Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
Thu Feb 7, 2013, 04:03 AM Feb 2013

Enemies of the state: Questions about the drone policy

The just-leaked "drone white paper" conclusively proves that the Obama administration has claimed the power to secretly declare a US citizen to be an imminent terrorist threat and to have that citizen killed if it is too inconvenient to apprehend him, all without review by any other branch of government. It is not necessary to seek an indictment in criminal court, to lay out the evidence against such a person in front of a judge, to warn the citizen beforehand or give him an opportunity to surrender, or to justify such an action to the public even after having the citizen killed.

On the face of it, this is an extraordinary assertion: it gives the executive the power of life and death over its citizens simply by declaring them enemies of the state. It is the kind of policy that, if enacted under the Bush administration, would almost certainly have caused universal condemnation among those identifying as Democrats and liberals. Now, however, the reaction among us is mixed-- many people are horrified, but many seem to accept it and defend it. To those who support the administration's position, I ask the following questions:

1. One argument I frequently hear is that by joining Al Qaeda or some other terrorist group, a citizen has become an enemy combatant and has no more rights than, say, a German soldier in World War II. This argument frustrates me to no end, because it completely sidesteps the main issue: How do we know that somebody on the kill list is actually a terrorist? The whole point of disagreement is that in a free and democratic society, nobody can be declared guilty simply by executive assertion.

2. A citizen arrested at home is entitled to know the charges against him, to see the evidence and cross-examine the witnesses, and to have jury of his peers decide his fate. The Obama administration asserts now that none of this is necessary-- not only does the citizen not have any of the rights of the accused, he doesn't even have to be formally accused or indicted. A citizen may never know he is considered a terrorist before he is killed by his own government. Why has the entire process of judicial review been removed? There are provisions for secret trials and secret evidence in our legal system. Why can't even a minimal amount of outside review be put into the process.

3. The drone white paper describes targeting those citizens posing "an imminent threat" against the United States. It then goes on to say that "the condition that an operational leader present an 'imminent' threat of violent attack does not require clear evidence that a specific attack will take place in the immediate future." (slightly edited to shorten the text without changing the meaning; see full text here). Isn't it flatly contradictory to say that an "imminent" threat does not have to be in the "immediate future"? If a threat is indeed not in the immediate future, isn't there time to invoke due process?

4. The administration does not put any geographic limitations on its power to kill its own citizens, other than to say that it will do so only when capture is not feasible, though it then very much weakens the conditions for infeasibility. Nor, as far as I can tell, does it put any time limitation on its claimed powers. Is there any limit in time and space to the executive's power of extrajudicial killing? Are you comfortable with giving the executive branch this power indefinitely?

5. Would you be comfortable with future presidents, including Republicans, having this power? Would you trust foreign leaders to implement similar policies and to carry out extrajudicial killings of their citizens in the United States?

Finally, something that bothers me a great deal:

When George W. Bush was president, he argued that as a wartime president, he had the right to have American citizens held indefinitely without charge. He legitimized the waterboarding of detainees and refusal to follow the Geneva Conventions with regard to people he considered enemy combatants. While all this was happening, Republicans supported Bush's policies while Democrats criticized them. Now that similar policies are being carried out by the Obama administration, Republicans are still supporting them and many Democrats are supporting them as well. What does it say when it is the Republicans who are consistent (though in my opinion, wrong) in their principles and we change them depending on who the president is?

4 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Enemies of the state: Questions about the drone policy (Original Post) BlueCheese Feb 2013 OP
The President will take flak from whatever decision he makes cbrer Feb 2013 #1
I think you missed my point. BlueCheese Feb 2013 #2
Actually I understood that, cbrer Feb 2013 #3
Thanks for your reply. BlueCheese Feb 2013 #4
 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
1. The President will take flak from whatever decision he makes
Thu Feb 7, 2013, 04:09 AM
Feb 2013

As far as I'm concerned, decisions that mean the least American lives lost for a successful mission is a sound one.

ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. If he has to run each hit through committee we won't be killing many enemies.

We may debate necessity, efficacy, legality, justifiability, but he's in the hot seat. IMHO President Obama made the right call.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
2. I think you missed my point.
Thu Feb 7, 2013, 04:15 AM
Feb 2013

For me, the key question is, how can we be so sure someone is an enemy? Sure, if everyone knows without doubt that Mr. X is an enemy, then maybe it's okay to have him killed. But in a democratic society, there's a process for declaring someone is an enemy. Are you willing to give the president--any president -- the power to declare that someone is an enemy and to have that person killed, without presenting evidence?

To take an extreme example, what if Obama thought that you were an enemy? (Mistaken identity, or something like that.) Could he have you killed without showing the evidence to judge, or to you?

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
3. Actually I understood that,
Thu Feb 7, 2013, 04:54 AM
Feb 2013

But may have made a gross assumption. Extreme examples abound...

Once military technology grew to include firearms, artillery, and armor being "sure" about a person's status became a question of good intel. Which anyone who's been in combat can tell you, may or may not be current, or accurate, or without agenda, or a mix of friendly/hostile... You get the picture.

Whomever has been in a war (I'm currently in my third), will tell you that the phrase "War is Hell" actually bears little relevance to the fear, desolation, anger, extreme violence, and horror that is the reality. So being sure about some targets sometimes becomes a matter of "kill that bastard that I believe is a threat".

On a local level, your platoon leader calls in an air strike. On a macro level, it means that people that we've granted extreme decision making capability, will really screw the pooch sometimes. On purpose? By accident? Atrocity? Good defense?

Such is war. Fuck war.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Enemies of the state: Que...