If I were in LA I wouldn't come within 5 blocks of any LAPD trying to "find" him, knowingly, considering the photos of that truck that looked nothing like his but they still thought was his. I'd be terrified of getting shot while helping.

was saying concerning the LAPD was right but killing three people justifies nothing. Maybe what good in his mind the truth will come out.

a court of law, mainstream media pundits notwithstanding. And LAPD LIE, so it is possible he is actually innocent. I will accept the truth as it is revealed. And to clarify, I have not read any mainstream media reports on the deaths.

One thing which is certain is that LAPD wish him dead and shall not hesitate to bring about that condition, as evidenced by continuing potentially deadly assaults upon citizens whom they somehow believe to be him.

Otherwise, everyone that ever learned "2+2=4" from him would have to disregard what he taught them.

I cannot understand people who are completely uninterested in the motives of someone like Dorner, because of what he's done. It *does* matter why he is doing what he's doing. My interest in understanding it is in NO WAY demonstrating sympathy or condoning his actions, and it is infuriating when people conflate the two.

We have been told nothing about that, but it doesn't stop many here from going on a knee-jerk rant about legal gun ownership.

Maybe I'm just weird and quirky that way.

It explains why people explode like Dorner did. Of course he is wrong, but he probably sincerely feels that he told the truth and lost everything he hoped for because of it.

I feel sorrier for his victims than for him, but I also have compassion for him.

If he knocks on my door, I will call the LAPD. But I am not capable of catching such a person and will stay home and out of everyone's way today.

I will say that the crime rate in LA seems to have decreased although not in all places. It flares up again and again here and there.

The police have a very, very difficult job. Police brutality is, I suspect but don't know, the product of the terrible stress that comes from doing a job in which fear walks with you every step every day. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a police officer.

This is a tragic human situation.

But killing unarmed people who pose no immediate danger to you is very, very wrong. Kicking an unarmed person who is under arrest is also not right, but it isn't as wrong as killing. We can't have a decent society for our children with so much violence.

human beings and not like convicted felons in need of a good ass whupping.

If I treated everyone I met like they were pond scum, I might feel like I have to watch my back constantly, too.

I live here and deal with them often enough that I know to avoid them. They do NOTHING to help crime victims. They treat all citizens like we are already guilty.

I wish I could buy you a heart, that post deserves one.

year in a while that I've been able to buy any to give away.

I used to live across the street from an LAPD Narcotics Officer. If I heard it once I heard it a million times, we the general public were all criminals who just hadn't been caught yet. He had an us against them mentality, the police being the us and the general public being the them.

The stories he would tell would make you sick. I was friends with his wife, who was emotionally and physically abused by this man. She finally escaped him after years of abuse. The sad thing about this is during my friendship with her, I realized he was the rule not the exception in regards to the LAPD.

It's only with understanding that we might be able to tackle this growing problem. I'm afraid we don't have the courage to examine the real reasons, we don't want to know because it would cause us to reevaluate an economic and political system that puts profit over people.

Speculation that was discouraged by a significant number of DUers.

Lanza has been quite thoroughly discussed on DU, to the point there's nothing more to say until more facts are known.

And it doesn't stop there either. it's like they're taking great umbrage
that ANYONE dare to be the slightest bit curious.

rather odd if you ask me.

I don't think murdering people is an effective way to get a platform for one's grievances, either. It's the act of a very disturbed individual--one who perhaps might be disturbed in his perceptions, too.

But all that is irrelevant. He killed people. Innocent people. It's not the way to make people listen to one's case. It is a way to commit suicide by cop, though.

If I had to guess, I'd say that all this "reopen investigation" stuff is an attempt to get the guy to pop his head up, either in person or online, so he can be tracked and apprehended or killed.

one of these precious young one's father.

The murdered young couple were a part of my community. They had everything ahead of them.

If he was the one that killed them then I have no pity for dorner. He needs to go to trial and stand for their murder.


Tikki

to him, the only way to get the attention of the masses. It is true that such drastic measures are pretty much what is demanded by our self aggrandizing collective. Would there have been any news stories about his issues or would there be any catalyst for change otherwise? This is his manner of gaining the attention of the distracted public about something that is not only an issue of major import to him... it is one for all of us that we seem quite willing to keep hidden under the table so we can't see it to address it. The focus on what he has done to get us to see the problems are horrendous but we the sheeple seem to demand that in order to pay enough attention to condemn him, and just maybe take a look under the covers to discover the dead horse's head in his bed while we're at it.

And just for balance, what makes those shooting victims whom he is alleged to have killed any more innocent than the innocent people we are killing every day in our illegal war(s) by whatever technical means? We are a society who is the bringer of death by improper rationale everywhere so...

I don't support or condone his methods but I am willing to take a look at what he is trying to direct us to before I start hurling condemnations about his alleged narcissism or whatever. Obviously this guy was pushed to the edge of reason and wants the people to see that it may be systemic in nature and that it happens to too many of us with unfettered regularity. That's what I am getting from all of this. He is already winning the battle by exposing the ineptitude of the LAPD by scaring them into shooting at anything randomly and settling up after the fact.

After all, the taxpayers paid to train him to be a killer both at LAPD and in the military. Perhaps he had a morality that wasn't favored by the killing machine that we call our national security network and he is pointing that out in kind. Just maybe.

He murdered the beloved daughter of the guy he felt didn't "defend" him "good enough."

Come on. The guy is off the page. The balance of his mind is disturbed. His judgment is awry, and he's a killer.

And I would really like to know this guy's USN career trajectory. Was he a washout from flight school? Did he take the "Security officer's course?" What?

USN isn't in the business of training "killers," with the profound exception of the SEALS. And that guy looks a bit beefy to be a SEAL.

I think your second paragraph is sick--and not sick in the "cool kids" way, but sick in the "that's fucked up" way. To even attempt to quantify "innocence" is a bridge too far for me.

Once you start murdering people in order to force people to read a frigging manifesto, you have lost the high ground. You're a spree killer. A murderer.

Little children learn, early on, that two wrongs don't make a right. I'm amazed that there are adults on the internet who have trouble with that lesson, frankly.

Flame on as you wish.

Peace.

You don't kill an innocent young lady because you think her father didn't do an adequate job of speaking up for you. That's just not on.

I was trying to identify a possible rationale while pointing out a social flaw that may have led him to think his methodology was going to work for him. Not sure you got that point but at any rate, it is what it is and it isn't a good thing no matter how you slice it. If he hadn't gone and killed those people, I might have some sympathy for him... but I don't... all the same, I try to avoid condemnation in most cases. The big exception to that is politicians and their overlord$.

That's a tactic employed by someone who has a problem with rational thinking. Like Andrew Cunanan, for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cunanan

what you know about mental health and mental illness. I have some first hand knowledge of some pretty intense mentally ill individuals as I have had to care for a couple with serious problems and have been acquainted with numerous others. I see that there is a lack of understanding in the report of Cunanan about a number of mental illnesses and the onset of some of these. Cunanan started showing symptoms of a few specific types of mental illness that seem to appear in one's late teen years, as seems to have maybe been the case with that individual. I think there;s something else going on with Dornen and I don't dare speculate beyond that as there aren't enough chunks of evidence to make such a call.

Whatever it is, he's not well or right in the head but other than that, nobody can really say. If he wanted o make a large public statement, I wish he would have chosen a different method.

That's all I have to say about it.

have been in and out of institutionalized settings for the better part of their lives; I'm not going to go so far as to "Frist" this guy, but I'm not blind, I am sentient, and it is readily apparent from the guy's behavior that he's not right.

I am also not comparing this guy "symptom for symptom" to Cunanan--what I am saying is that there's a similar pattern of inappropriate behavior, specifically, the spree killing of innocent people followed by "going on the lam" and triggering a national manhunt.

No one had the opportunity to break down Cunanan's issues with an examination of the patient, except in a "post mortem diagnosis" kind of way--he killed himself after he killed Versace. No matter what people claim to know about him, it's just a best guess. He's not around to provide confirmation, dead men tell no tales.

To many apologists for a crazed killer! There are no excuses for taking someone elese life because you feel agrieved. No ifs, ands or buts! He's a dangerous killer. He needs to be treated like one.

Appalling apologia and outright justification for mass murder. Sickening and indecent.

that's pretty judgmental and attacking me for engaging in critical thinking appears to be an issue for you. It appears that perhaps you lack reading comprehension, critical thinking skills don't appear in your tool kit or both.

I was NOT apologizing for this person's actions and if you were capable of reading comprehension you would find that disclaimer in the beginning of my third paragraph... right here:

These matters can be very complex. I thought it was a worthwhile movie. I recommend it and would be interested on your views on it.

I do think there is a real difference --- though it's all murder, at the end of the day--between killing employees one believes are mocking or abusing one, and then, usually, shooting oneself, and shooting two innocent young people and then calling up the dad of one of 'em and taunting the guy and issuing threats because "He didn't defend me good enough."

There's a different pathology afoot here, I should think.

with authority in the workplace. The problems lie in the behavior on both sides. The employee feels helpless when facing the abuse of authority, what the employee perceives as an unfair firing or an arbitrary docking of hours or maybe a dishonest review. But the employee is helpless about dealing with it. Bosses can be really arrogant and dismissive of employees.

But it is all murder when you get down to it. The question isn't whether the murder is wrong or right. It is definitely wrong. The question is whether the anger that motivated the murder and perhaps therefore the murder could have been prevented. That's where I think there is work to be done.

I think that when people say that mental health care should be part of the solution to gun rampages, they are talking about teaching people to deal constructively with anger.

Anger management classes can really help people. Depends, of course, on how they are taught. But I have seen some amazing changes. Dealing with addiction and teaching people positive self-talk can also help in some cases as I understand it.

As a culture, we tacitly approve of people's expressing extreme anger in anti-social ways. Our TV and movies are full of exaggerated displays of anger and other negative emotions. That contributes to the view that violence and killing can actually be justified or remedy a situation.

I'm not thinking about his grievances, so I don't know how effective his tack has been. I'm thinking I am glad I don't live out west.

The LAPD may have said they are re-investigating his complaints to mollify him and prevent further murders (they have protection on fifty people, after all) or to persuade him to pop his head up so they can capture/kill him.

whatever the end of this story turns out to be, the intent was to get public attention and now he's got it. No matter how emotionally we respond, he accomplished that portion of his intentions. Whatever else he wants remains to be seen. What I was trying to say above was that our society pretty much demands outrageous behavior so that one's issues, regardless of how valid or messed up, come to the public's attention. If that ruffles feathers then I suggest those with the feathers might want to take a look at what actually gets your attention by someone you've never heard of.

The guy, no matter how messed up by whatever means, was of a mind to get the country's attention and so he has, 'nuff said.

They are saying he is a batshit crazy, stone cold blooded, evil killer and he is NUTS. He kills beautiful, innocent young people, and then calls up their dad and taunts them in a vicious and reprehensible fashion.

No one is saying Word One about the "bad LAPD" or anything like that on any TV coverage I've seen. No one is "seeing his side" or having any sympathetic attitudes towards him.

They are saying that this crazy guy wants to kill fifty people, at least, and those people need and are getting protection. It's all "lock your doors, look out, be careful, there's a million dollar reward, and this guy is DANGEROUS!!!" There's no "poor misunderstood fellow" coverage at all.

So I don't think he got his way. His attempt to focus attention on his issues has failed. He's being portrayed in the media as a monster who needs to be captured or killed. The sooner, the better.

He's getting Cunanan-like coverage. He didn't get what he wanted. The ONLY place I am hearing any discussion of his "grievances" is amongst a small cadre of people here, frankly.

The focus is on where he might have gone, that surveillance tape has revealed someone looking like him bought scuba gear; that there's heightened scrutiny along the border; that the Mexican authorities are getting involved; that there's a million dollar reward out for this guy; that he murdered three innocent people.

No one gives a shit about his grievances.

The killing of innocent people is rarely justified in support of a cause ...

Sorry if I disagree, but Dorner does not get a free pass to murder innocent human beings because he, you, or anybody else disagrees with LAPD policies or procedures ...

DU has become a darker, meaner place ...

I think 99.99999999999999999999% of DU does also (always one, hence the lack of 100% )

NO ONE here supports cold-blooded murder, and I think I'm safe in saying that for the most part, DUers do not believe the end justifies the means. There is no excusing murdering innocent people to make a point or get revenge on people you fell have wronged you. However, there is a problem with our police forces across the nation. Many of the things in Dorner's manifesto are truths we'd be foolish to deny. Does that mean he is justified in his actions and not a highly disturbed individual? Absolutely not. But to throw out everything he's said, and to discount that there's a serious problem with our law enforcement agencies - what they are allowed to get away with, how they abuse their power in too many instances to ignore, and the culture of corruption that permeates them because 1 man handled dealing with it in a unacceptable way would be a mistake.

Why bother?

I always understood DU to reflect the human community at large, with all the good and bad that goes with it ..

There are those in the community at large who will use the slightest pretext for committing the murder of innocent human beings, and there are those in DU who do the same thing ...

I am not surprised in the least ...

You wanna talk about how the police are really really awful? ... fine; we can do that, and you will find we are in nearly universal agreement ... but I won't tolerate using the justifications of a twisted murderer as the context of that argument ...

Murder is wrong ... PERIOD ... End of story ...

I cannot BELIEVE what some DUers are saying - it is DISGUSTING

I believe the president's representative said such killings were 'excellent and wise' or some such.

then there was madeline albright, who said the children killed in iraq were 'worth it' or something similar.

Then he is nothing more than a vigilante and an anarchist.

Note-And I am not a fan of bad cops. And I come from NYC where there is like in Los Angeles, a history of bad cops
(why the good cops don't drive the bad ones out, I don't know).

But, can anyone here say they know the entire story of this case, except for what has been released?

There are like four different issues involved

One can be one who backs someone over three of the issues, however a private person killing multiple people is not one of the things I back.
That puts him in the same league as Zimmerman.

And yes Mr. Dorner is black. But that does not give one permission to overlook the murders.

That said, if I was on a jury, would I convict him of first degree murder?
NO (based on what is known), I would say he is most certainly NOT guilty by reason of insanity.

I am very sad he didn't get the help he needed for his demons.

It's like Tim McVeigh thought he had reasons to. NO he didn't.
NO the ones who did 9-11 didn't have the right to do what they did, even if they had a political reason.

NO the Son of Sam no matter what the voices in his head said, did not have the right to terrorize NYC for a year.

I really think this V for Vengence thing is getting out of hand.

Anarchy is NEVER the right thing to do.

IMHO.

(and if it weren't political, we would not be discussing it here.)

BTW, if he didn't have access to guns and bullets, he would not be so deadly, would he?
Are the guns legal? illegal? Does it make a difference? NO.
Another reason to ban all guns from the street of all types.
Once he was no longer a cop, he should no longer have been allowed any acess to one with the problems he has.



and are his backers saying that the LAPD should back off, let him finish off his list, and call it even?
I would hope not.
Life isn't a movie.
Movies have happy endings.
This one didn't.

imho.


btw3-Police head William Bratton is the link between NYC and Los Angeles police abuse.
It was on his watch in NYC and on his watch when the problem in Los Angeles occurred.
It has to be the training and what the goal is of Mr. Bratton.
He was quite controversial in NYC. And it was the black/white divide like most other things as to his popularity.

out because there are a lot more of the bad ones, and they're the ones in power.

We're shot, one by LAPD, the second by Torrance PD.

This might lead to the belief that the cops are behaving in a heavy handed way. I got a question, don' feel insulted, you live on the right side of the tracks? For the record, I do, but ten years of EMS and now a year and a half of news coverage lets me understand these sentiments about LAPD in particular are not without foundation.

It might be shocking to you, but LAPD has been considered out of control for a few decades now. Scandals such as Rampart, were serious, as in seriously wrong.

It is not hatred of the cops to point out that LAPD as a few issues. For that matter, LAPD is not the only police agency with issues, especially if you live on the wrong side of the tracks...or have the necessary understanding of why people feel this way. It is not baseless.

However, that doesn't make Dorner's actions correct, admirable, or justified. The OP isn't about hating the LAPD, it is essentially saying, look at Dorner's side. Regarding the quote of "He is not that different from any other human that becomes obsessed," I call bullshit. Dorner is different because he killed 3 innocent people.

The psychology, IMO, is similar. And like most in US history, It will fail.

The sentiment is coming from what I described. This kettle is boiling, and I fear it might boil over.

For the record, it does, I am staying out of there. Wrong skin tone.

He was college educated, an officer in the Marine Corps and a police officer. What slave ever had such a resume?

The fact that he's a sadistic murderer means firing him was a sound move by the LAPD to clean house.

How on earth does this have ANYTHING to do with slave revolts?
As for the rest of your post, I cannot comment since it makes no sense.

Slave revolts? Boil over?



Police departments are under civilian control. They change when political will forces them to change. One nutjob with some guns won't make them change. Sorry to see DUers being fooled by Dorner.

Also what is going on in LA.

But carry on. As I asked, you come from the right side of the tracts, don't you?

go ahead and have the last word.

The LA police dept has a history of being corrupt but this has nothing to do with slave riots or the fact that Dorner is a lunatic.
My favorite tract is this one influenced by the great Jack Chick...

between The Old Ones and The Eater of Planets, I'd say we are pretty fucked.
If I was a slave, I'd be rioting!
Thankfully, skin tone and right side of the tracts will be fine, I fear.

But I do not alert or play jury.

I will just point out that if this was alerted it would remain standing.

in the toolbox of a system of controls by tiny few who rule and profit. Passing connections, wealth, and control down their lines like aristocrats of old. In many cases their blood descendants stretching back to the Holy Roman Empire or further back.

Occasionally, a bone is thrown to keep the pot from boiling over as long as the ruling class isn't overly disturbed. Every great while a sacrificial lamb is given up. Somewhat less often the next rung down knocks off the top and takes over under phony new management with new titles.

Wheter a Jackerie, a corrido, or a ballad, identifying with the "bad guy" the psychology is similar.

I almost expect a norteño once it's over from the Ortega street, and music celebrating HS life from the wrong side f the tracts.

The sociology is fascinating now.

I don't know WTF is wrong with some people here.

is wrong. He feels utterly justified in murdering innocent people.

And correct about what? It sounds like what you are saying is that he is correct that the kind of action he's taken is needed.

You don't know what happened with him at LAPD. Nor do I.

LAPD sucks. I don't believe they created Dorner.

Dorner CHOSE to murder innocents who had nothing to do with his complaints about the LAPD.

Find for me a big-city police department that doesn't have race problems, or brutality problems, or a thin blue line of its own. Anyone who didn't know LAPD was corrupt is either willfully ignorant or was living under a rock.

There is nothing to understand about this killer other than that he took the lives of people who had NOTHING TO DO with his troubles. All three were ambushed. This, in an attempt to "reclaim his name".

How anyone could feel anything but contempt for this murderer is unbelievable.

process & in the course of that, there is a significantly committed demographic (I'm not sure how big it is) who mistake this kind of thing for heroism in the service of principles. The point/value of that to them is exactly the degree to which it is a repudiation of how unbelievable it is to you and any others. It's reactionary contrarianism dressed up as "liberty". Have you ever dealt with anyone like that personally? The stronger your own convictions about what is right or wrong, the stronger their opposition, FOR OPPOSITION's SAKE ALONE and NONE other!

What to do? - especially when we're consider whether there is a possibility of this sort of thing becoming "writ large". I hope we are thinking about how to prevent that without armed confrontations.

I don't know specifically what to do, but I think it begins with understanding them and proceeding from there to the truth, by whatever means available and that doesn't mean that you have to agree with them, but to listen and also to be listened to.

Anyone who's been live more than 15 years knows LAPD is brutal, racist, and secretive.

Killing people is simply killing people and has nothing to do with whatever wrongs thinks he suffered there. For that matter, killing people renders his rant irrelevant.

PRIVILEGES, actually, to take arms up against the duly appointed representatives of our government? Won't/aren't they trying to make a martyr out of this guy?

It's precisely these kinds of "asemetrical" events that have the potential to
wake up enough people all at once, so a REAL shift in consciousness can occur.

I certainly can't condone Dorner's tactics, because I'm basically into non-violence,
but neither can I condemn his motives, which are a tortured & tangled web largely
woven by the LAPD themselves.

"I certainly can't condone Dorner's tactics, because I'm basically into non-violence,
but neither can I condemn his motives, which are a tortured & tangled web largely
woven by the LAPD themselves."

So you think there is justification for killing innocent people?

I'll answer your question with another question:

So you think the LAPD can do no wrong, i.e. is not a notoriously corrupt
institution that wields it's authority not in the public interest, but instead
is aligned with nefarious private interests who collude to abuse the public
trust, over and over?

"I refuse to go all one-dimensional on the Dorner situation"

...what?

"So you think the LAPD can do no wrong"

The LAPD is plagued by corruption. Now, what the hell does that have to do with Dorner killing innocent people?

That's how I heard the story initially, when it was breaking.

Has something changed that I missed?

is to murder three people?


Are you serious?

I did not say those words, you did.

As I've said in several other posts under this OP,
Dorner is clearly off the rails, is a criminal that needs
to be brought to justice, one way or another.

What I don't get, is why anyone is surprised anymore
when someone "goes Postal" <-- hell that was over a
decade ago.

What I DON'T WANT TO GET LOST in all the one-dimensional
dime-store novel villainizing of Dorner as being the ONLY
criminal on the LAPD payroll.

after becoming a mass murderer?

The Dorner fan club would love Adolfo Eichmann if he decried Israel's human rights violations.

All I am saying is I want to know much more that is currently
known on the M$M nooze about what's going down at the LAPD,
internally, that led to this.

Has curiosity become heresy on DU while I wasn't looking?

healthy and appropriate--it's not like this villain is the first to make such allegations--the news shows us there's a problem.

But talking about how "for all we know the government staged these murders" is no different than what the Sandy Hook Truthers said, and got PPR'd for.

to make the point that there is a WHOLE LOT we do NOT
know at this point, so speculation is premature ...
that's the point I was attempting to make, but it apparently
got a whole lot of people's panties in a bunch at Meta.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220190

He killed three innocent people. Thats the end of the conversation.

What did that couple do that merited a death sentence?

And no one here is saying the LAPD can do no wrong. We are saying that there is nothing in the world that can justify Dorner's actions.

Authentic honest understanding gives one options; it can free you to address reality as best you can.

Thanks for your eloquent statement that makes more sense than the rampant flaming that is currently making the rounds. I prefer to have options for reason, myself.

characterized as "Liberty", even though I guess that will be, as it has been in the past, at the price of someone else's blood no matter how often we hear about that "tree of liberty".

Well, OK then. He's simply misunderstood.

Is that an argument for the Sandy Hook shooter too? I mean, are survivalists justified in killing people?

What about Jared Loughner?

who happens to carry the name Officer Dorner.

If Dorner goes down as the only villain in this unfolding freak show,
then we will have missed a golden opportunity to "get it" collectively,
to get how far we've sunk, how dog-eat-dog we're fast becoming, how
laws mean nothing, etc. Dorner is resorting violent means, is a criminal
himself; but how he got there is also important, what or who pushed
him over that line?

As I see it, Dorner is also one of the victims as well.

Next, one has nothing to do with the other, unless you are trying to mitigate Dorner's
murders by the LAPD misdeeds and injustices.

their way. A lot of cops like to take advantage of that perk while they're still serving.

but coming to a greater awareness of the need for better mental health after Loughner or Newtown,

is similar to the nation coming to the understanding that LAPD needs to be investigated as well.

It does not justify the killing. It does not say "I agree"
Maybe it does say "we are going to see more of this kind of shit if something isn't changed in our system"

And that's bad?

This whole story is just so sad on so many different levels. No one is winning -- let alone justice and fairness.

FOUR fingers!!!

George Orwell's 1984 - read it yourself, NOT the Cliff notes, NOT the wikipedia version:

http://books.google.com/books/about/1984.html?id=yxv1LK5gyV4C

Whew.

If he'd been in any other line of work, and had written a manifesto, and shot a few people, would I still have to try to understand him?

But, I wonder how the PDs in the south would react to an ex-white cop pulling a stunt like this. I am thinking they wouldn't be putting dozens of bullet holes in vehicles just because they are trigger happy. Other than that, I am not sure what they actually would do.