much more discussion and awareness of Palestinian daily life and cultural history. Contrary to what some believe, this doesn’t make them anti-semites or anti-Israel.

Everything has changed. Nothing is the same. I haven’t seen anything like it since the 80s apartheid critique (as far as frequently discussed topics goes).

No one here, unless they are Library Girl or similar, is Pro Hamas, or pro the massacre in October. And, frankly, I am sick and tired of that being comingled.

We'll wait.

Of course it's possible.

Too bad so many "protesters" are guilty of it. when they harass and attack, at times Violently , Jewish Students, People, and Smear Jewish Businesses.

And, what's it called when this is denied?

.... is not reasonable IMO. Hamas, the official government of Gaza, launched the Oct 7 attacks. Although Gaza is not a formal state, this was tanamount to a declaration of war. If you want the killing in Gaza to stop, I recommend calling for Hamas to surrender.

...but if you are not being anti-semitic, just ignore the accusations.

Thos false accusations are all part of the effort to diminish support for the innocent, non-hamas Gaza civilians that you care about, so don't let the anti-Palestine crowd get to you.

That's just as disingenuous as people jumping to call posters antisemitic.
I haven't seen and "anti-Palestine" crowd here.

on edit: I left this on my computer without posting - it's been over an hour and a half
gonna post anyway

...when they ARE antisemitic is appropriate and the right thing to do.

I have seen plenty of posts calling all Palestinians hamas supporters and plenty of posts stating that the genocide is justified.

...

A pox on both their houses...

Joe signing checks to him

They certainly aren’t anti-Semitic

A hell of a lot more concerned about them than Hamas.

Support peace for both sides.

Hamas wants to do the same as Trump's republicans... kill more Jews.

But, there seems to be many on here that don't get that concept. They throw out that word when you criticize the government of Israel and netenyahu. And tgen they wonder why their posts get reported on. You can't just call someone antisemitic for wanting peace in the Middle East and an end to the suffering of innocent people.

So if you see a post like that you should alert on it.

some people (from all racial and religious backgrounds) are in a state of mind where they view any support for innocent Palestinians in Gaza as picking a side (hamas) and disregarding what happened on October 7. It couldn't be further from the truth, but I can't change the way people feel inside. I know that a lot of people are in a lot of emotional pain over what happened, especially people who were personally affected. It's one thing to observe a tragedy from afar, but when it's one of your loved ones killed or in harm's way, that changes everything. I'm angry, disgusted and saddened by what happened, but I did not lose anyone, and our country did not fund or enable hamas, so it decreases the extent of my emotional involvement to a certain degree.

The reason why I am similarly angry, disgusted and saddened by what's happening to Palestinians in Gaza is because now MY country, my taxes, my party's president, my identity as an American---all of those things are now associated with funding the slaughter and starvation of tens of thousands of women and children. I fully understand that some people might be in a "fuck it, kill them all" state of mind, but for those of us who are not, it is a little traumatic to be associated with atrocities. That's the difference. The US did not fund or enable hamas. Bibi did. And now everytime we turn around, hundreds more are dead, including humanitarian workers. And the excuses being provided are unacceptable. I don't think bibi respects President Biden at all and I'm offended by that as well.

Sorry, I got way off topic but to get back to the point and expand it a little: Navigating a discussion without being called anti-Semitic or Islamophobic is dependent upon where the participants of the discussion are at emotionally. If a participant of the discussion is at the "fuck it, kill them all" stage, then no, because that person is driven by emotions and not able to have a rational, fact based discussion.

but I’ll remain vocal

this site does not allow even the slightest difference of opinion. I'm not sure what happened here, but this site has completely changed from even a few years ago.

But I do think you can condemn the civilian death toll in Gaza without being anti-Semitic.

Hamas are brutal terrorists. October 7th was an unjustified and brutal terrorist attack. But blocking aid to Gaza, causing a famine, and bombing civilians are not proportional responses and the US shouldn't be giving arms to Israel if that's how they're going to use them. It's just sowing the seeds for September 11th, Part 2 and not moving anything closer to a resolution.

...Me? Not with a ten-foot pole!

Donald Trump has a message for voters who disapprove of President Joe Biden’s Israel/Gaza policy from the left: The Republican intends to be vastly worse.

Link to tweet

I hate to see what TFG thinks is the "right" religion

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are the ones who are accusing EVERYONE of antisemitism who voices concern over Gazans.

I think America should be more critical of the devastation and suffering in Gaza. I'm certainly not anti-Semitic.
When you (Israel) act like a terrorist, you lose moral authority, support from allies, and provoke anger and retaliation. There is no gain from this level over over-reaction.