However, since he/she/it doesn't exist, they ultimately bother humans the most, unless they belong to the Dominionist / Pave The Earth sect.

I'm a solid Agnostic. I don't know enough.

There's Something, but damned if I know What or even if I'd know It when I see It or hear It.

This sums it for me, too, and you did it very nicely.

Thank you.

If she did they would have already been besmote or turned into salt, or whatever other corrective measure she uses.

that the tweet came from a genuine wingnut.

It's a transcription error at most, but in fact it is not even an exact quote. It's a paraphrase of an interview Huckabee gave on Faux News.

So the misspelling is only a mark of authenticity of the lack of education in the country, where Republicans try to strangle public schools, demonize teachers, pump for-profit charter school scams, and boost home schooling by semi-literate evangelicals.

...regularly. But she was a realist. I stayed with her the last two years of her life. And she told me that all they did in the Old Testament was go from one war to another. She was totally against all war. She prayed every meal for God to please take care of our troops and to bring them home from Iraq as soon as possible. And what I got the biggest kick about was when her minister would come to visit her. Her minister was all pro-war...Onward Christian Soldiers, a modern day crusader. I would go off into another room and listen to their conversation. And the time would come to talk about the war. She really gave it to him about his advocacy for the war. She would have turned him over her knee if she could have and given him a good paddling. (she was his Sunday School teacher when he was a little boy and taught him the 10 commandments herself!) Mom was a Christian, to the nth degree. One thing she was so good at was turning the other cheek. Someone could run over her with a truck on purpose and she would get up and say she was sorry they were having a bad day. She was a doormat. She was a Saint, if there ever was one. She would have given her life for her little community. She volunteered, taught at after-school programs, summer vacation Bible Schools, played the piano or organ every Sunday and at every wedding, funeral, etc., etc. But, she drew the line at killing. We need to remember that not all Christians are the same. Oh, yeah, she was pro-choice too!

I'm not religious myself, but some of the best people in my life are-- including my oldest daughter.

Your Mom sounds like she was a wonderful person

... a good old bird. I miss her so much. But she is here...inside of me somewhere, running around all through the veins of my body... since I have half her genes.

the separation of church and state thing?

At the risk of bringing a beat down upon myself; the bill of rights doesn't use the phrase 'separation of church and state'.

It also doesn't grant us 'freedom from religion', but that's what I believe. I especially think we should have freedom from religion in our schools.

exactly say that but it does imply that our government should not be favoring any religion over another. I don't know when the christians got so much control over our laws but they need to be pushed back into a basket the same size as all the other baskets that contain all the other religions... so to speak. i don't subscribe to any organized religion and I don't want any of them to foist their ideology on me to inhibit me against my will by insiting, by law, that everyone else adhere to their religious beliefs.

I remember when I was growing up that if someone confronted anyone about belief in god, if they didn't loudly proclaim that they were a practicing believer in one of two accepted versions of religion based on some christianity theme, they were instantly ostracized and shunned until they moved away or lashed out which got them into jail or something. Of course that just gave the christians license to try and "save" them afterward.

We need to remove all religiousness out of government and schools, you can practice what you want in your own home but keep it in your pocket when out in public, period. that's how I interpret it and that's is most fair way I can see it being put to use.

Some guy saying that we need to allow religion into the government. The things that all religions have in common.

I haven't addressed him on it, but I can't help but wonder how he would feel about his teenage daughter being taught about Kolob and the Mormon angels, or the Muslim prophets; by devout followers.

There are too many differences in the various faiths to allow any kind of religious teaching in school (except for historical). This nation was founded on religious tolerance and a separation of church and state. That's one of the reasons that we are taught in every grade (I swear) that the pilgrims travelled here from Europe in 1620 to escape religious persecution.

I guess a lot of people just think that's why we celebrate thanksgiving. The Europeans took their religious persecution pretty damn serious; just ask St. Thomas More.

get the kind of schooling some of us did. And I agree with you about what parts of what religions should be taught in school. On the other hand, the essence of many religions are the same and if those concepts were taught without the religious labels, I would be okay with that.

I spent most of my childhood in many schools in New England before, during and after the civil rights movement. There was prayer in schools for the first few grades and it then became a moment of silence, which I was okay with because I didn't want to pray in school. But beyond that, religion was pretty much not a topic for discussion nor was it a subject for study unless you went to the catholic school across the street (in most towns I lived in). The "separation" concept was honored and the basic concepts that might have been traced back to any religion were presented as citizenship instead. The word "god" only appeared in the pledge of allegiance in the morning and that was that.

It was family who bludgeoned you with their issues on religion and members of the church you were supposed to belong to but it wasn't something you were exposed to in public school. And I learned my reading and writing skills then which made life less difficult for me when I entered college in my thirties with only a ninth grade education prior. And it is that grade school experience that I compare later education systems to... It wasn't perfect and I was not a model student and had been bullied quite a bit but what i took away from all that, education-wise, is far more valuable than my educators may have imagined.

So I can see teaching the concepts of respect and "the golden rule" as we were taught without religious affiliations and associated with those that went along with civic responsibility and tolerance. It's what should still be a part of the curricula in every school but, sadly, it isn't anymore. Not sure when that part faded away but it needs to be dug up, dusted off and put to good use so we can be a nation of responsible citizens rather than insult hurling toads looking for some cheap, instant gratification that reinforces bad behavior toward others that festers into really bad stuff as time goes on.

...and though there are many things that are against planning rules; very often, as long as nobody is complaining - it isn't a problem.

That's kind of the way it is with religion in school. I had a high school teacher that told us that she could teach about the bible as long as we were reading it as a work of literature. I expect that even in that case; if parents complained it would be put to an end. We prayed before each football game; I wasn't religious, but they allowed those who did not want to participate an opportunity to 'not participate' without prejudice. I just bowed my head with the rest and another student led the prayer.

I think that's the way it should be; sure, we have the rule of law and we should try to observe the law, but sometimes it's ok just to let things go even though it might be against the rules as long as it isn't really hurting anything.

The Ten Commandments were on my courthouse lawn; I don't have any problem with it, I'm not gonna complain. However, when people do complain (and they have a right to complain) it is wrong to insist that it remain there; because then the powers that be know that they are offending someone, and they just don't care.

That's the line that we walk and as long as we aren't trying to hurt anyone; then we aren't hurting anyone. IMHO

at the expense of the least among us.

*

But we shouldn't make light of it. I'm just so surprised. Church was simply the most boring place on earth when I was growing up. I've heard about some church shootings but I would never have placed the number at more than half a dozen or so.

In some places church is the only place people gather so if you want to catch up with the guy sleeping with your wife....

Maybe church wasn't as boring as I thought. If only I'd been old and seasoned enough to know what to look for.

It's a status thing.

From there it's off to the golf course.

Also to be seen.

according to this blog:

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2012/11/pastors-reevaluate-security-after-church-shootings.html

But there was at least one church shooting in December, in rural Pennsylvania, where a woman was shot as she was putting up Christmas decorations.

If we can remove God from anything or anywhere, he must not be as powerful as I was taught when I was a churchgoer. Of course, seeing as how he was not born in America maybe the Republican citizenship policies have denied him admission.

They can't be told to do so by school employees, and they don't get to disrupt class with it, but students are permitted to pray in school if they want to.

the concept of the separation of Church and State. And by the looks of that ad, looks like they mix up the 1st and 2nd amendments. They will not take responsibility for their mixed up screwed up beliefs. Ask them what reading comprehension is and watch their eyes cross. Oh, yeah, and they are against education and worship ignorance.

..who claim that "God is on their side" yet don't practice the creed of any faith I know of. Maybe the Faith of Hypocrisy (TM).

These people do not follow Christianity, but some sort of militaristic religion.

...we'll have fewer church shootings?

Works for me!

At least not in my day (early 70's through early/mid 80's) or my daughter's... So my question is, did I miss something, was this before my time, or is this just another right wing BS meme?

I'm pretty sure it's the latter, so why are these fundies saying that God has been "removed" if he/she was never in attendance (so to speak) in the first place?

anything you described in your linked post. Unless the young lady reciting the Lord's Prayer had done it at the teacher's prompting, which doesn't appear to be the case... please correct me if I am wrong. With the exception of the Lord's Prayer, my own public school experience was pretty much the same as yours, I think. We too were tolerant and respectful of other people's faiths. It was just that religion, any religion was not formally taught. For that, there are churches, homeschooling and/or private school options.

Your mentioning of the USSC ruling in that link jogged my memory of some PBS program I had forgotten about regarding the McCollum vs Board of Education case, which is what I think you are referring to. Anyway, my point is that I stand corrected, but I really don't think we disagree on much from what I got out of your linked post.

Yes, there had been some type of religious instruction in public schools up until the ruling. For the record, I agree with the USSC on this, not because religious classes (of any faith) would have offended me, but because I see it as a slippery slope that potentially could have been very costly to taxpayers. Why? Because prior to the USSC ruling, it would have been a valid request IMO, for people of other faiths to insist upon their religion being taught too. Apparently no one had, but that scenario hypothetically could have happened, and legally speaking, I think they probably could (and should) have prevailed -prior to the ruling. Btw, I'm usually not a fan of 'the slippery slope' argument, but I think it truly applies here.

However, despite what fundies like Huckabee say, I don't think the 50+ year old USSC ruling has changed things a whole lot. The ruling just serves to make faith in public schools a more private matter. Students can still pray if they wish, and schools can even accommodate that by arranging for 'a moment of silence' type thing, if that is what parents and students want. As someone downthread pointed out, (and I don't disagree with) God can be anywhere people want him to be.

The only difference was we left that out. We adopted, without fanfare or even a mention, the Moment of Silence. There were also no complaint at my Baptist Church, no one word was said about it.

At that time we also had Blue Laws, which closed the very large mall nearby on Sundays and seen as a boon to Labor, to allow those workers a day of rest. There were no voices said against Labor at that time in the public square, either. Nor discourses on Communism except in reference to the Russians or Chinese, or Socialism or Capitalism, which too many religions seem to now refer to as part of Christianity....

When the Blue Laws were given up by the city council, nothing was said, either. That was political business, not church.
Religion was a private matter and all were treated equally, even though the majority were Protestants in my region. The only rivalry was with the Catholics, but that was private, also, not fodder for politicans. The separation of church and state were not argued at all. We knew Muslims and Jews and didn't feel that there was anything weird about either religion, no fighting on that.

As far as the 'prayer' leaving the school, we behaved the same as before, some looking down to think with their eyes closed and others peeking. The girl who played the piano left that out, but still played America the Beautiful for us. She did not complain.

There was no politican or any preacher whining about it in public. The state was public and the church was private. This change has been brought about by RW politicans and demagogues and this country is being stupified by it.

I was hoping for reversal of this insanity but with so much privatization and charter schools I am not hopeful. I went to schools built by the WPA and they were works of art. It was considered normal in those days and public good. I consider what the kids are going through in some areas to be anti-democratic and pro-theocracy and the media built it.

I hate to break it to him but God is where ever he/she wants.

Third, prayer has never been removed from schools. Why I remember sitting in third period English praying like hell that old lady McNamee would go horse. I'd be lying if I said I didnt understand why God ignored me.

We removed common sense from political discourse... Look at where NJ's uncontested Democratic nominee for governor keeps her money...

http://signon.org/sign/barbara-buono-move-your

There was a point, in 2008, when Huckabilly was favored to be the POTUS nominee.

"Mainstream" Republicans aren't. Teabaggers are just plain insane.

The right believes:

1) Our teachers are incompetent
2) Public education is completely broken
3) Liberals have destroy the moral fabric of America

But, let's arm all our teachers and have them teach morality and religion to our children (rather than parents and the clergy).

Oh. Ok.

That would be the explanation according to the right wing and anti-secularists.

K&R.

firmly agnostic and heading back to atheism the older I get (now aged 48), whenever politicians or anyone says anything like "God is not in school", i always thought if you really believed in God, wouldn't he be everywhere in everything all the time? Where exactly does he go? I don't know how they can have this outlook. If you believe in God as the creator, he is at school all the time.

It's the same mentality when someone says God was behind the winning sports team. Why would God favor either side if he made both of them?

I started kindergarten in Iowa, in 1952. I don't remember reciting or being led in prayer. We did say the Pledge of Alligiance (with God included). That was it. Then we went on to learn about Evolution.

I attended church until late in High School when I turned slowly to Agnosticism, where I stayed for 30+ years before returning to church.

I started drinking just prior to turning 21. I was an instant drunk. After 15 years of that, I became an alcoholic and started going to meetings. Our AA meetings begin with the Serenity Prayer and ends with The Lords Prayer. Many if not most folks walking into their 1st AA meeting are Agnostic or Atheist. One of the symtoms of Alcoholism is thinking you are the center of the Universe.

While not a Christian at the time, I listened carefully to those prayers and recited them with the other AAs in the meetings. Those prayers helped me and others to focus on something outside ourselves, be it God, family, nature, whatever. God is mentioned often in AA literature and the 12 steps. For Agnostics and Atheists wanting only to get sober, these mentions and the spoken prayers serve simply to focus our thougthts on something outside ourselves and more important that ourselves.

I've been to hundreds of AA meetings and never heard one person suggest that we do away with the prayers and remove God from the literature.

In reading thru this thread, I began to think that perhaps we should return to at least a moment of silence at the beginning of the school day. Some non-religious inspiring statement or poem can be read to end the moment of silence. During the moment of silence, those who believe can start their day with a silent prayer. I guess I'm just trying to find a middle way, something that serves the same end as prayer without naming a God or any religion.

I don't want to open the flood gates to bring Huckabee's God back into the schools but I do value a time of centering ourselves on some thought outside of ourselves for a minute. If done correctly, I would think only the disciples of Ayn Rand would protest. If we sneak this moment of silence back into our schools, maybe we can get Darwin back in there too.

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