They did not have live with societal conditioned definition of manhood.

They taught me better and to have higher expectations.

And I still wonder about women.

I saw these two threads one above the other on GD the other day, I thought it was pretty ironic.

sexuality all their lives. it is easy enough to see.

males have societal, cultural, religious approval of their sexuality.

females have societal, cultural, religious disapproval of our sexuality.

And it's used to manipulate both men and women for profit and power.

Both sexes get wildly conflicting messages on what is appropriate behavior, it's really a wonder we aren't even more screwed up.

everything about the womans sexuality is giving to men. it is never them owning their sexuality. and with men, it is never handing their sexuality to women. it is always.... taking. (i am not talking rape)

Because someone is going to use that admission of vulnerability against him, it took me to damn near sixty to completely learn that lesson but I have it down now.

And men are on the average more emotionally fragile than women I think.

we discuss all this stuff regularly so they have the tools of handling it. i agree with you absolutely.

my oldest GF broke up with him last weekend. was hell. the other morning he comes in at 5 am, wakes me up, and tells me he needs to talk. he gets to be vulnerable and emotional and cry.... with me. NO judging. no repressing. but, we all spent an hour and half in conversation and he was able to put it in a healthy perspective. and i check in with him daily and he discusses.

it sucks fume, making men repress emotion as if they do not have it.

having boys, and knowing from the youngest of age how stupid it is, it is not something we demanded of our boys.

yes, in society they have to present an image. but then, as a woman, i dont want to be that "emotional, weak, weepy" woman i am supposed to be either.

Thirty years on I am trying to unlearn.

And massive amounts of heart trauma. As another poster said, not going to be that white knight anymore.

specific. i expect it from myself as a woman and all women, just as much as i expect it from men.

that is all that is being discussed here.

I saw a study the other day that stated that porn viewing on the internet is almost equally divided between men and women.
Not to OP point, but to yours.

on who views porn more.

will show up to try to say you are wrong. But yes younger women are more open to pornography just like men. Times are changing but the feminist movement will remembered in the history books at this current pace.

...and many other atrocities (actions and verbally) rained-down upon Women.

or only to women tho?

...throughout the ages.
They pretty much agreed with my thinking on the subject .

Having said that...The men I know and have formed a relationship with (Friends) tend to be scientists and or jazz musicians with
an understanding or caring attitude regarding the world.

I'll admit..after thinking about it, I might just be seeing your subject through the proverbial Rose Colored Glasses.

scientists, medical people, researchers, artists, musicians but also some small farmers and plant people --men with understanding and a caring attitude are the ONLY men I want to know. I'm lucky, as this also is the type of guy my dad, brothers, and in-law men are/were. So when I am thrown with the overtly sexist types, it's jarring. I always know where they're coming from, not a good place.

HOWEVER--re. Rose Colored Glasses--as sympathetic as all the good guys are --and if it weren't for yall the world would be a really terrible place --there is still a societal abuse of women that is not well understood or accepted. Maybe it's just that the degree to which women have to overcome obstacles on a daily basis, and the stress of that, is not recognised. Maybe that blindness comes from guilt, as what man has NEVER thought he was better off as a man (ie. felt sorry for women)? --and what woman has never thought that it's better to be a man? We live with the subtle unspoken fact that being a man has perks and privileges that being a woman does not. Women still are second-class citizens in this world--even as many are scrambling to change this, and the future does looks brighter. (The future looks brighter for men being able to break out of traditional male expectations also). But the sense of entitlement that even good men grow up with is very hard to change. As long as the general public thinks that having a boy is better than having a girl this will be so. And as long as Rethuglicon and Teabagger thinking finds widespread support...we are in danger of going back to to the real Dark Ages re women. Women are feeling this and fearing this. The gains feel very fragile.

So imagine if you can, what it is like to grow up knowing that you are going to have to fight the female "situation" your whole life, that you are less important in some eyes. To me the bottom line is that women (no matter how successful) often wish they were men, whereas men do not envy women. Whatever can be said to be women's positive values or traits are ridiculed or unappreciated. It is still true that the most successful women are those who can "act like a man."

One day---when men and women can break free of traditional roles and be who they are really are...individual composites of yin/yang (however you define the dichotomies)...that day is quite a ways off. But I can imagine it.

i like very much. addressing it from a new angle.

thought provoking, lol. the best. a little more of the onion.

thanks.

provided by the patriarchy. it is freeing for them and that in and of itself is its own reward. which makes it all so very easy for our young boys that are made aware of the restrictions to both genders, and the damage and harm it cause both genders.

A part of me also believes that you underestimate the fact that some people are able to put themselves in somebody else's shoes through some of their own personal experiences. Not necessarily 100% but enough to know an applicable amount of fear and frustration and torment on a daily basis...and therefore what women experience.

if he asks questions to better understand. sheeesh, my 13 yr old son (a few years back) recognized a man was being awfully sexist in a conversation. talking down and condescending to me having to do with my car. i didnt pay much attention cause i just went over him to the boss and told him what i wanted. but a little later my son said something to me. i was thrilled he was able to recognize without any nudges from me.

so, yes.

but, i think that ghost is saying is there is a natural instinct within us that does not want to see.

i love this cartoon.

hey, and it is with both genders. until i could see, i couldnt see so much, only some.

both men and women are exploited by ruthless corporate interests, maybe that understanding will spread.

I do think that some smarter, more perceptive men are sympathetic, but it is only human to feel the "thank god, at least I'm not a woman..." type of empathy, when you yourself are under stress. The corporates who control us love to keep us all in fear and frustration, & divided. We are all stressed more than we should be. Hard to feel generous and positive, in these uncertain times.

So--how do you see the "rose-colored glasses" you refer to?

...are reluctant to say an unkind word (just about) anybody else.

I'd like to see the world as it really is but the thought actually unnerves me.
As it is, I'm just crawling through reality...trying not to step on anybody's dreams.

pretty and passive themselves. Dance videos? Sorry.

Nice try with her videos but they do a pretty electric slide by solutions, and even make women look as if they needn't be taken seriously. I'd venture that Eve Ensler makes the male power structure chuckle -- and dominance-driven laugh -- with her feel-good non-solutions. If these videos have even entered their radar.

I would offer that Andrea Dworkin had better explanations about the passivity of men and offered better solutions than pointing and dance videos. Andrea Dworkin showed how passive men are complicit in maintaining the male social, religious and economic power structure that invisibly keeps women struggling and suffering.

I think, rather, that the issue here is how sexism and misogyny are so institutionalized and so embedded in society, that the ideology of said sexism and misogyny is pervasive.

Speaking for myself as a man...I can be empathetic and sympathetic, I can try to understand, and I like to think of myself as well-intentioned, but I know in my heart I will not completely see things from a woman's perspective, just as a white person, I literally cannot completely, 100%, see things from the perspective of a person of color, or as a straight person, see things from the perspective of a member of the LGBTQ community.

All of this, of course, doesn't mean that I shouldn't do my damnedest to try to be aware, understand, empathize, and bridge the gaps of experience and social class. Ignorance or apathy is no excuse for bigotry.

what the woman is saying that as a man, you can speak for and to men, and be all over it from a mans perspective.

so when men are sexist and misogynist, you know as a man that that is not a biological action, innate of men, and as a man can speak out to men.

i have always felt that i have a responsibility to speak to the wrongs of women, to women, because i am a part of that group. i will be heard most because i am a part of that group.

just as i feel americans should stand up to americans. christians should stand up to christians. men need to stand up to men when their behavior is sexist and it not be acceptable.

nothing makes me feel better than to hear my husband say something out loud, for my boys to pick up, that is supportive of women. that is so much more effective than my voice. simply because he is a man, and understands the life of man.

thanks for your post. you made me think thru it a little more.

Us men do have a responsibility to stand up to other men, I agree.

And you're characterizing that as somehow a bad thing? How is it unreasonable? (Without making it about you or the plight of men) how is that a bad or unreasonable thing?

It is much appreciated.

Excuse me... "good men". Obviously the bad men don't believe buy into idiotic sweeping generalizations.

Maybe if Ms Ensler directed her anger at Republican congressmen who make casual dismissals of the horrors of sexual assault, she'd do the cause more good.