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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHere's video of police shouting "burn that motherfucker" and "burn him out" as Dorner was trapped.
Here's video of police reportedly shouting "burn that motherfucker" and "burn him out" as Dorner was surrounded inside the cabin.
11:50 PM EST: San Bernardino County Sheriff spokesperson Cindy Bachman said it's believed the suspected shooter's body is still inside of the burned cabin, although she refused to confirm Dorner as the shooter. Bachman also said investigators may not be able to enter the cabin until Wednesday morning because of the heat and live ammunition inside.
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edgineered
(2,101 posts)If he was a guinea pig in a cage would they fight over who got to reach in and kill him by twisting his neck? You can't defend this level of brutality.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)And killed cops. What did you think was going to happen? He was shooting at police all day. I'm not going to waste one moment worrying about a guy who goes around killing people. This is exactly how Dorner planned to end his life. This was obviously suicide by cop from the start.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,135 posts)And then headed for the mountains. Had his axle not broken, he wouldn't have had to burn the truck, and they may not have known he was up there.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)SleeplessinSoCal
(9,135 posts)I think it's downright bizarre that he was camped across from the police command post. Was that pre-planned?
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)mentioned it Tuesday during their coverage of the cabin at 7 Oaks as well.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,135 posts)The whole episode is like a Rorschach test.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)to end in suicide by cop. That was obvious to me from the beginning. From all accounts, he wasn't a stupid man. He knew what he was doing.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the same thing. After all, it's 'understandable' isn't it??
If they killed him in self defense, that is one thing, but, if they set out to kill him and deprive US the people, from a trial and conviction according to our judicial system which we keep pretending we are proud of, then they most definitely violated the law. And if you approve of vigilante justice by cop, then it's okay for everyone. I prefer the rule of law.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)and murder is never justified. But, as you noted, self defense is.
My point was he does not appear to be a man who was interested in coming out of this situation alive. Shooting at police all day on the day he ending up being killed is evidence of that.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)"You kill our family members, we do what we like".
That's not policing. That's gang shit. Unfortunate, but there you go. Whether it's an understandable reaction doesn't enter into it. The whole point of the police is that they don't just flare up when provoked but end the situation sensibly and safely. If there are police officers in that cohort directly affected by Dorner's actions, whooooee what an incredibly bad idea.
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)husbands who are fellow cops. Then they rally around the abuser.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)i hate it when people post stuff and assume everyone know the back story. coud you please post a link to a story about the cops rallying around the abuser?
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)as gang members with badges.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)How do you propose they should have ended the situation sensibly and safely? He had already killed at least one person during the siege yesterday alone. You seem to believe police should be cannon fodder and that they don't have the same right to life that the rest of us do.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)is not an American ideal.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)They are the police. He was shooting at them. if a guy with a whole slew of semiautomatic riffles starts shooting at you, by all means walk about and tell him how badly you feel about his life. Of course you won't live to tell the story.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)It's vigilante justice. They killed him out of anger. That is why the criminal justice system exists, to stop revenge killings.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)that I do not. I don't know the events that led to that fire. There hasn't been an investigation yet and I'm not psychic.
DJ13
(23,671 posts)Those tear gas cannisters have a long history of being used as incendiary devices by police.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)that was my first thought when you posted this:
"This was obviously suicide by cop from the start"
So your not clairvoyant after all? Wow, you had me there for a minute... 
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)based on seeing tons of these guys in the media. I don't know for sure, of course, but it certainly appears to be the case. Really, who actually thinks they could survive after killing cops, family members of cops, taking hostages, and shooting at cops all day long? What in that doesn't say suicide by cop? If it wasn't intentional, the guy had to be one of the stupidest people ever born. Reports don't indicate that he was a stupid person.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Nuts + gun = tragedy in America
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)Which it may indeed have been. It was not, however, vigilante justice. Police by definition are not vigilantes.
Merriam Webster.
vig·i·lan·te noun \ˌvi-jə-ˈlan-tē\
: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)As in summarily executed!
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)or do they not count?
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Of course they count. And the cops barbarically immolated him in revenge. Problem is, revenge isn't justice.
Cops in other countries aren't quite as barbaric as in the USA. Here they have a GOD complex.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)BainsBane
(53,041 posts)You take care of it.
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)I trial would have been good. 
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)He could easily have been persuaded to surrender with aromatherapy.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)In the meantime, the police could have sent for some herbal tea to be delivered to the cabin, and discussed the situation with him in a group therapy setting under the guidance of a certified holistic relationship therapist.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)exactly the same thing as a trial. But go ahead with your riff, you seem to be inspired and far be it from me to deny anyone their artistic mojo.
uppityperson
(115,678 posts)If he'd surrendered, he could have gone to trial. Too bad he chose not to because it used up a lot of lives, people's time, a cabin, etc.
TexasTowelie
(112,350 posts)
Amonester
(11,541 posts)while waiting for him to get hungry one of these days...
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Who, I'm sure, was thrilled to have a famous guest in their house.
Amonester
(11,541 posts)Wait....
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Dorner apparently missed the "please do not use this house as your armed holdout" note, stuck to the refrigerator with a magnet.
Amonester
(11,541 posts)in the hopes of creating a diversion so he could escape in the night (but with 'drones' or 'hellcopters' all over... unlikely...).
He could have vandalized the place to no end too, who knows. Family albums, porcelains, et al (if any).
Wrecked property one way or another. 
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)lol. Insurance may not cover it either. Depends on their coverage I guess. If the police really did start it and not Dorner, then maybe it isn't covered. Who knows. Maybe someone with insurance knowledge can give us a guess?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I somehow doubt the police requested Dorner to hole up in someone's house, as opposed to receiving his Miranda warning and being assigned a lawyer.
But you are right, there may be an exclusion here, so fuck the homeowner too. They were obligated to have Dorner as their guest.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)If Dorner had surrendered, he could have faced trial. But he didn't. He thought it better to shoot at police. He chose suicide by cop, as was clear was his plan from day 1.
uppityperson
(115,678 posts)would have done the whole trick.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Pinboy will be along any moment with a coffee enema.
Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #145)
jberryhill This message was self-deleted by its author.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)How many more police should have been killed trying to take him alive?
Occulus
(20,599 posts)I ask this question in all seriousness.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)I don't think anyone but the police know that as this point. It appears that Dorner was committed to fighting until the end. I just read a report in the guardian that said the police deliberately set the fire, which I would think violates their codes of conduct.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Revenge is not justice, sorry. That's why we have a criminal justice system.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)this tape recounts the words of one or two policemen.
The man was shooting at police all day. He chose not to surrender. How many more cops would you have had killed trying to take him alive, against his will? Or do you propose he should have been allowed to roam free, to take other hostages and continue to kill Californians?
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)The cops can burn people alive if they deem it proper revenge.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)refusing to think or read. Why suggest potential questions when you are far happier to turn to simplistic insults that reflect just how little you have to say.
No where did I say it was appropriate to burn people alive. NO WHERE. I said we did not know the circumstances, but you are evidently clairvoyant and no all.
The question is why do you care so little about the police and family members killed? Somewhere in your mind does the mere accident of being born to a police officer mean a person doesn't have the same right that the rest of us do? Or is it just mass murderers who write manifestos that tug on your gray cells that you hold in high esteem and therefore more worthy of life than the people then the men and women they were working so hard to kill two days ago? Why? Because police are evil and their lives, apparently, hold no value to you. Anyone who values the life of some but not others doesn't value life at all.
I still have yet to see an explanation of why you all so concerned about Dorner and not the other mass murderers who killed recently. Damn, if they'd only written manifestos.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Nothing you just said about me has any basis in reality, you made the whole thing up.
I have no concern about Dorner or any murderer period, nor have I shown any and you know it.
Police should not execute people for revenge under any circumstances, regardless of the crime they have committed. The penal code agrees with me.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)BainsBane
(53,041 posts)NO.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Dorner is already labeled and hunted (and executed) as a murderer. The cops, who flat out surrounded and slayed him, will be given medals. It's all about who you kill for.
Response to Union Scribe (Reply #26)
Post removed
Marr
(20,317 posts)Where'd you get your amazing internet-based mind-reading abilities?
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)See how you feel next time an LEO decides that you are guilty of a crime, and executes justice on the spot, without a trial, judge, or jury.
You must have never read the Constitution, nor respect any of the principles stated within it in any way.
Dorner was a SUSPECT until proven to be guilty of any crimes in a court of law.
The police and you found him guilty, without ever having him see his day in court, or hearing one shred of evidence.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)They better hope they killed the right guy, so far they've been wrong every time they decided to shoot first in this manhunt, haven't they?
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)The impression I get from many responses here is that you all don't think cops' lives matter.
edgineered
(2,101 posts)You know, the part where it was proved that HE wrote the manifesto. HE killed the cops or others.
Was it even on TV? I would have thought it would be as big as the OJ trial.
Geez, I hate it when everyone but me sees these big things!
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Emotional reactions are more fun.
cali
(114,904 posts)earlier that day to the game wardens who attempted to stop him, right?
frylock
(34,825 posts)right? please stay off of any juries. please.
cali
(114,904 posts)Yeah, "burn motherfucker, burn" is exactly what I said. NOT.
sick to put your words in my mouth.
Dishonest. fucked up. you're the one who should never be on a jury, pumpkin.
frylock
(34,825 posts)and I apologize for my previous post. I completely agree with just about everything you've stated.
again, I do apologize.
cali
(114,904 posts)so far from what I feel that I lost my temper.
Again, I'm sorry too.
frylock
(34,825 posts)and it has brought out the worst in me.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)No one doubts he was shooting and killing.
He got what he wanted and what he deserved.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)And he got what he had coming.
uppityperson
(115,678 posts)other people, right? Too bad he didn't surrender and chose to go to trial.
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)appears to be right in Dorner's corner. 
That doesn't surprise me either - not in the least. That crowd lives in a Red Dawn fantasy-land full of enthusiastic talk about getting into a shooting war with other Americans for any number of perceived slights - the Gungeon is full of such chatter from our "pro gun progressives"**, with the Host down there nearly always rallying behind his "pro-RKBA" troops and encouraging them to keep leading that charge.
Truly disgusting stuff from the gun lobby/pro-NRA crowd.
*( 
)
**( )
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)they've been longing for.
Make sure those guns are well oiled. Better buy some extra ammo and thirty round mags.
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)Good catch
retrogal
(65 posts)I really don't know what to say. Many mixed feelings.
gateley
(62,683 posts)feel the emotions the rest of us do when under so much pressure.
Just a sad, sad story all around. 
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)This would not be a good case to cite to gain sympathy for victims of police brutality.
It would be like using Timothy McVeigh as a poster child to oppose the death penalty.
RetroGamer1971
(177 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...as far as some of these folks are concerned.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)And McVeigh, if you'll recall, was caught and put on trial. I know, that's so passe.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)McVeigh was "caught" while he was already being detained. It was very lucky.
So, Dorner was just relaxing at his cabin in Big Bear after two nice people loaned him a vehicle. Obviously napping on the couch, he didn't hear the doorbell when the police came to chat with him.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Those are some pretty low standards for policing. But you haven't answered who these folks are who'd defend McVeigh.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)So, tell me, whose cabin was Dorner in? His?
If you are wanted for murder, it's a pretty good idea to turn yourself in, because you get a free lawyer and a whole lot of other rights. Instead, if you present a danger to others like, oh, tying them up and taking their car, and shoot at people trying to apprehend you, then it's a good bet that you will be met with deadly force.
Now, go on your rant about your hero David Koresh.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Seriously, you're usually above that sort of stupid comment. Are you going to say I hate America next? Tell me to love it or leave it?
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Or are you just going to toss around passive aggressive accusations like third graders?
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Maybe this isn't actually the far left we're responding to.
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)indeed, as most of the regulars down there are pretty right-wing. That he has chosen to express the batshit crazy far-Right teaparty interpretation of Dorner as a "hero" of some sort doesn't surprise me in the least.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Can't be that obvious.
Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #141)
Post removed
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)
Your acusations don't hold much value after you called anyone who is pro second amendment a homophobe, a sexist and a racist.
JI7
(89,260 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It's the Freepers who are always on about Waco, Ruby Ridge, or whatever holed-up gun nut decides to make his Alamo stand.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)which is..."burn the motherfucker." Right. I guess I have a lot to learn about being a real Democrat like you guys!
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)That one need not decide, in a conflict, that one side is completely right and one side is completely wrong?
Dorner was a dangerous fugitive and there was probable cause to arrest him. Having taken captives and fires at police, the use of deadly force was warranted under relevant precedents.
That does not make it okay for the police to cheerlead or to fail to give him an opportunity to surrender. By the same token, it would not be advisable for them to give him an opportunity to escape absent surrender.
As a liberal, I don't simply look a news events, decide who is 100% right and good and who is 100% wrong and evil. Unfortunately, reality is not a morality play, and humans are imperfect.
Your assumption, that because I believe I the rule of law - including the relevant law in relation to the use of deadly force in the course of attempting to apprehend or obtain surrender of dangerous suspects - that I somehow condone behavior amounting to bloodlust, is a product of your own unfortunate and illiberal tendency toward a false dichotomy.
It is possible for both sides of a conflict to be wrong. But the simpleminded tend to believe that every conflict is one of right and wrong.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)and arguing against the simplemindedness of those saying the cops had no choice and it doesn't matter even if they did because fuck that monster and blah blah. Dorner was a murderer, and those cops revenge-killed him. If you think I've been saying that "one side is right" then you haven't read my posts here.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)I'm not surprised by all sorts of wrong shit people do. That doesn't make it any less wrong. Dorner was a monster. But we task the police with dealing with monsters without acting like them.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)From what assembly line of saints should we recruit them?
Unfortunately, we only have humans to work with.
You want to effect change in this world? How about if you learn to have a discussion without attacking the character of others.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)"How about if you learn to have a discussion without attacking the character of others."
You said David Koresh was my hero. Out of nowhere you said that. And you say I, not you, should stop attacking people's characters? You're a joke.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Are you saying that you are justified in behaving poorly because I have?
Is that your standard of behavior?
You are allowed to be a jerk, because someone else was a jerk?
Have you ever considered joining the LAPD?
Why do you hold them to a standard of behavior to which you will not hold yourself?
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)Kettle-pot and all that.
What is with all of this misunderstanding? I read people saying stuff like "Dorner is a murderer, I agree, but I would rather he had been taken and had a trial" or something similar to that. Then I see a shitload of posts about how the poster is pro dorner, anti police, a freeper, and a lot of other name calling for that.
It just sounds desperate and I can't understand why. It's not as black and white as you see it.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Again, the excuse that "he's acting poorly, so I can too" is precisely the line of thinking which you and your ilk claim the is what's wrong here.
You obviously have not been reading the thread since the "freeper" accusation was directed at me.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)Like are you 70? I didn't know. Ilk is a funny word. What was in that self deleted post?
WCLinolVir
(951 posts)need better recruitment/recruits and more retraining. Lowering the bar by stating "we only have humans to work with", and that "this is the inevitable result of dealing with monsters" is lazy, apathetic, and does not begin to address the issues. I may not hold out any hope that this man has a soul for redemption, or even care to try, but to lower the standards and more importantly, the public trust of the legal duty of the police and it's policies and procedures, is destructive to the society as a whole. It is much bigger than just this incident. If anything the police got right down into the gutter with an unbalanced man and for all appearances, is just as sick as the perp. They are paid police officers, supposedly professionals, with a duty. They are not unpaid volunteers without policy and procedure. Where were the higher ups??
Nay
(12,051 posts)If one cannot reasonably expect mature behavior from the police, then social norms make an ugly little shift from a country ruled by law to one run as a banana republic. The apparent fact that the higher-ups haven't demanded even-keeled behavior from their troops (and the fact that the troops don't seem to be aware of how they appear to innocent citizens who now see how they can be in the line of fire) is a sickening realization indeed. Public trust is already low, and these cops have brought it even lower. The POLICE are the ones who are tasked with acting in a mature and lawful manner, even toward those who are criminal, mentally ill, etc. We don't expect people like Dorner to act rationally at the end of a spree, but we DO expect the police to.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)There is obviously a big problem in CA regarding the public's trust in its police force and for good reason. I don't know anyone that hasn't themselves or had a family member harassed to some degree by a police officer. Dorner obviously did some horrendous things but the fact the public was so torn about it should give the LAPD and a whole lot of other police forces something to think about.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Dorner got what he wanted. The cops got what they wanted.
What's not to like in that?
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)There is no way I can take you seriously after you posted that. "What's not to like in that?" FFS.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If Dorner got what he was after, and the cops got what they were after, then there's no sense complaining about it like someone late to a circle jerk.
MichaelHarris
(10,017 posts)don't shoot at cops when they knock on the door. Ask those guys at Waco what happens when you answer the door with gunfire, ask the idiots at Ruby Ridge, ask this nut Dorner in the cabin. It's easy man, answer the fucking door if you want your day in court. Answer it with gunfire and I don't give a shit what happens to you after that.
WCLinolVir
(951 posts)And simpleminded, and unfortunate. Which I think in passive-aggressive terms was the whole point of your post. Too bad you had to wade through all those other nouns, verbs, etc.. But I guess we would not have been able to see how astute you are, or you think you are.
RandiFan1290
(6,239 posts)Nothing has changed.
treestar
(82,383 posts)+1000000
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)That's fuking sick.
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)and just last week weren't a few on here who are now defending the right to burn him out crying about drones taking out traitor american citizens in foreign countries?
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)
Myrina
(12,296 posts)He could talk, and Goddess knows the LAPD always has alot of secrets to keep.
Nay
(12,051 posts)Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)That will be on every TV in America to see, just in case anyone else is
contemplating "following in Dorner's footsteps".
edgineered
(2,101 posts)Or set someone up.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)to figure out killing cops and their kids is going to get him killed, he doesn't have a functioning brain to begin with. Dorner knew what would happen to him. He planned it.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)having a great big "I'm not scared anymore" emotional reaction and totally flipping out like a crowd of adolescent fools with a great big "woohoo" because, hey, why not?
We can probably happily assume that the last thing on their minds was sending "messages".
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Please elaborate on the behavior you believe this is intended to deter.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)My post speaks for itself.
I'm not looking for a big dust-up right now,
and your question kind of feels like you are,
and I'm not into it.
If my post isn't clear to you, feel free to make
up your own mind about what it means.
thanks.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)but in the reverse. It will bring out more, and more, and more.... it's not a deterrent it's the instigator.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)esp. given this news today of the NRA handing out flyers calling
for an armed revolution.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022366344
Rather like the drone strikes creating 30 new terrorists for every
one killed.
jsr
(7,712 posts)like in the olden days.
mokawanis
(4,450 posts)and put him on trial. Maybe it wasn't possible to take him alive, I don't know.
Nobody should applaud the cops serving as judge, jury, and executioner. I'm wondering how many people who are glad Dorner was killed by the cops (if that is indeed what's happened) also support capital punishment.
edgineered
(2,101 posts)You know, the part of the circus where it is proved that he wrote the manifesto. The part where it is proved he did the killing.
It's easy to miss these things with the news cycles being so quick. Maybe a DU'er here has a link, and I ask for a DU'er because both the OP's and the responses that I've been seeing seem to be coming from some very hateful people with the will to bypass what I believed to be our justice system.
Oh well, I'm probably wrong again. Let's just agree that the LAPD did what they had to, and forget about it. No one would have wanted to sit through another OJ-like trial anyway, you know how boring it is having to prove things.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)The two hardly go hand in hand. Dorner was a very serious danger, had killed numerous people, refused to surrender, and I'm not seeing any other way to neutralize him than what was done. He already took out two officers during the fire fight at the cabin, and I have ZERO sympathy for him being killed in order to prevent him from hurting anyone else.
With capital punishment the person is already caught and contained. It's nothing more than revenge killing which is ENTIRELY different than killing someone who is CURRENTLY doing their level best to kill others and succeeding at it.
Dorner never had any intention of surrendering. He was either going to go out by suicide by cop or kill himself. Yes, I'm glad that he's dead and can harm no other people seeing that it was DORNER himself who made the choice to kill other people and keep doing it until he was killed himself. Good riddance to the foul sack of murderous shit.
I truly do not understand the sympathy for this disgusting murderer.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)you can change your name to "TorchTheSuspect"
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)What are you doing here when SNL is probably looking for such wit?
mythology
(9,527 posts)I think you're condemning yourself with your own words or do you think that you're the first person to ever come up with mocking somebody else's name/nick?
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Doesn't sound like they even tried to take him alive. They could have waited him out.
I guess we could just start shooting every cop-killer and suspected murderer on sight, rather than trying to take them alive. Who knows how many lives would be saved, and how much taxpayer money would be saved if we could just avoid having to go to trial, then incarcerate them afterwards.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)So, killing him was perfectly reasonable if it meant not risking anyone else's life to apprehend him.
Suicide by cop.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Because that's exactly what he was doing while trapped in that cabin, and one officer was killed and another shot who hopefully will survive. How many other officers would you be wiling to sacrifice to this murderous shit by "waiting him out" particularly when "waiting him out" would likely result in his killing more people but also having the opportunity to escape and go on killing ever more people?
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)They could have cordoned off the area and kept themselves out of the line of fire - something that I would hope any decent commander would know how to do.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)crime shows on T.V. How would you suggest that a large number of LE personnel (and firefighters, paramedics, and other ancillary people) "keep themselves out of the line of fire" over any protracted period? This clown was obviously a very good shot. Why would any responsible police commander continue to let the guy conduct target practice while 'waiting him out' and possibly losing another life?
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)The area appears to be pretty wooded. Why not fall back a certain distance, set up a perimeter, barricades, etc? Nobody's suggesting LEO's walk around presenting themselves as targets, but there ARE ways to reduce the risk.
No, these cops WANTED to burn him out. You can tell just from listening to the recordings.
onenote
(42,737 posts)Do you know what sort of supplies and provisions he had access to in that cabin? I don't, but it wouldn't at all surprise me to learn that there were sufficient provisions there for him to hunker down for a pretty long period. So how long are the authorities supposed to maintain a "cordoned off area" (one that they can safely set up without being picked off sniper style while doing so?) And for what purpose? Assuming that they could have done so, here are the possibilities from "waiting him out."
He has the opportunity to booby trap the cabin
He has more opportunities to shoot at those maintaining the cordon.
He has more opportunities to escape, particularly at night.
And in the end, if you wait him out and let him dictate what happens, you have the possibility that he will peacefully surrender, although there is zero evidence that he would ever do that and considerable evidence that if he exited that cabin it would be in a hail of gunfire. So the most likely outcome is that he dies. Violently. Or maybe he kills himself, which may well be what actually happened.
So the question is, given those possibilities, how do you minimize the risk that he will harm others? And that's to take the fight to him rather than hang back. I have no problem with that strategy.
As for exactly how it played out, there seem to be a number of posters who think that they know exactly what happened inside and outside that cabin. The only think I know for certain is that none of those posters actually know exactly what happened. I doubt anyone will ever know exactly what happened, although I'm sure there will some here that claim that they know.
Finally, I have no more problem with his being killed by the police than I have with the police killing Charles Whitman on the top of the tower at the University of Texas or with Brian Murphy, honored at last night's state of the union address, shooting to kill the sikh temple shooter in Wisconsin (and yes I know that after being wounded by Kelly the shooter blew his own brains out) or with the police shooting Timothy Dale Johnson, who was identified as the man who shot and killed Arkansas Democratic Party Chairman Bill Gwatney in 2008. The fact that the sikh shooter or Whitman or Johnson didn't get trials (because the either died by their own hand or by the actions of law enforcement) does not bother me at all. Do I regard them as murderers even though they never stood trial for their acts? Damn straight.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)If you "fall back" far enough to protect every Tom, Dick and Harry on scene you don't have a decent perimeter. And while LEO and other personnel don't 'walk around presenting themselves as targets', human nature being what it is prevails and sooner or later someone forgets and pops up or makes a handy target of himself. If you're dealing with a trained marksman like Dorner, the result of that is another dead cop.
The fact that cops had their adrenaline going and were cheering on the result doesn't mean that they PLANNED to burn him out or deliberately took measures to do so. The behavior may be reprehensible but hardly indicative of anything. People say all kinds of shit in tense situations that they would never otherwise have done.
You've already made up your mind based on hypotheticals designed to fit your preordained scenario. I don't believe the evidence supports that hypothetical.
cartach
(511 posts)hopemountain
(3,919 posts)as much as it is about humanity and always having the integrity to do not only the right thing - but the better thing. dorner did some terrible things and yes, he was f'd up in his head. but, now, lapd will not be held accountable for their own misdeeds and we will never hear from dorner, now, will we?
it is sad and tragic and i am sorry for the loss of the officers and their families. and now, there is no chance and no opportunity to know the whole truth. and that is equally tragic.
RetroGamer1971
(177 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)The Constitution, and the archaic sense of not guilty until proven...
But hey, I'm old fashioned that way.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I must have missed it. No matter how brutal Dorner or people like him are, attempted summary executions should not be tolerated by a civilized society.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)He murdered four people, and the police made sure he didn't get one for the thumb.
He had his chance to surrender and instead shot two wildlife wardens and murdered another cop and tried to murder those who surrounded him.
He got exactly what he was asking for.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)The 3 people that were shot at by cops, especially the ladies who were delivering newspapers. What did they do wrong? They weren't shooting at cops. They didn't murder anybody. The didn't kill any officers. Yet cops fired over 40 bullets at their vehicle in an attempt to kill. The cops thought it was Dorner and they decided to fire away.
This is what happens when cops have a summary execution mentality. Mistakes can be made and innocent people can be killed.
Again, summary executions should not be tolerated. Now, to your point I think we need more details about what went down at the cabin, but what we don't need are trigger-happy cops.
If he was firing at officers, then they should fire back. I agree with that.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)But unless the voice on that YouTube is a high ranking cop instead of some traumatized grunt getting shot at and yelling in the heat ofa battle, it doesn't prove anything.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Let's wait on more details. Knowing how crazy Dorner is, he probably was firing at cops. If that was the case, cops should take him out. No question about that.
susanr516
(1,425 posts)"This is what happens when cops have a summary execution mentality. Mistakes can be made and innocent people can be killed."
I have ZERO sympathy for Dorner. In my opinion, he killed two innocent people just to "get even" with Mr. Quan. That's the epitome of evil.
However, that doesn't give LE an excuse to shoot up any truck that just looks like the one Dorner was driving.
I was watching the live feed yesterday. When some newscaster mentioned LE was considering the use of tear gas or "flash-bang" devices, I got a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach, that LE had decided to torch the cabin. That cabin was owned by someone who had nothing to do with Dorner's murderous rampage. That cabin was also in the middle of a forest. I was really concerned about the possibility of a wildfire. I don't know if that area is in a drought, but in my part of the country, conditions are so dry that a single discarded cigarette can start a massive fire. Had they lost control of that fire, a lot more LEOs, firefighters, and innocent people could have been injured or killed.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)It's not just a matter of cops shooting back at a suspect who is shooting at them.
We have recordings of cops saying "burn that motherfucker" and "burn him out" - suggesting they deliberately set fire to the cabin he was in. That's a far cry from simply shooting back.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)They smoked him out, and he chose to cap himself instead of running out.
There was no way this was going to end with him alive. He made certain of that.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)It seems like they are used, more and more, quite intentionally as INCENDIARY DEVICES.
I have a problem with that. I would hope that every other civilized human being would, too.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)There was zero reason to fuck around with this guy. Wait until night and he could slip away. Best case scenario was going to be this guy dying either by his own hand (which seems to have happened) or by police bullets, with no one else injured. Worst case would have been a lot worse.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And you well know it.
All he had to do was say he'd surrender peacefully. He said the opposite.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Or were they firing at officers? Because for the life of me I can't figure out why officers pumped 40 bullets into the truck. Did they think it was Dorner? Yes. Were the officers trying to administer a summary execution? Yes.
That should NOT be tolerated.
Ever.
Hopefully the women get a nice fat check.
treestar
(82,383 posts)A fugitive from justice is not someone we can all wait around for until they settle down and decide they are ready for a trial. They have to be dealt with before they kill more people. Many intend to go out in a hail of bullets - suicide by cop. They know that.
Why do the police have to wait around and risk their lives and the lives of others when there are people like this out there?
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Why did the cops fire 40+ bullets at the women when they THOUGHT it was Dorner? What did the women do to invite that kind of deadly fire?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Not one order issued.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Cal Fire News ?@CalFireNews
Are we all clear on this?:The man #Dorner was assumed guilty, tried by law enforcement, cornered & purposely burned alive?
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)He killed one of them moments before he was killed.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)and haphazardly shooting at the wrong people and vehicles. Your heroes. 
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)The far left is as crazy as the Tea Party.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)but I don't think they're what you imagine. I'm more inclined to associate the RW with approving of ultra-authoritarianism to the extent of revenge-killing.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I also associate that the far right with a fanatical paranoia and hatred of the government and law enforcement.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)then your imagination is running away with you. Liberals typically express disgust at government and law enforcement running amok, like say screaming that you're going to burn a motherfucker for what he's done, and then doing it, as an officer of the "law".
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts) 2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)it would seem that the far right would be the "burn the fucker alive, he don't deserve a trial" crowd.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)What was missing from this thread is that he was murdering them.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)though I doubt it. But they knew they could very easily wait him out. He had limited supplies by this time. Limited ammo. Limited food if any.
They could have just waited. If that had been 4 civilian latino women in a truck instead of cops, who he had killed, he would not have died by fire.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Cops aren't known for being calm when you go after one of them.
frylock
(34,825 posts)everyone knows that, Edward R. Murrow.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)and a hang 'em high attitude. The DU'ers here are advocating for a trial and rule of law.
So who really sounds like the Tea Party here? Hint: it's you.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)He was a murdering pig who got stuck before he could murder again. He died with a small arsenal at his side.
Coyote_Tan
(194 posts)The folks who were shot at by mistake likely deserve a hefty settlement.
Dorner had quite literally just killed people before he hunkered down. Even in wackjob idiot land,if you are falsely accused, you surrender to custody and have your day in court. If he truly cared about showing corruption or whatever, then he would have surrendered and shouted out dirt for the world to see.
Fuck Dorner and anyone who supports him...
cui bono
(19,926 posts)So they should arrest him and let him have a trial. That's how it's supposed to work. The police dept. is not the judicial system.
Are we clear on this?
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I'm not condoning that. Shooting up the wrong car they deserve to be criticized for. Taking him out while he was taking them out? I have no problem with that.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)I criticize you, LAPD, for shooting gang style that truck of the wrong make, model and color with two elderly women in it. That was a really bad thing that you did. Now go about your day. You don't think, perhaps, that a strong criticism might be in order here? Perhaps even a strongly worded letter? Christ, and we wonder how the LAPD became the monsters that they are when there is absolutely no demand for accountability of their daily atrocities. Those cops belong in jail and those women should own the LAPD. Silly me for thinking that actions should have consequences.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)FIRED and sued, not criticized.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I'm not defending the LAPD at all. They've acted like out of control maniacs.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)I think we pretty much agree on this topic. 
It's just that it angers me so I write with crap in my words. lol
sorry bout that.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I've been more than critical of others in this thread.
jsr
(7,712 posts)If you snitch on our gang, we'll hunt you down and burn you alive on television.
And we'll gladly shoot women and children along the way to get to you.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)It is pretty fucking conclusive the cops intended to burn the cabin down and then lie about it.
Fucking disgraceful.
susanr516
(1,425 posts)Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Just peruse some of the Dorner-cabin-on-fire threads, you'll see a contingent of DUers practically celebrating the fact that the police torched the place.
Mnemosyne
(21,363 posts) Yup, seeing much hatred. Can't respond to 'em all, but doing the best I can for true du'ers. nt
Mnemosyne
(21,363 posts)my family all over again, and they are/were hard core reich-wingers.
Thanks for trying, edgineered! Don't frustrate yourself too much, not worth it. 
Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)Extrajudicial killings via drone or PD -- it's all good for DU denizens.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)with sometimes fatal results should be captured using water pistols and Hello Kitty stickers.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Show me one single post that suggested he be treated with kid gloves. Show me one single post that suggested anything that you claim.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)bet you a thou that you can't.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)whose sole goal was to kill as many cops as possible?
People are objecting to the use of tear gas cannisters, which were the cause of the fire.
How much risk should the police on the ground there have been subjected to in order to attempt to take a shooter alive who was determined to die rather than be captured?
frylock
(34,825 posts)it's the burn the mutherfucker out we're talking about. read. the. fucking. header.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)phrase.
Note that "burn the motherfucker" was not an order, but rather the excited chatter of someone being SHOT AT.
But the FTP crowd has no problem condemning police for using impolite language while getting SHOT AT.
jsr
(7,712 posts)What a fucking joke.
frylock
(34,825 posts)of course expressing your dismay at the cop's professional demeanor, or lack thereof automatically means that you side with dorner. more black/white authoritarian bullshit.
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)What did you expect them to say about this asshole? "Oh, we must go save this poor man, he hasn't had a trial! He may not be in his right mind and besides, it's morally wrong to be happy about someone dying!"
Fuck no. He was a piece of shit killer of innocents that got just what he asked for. Kill my people and see what I say about you as you burn.
That's the real world.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)It's like an SLA forum.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Your "real world" sounds like a third world junta.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Welcome to the real world. You don't get to shoot at cops and then use due process as a magic shield to prevent them from shooting back.
He chose this by shooting instead of surrendering.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)And you seem awfully certain of the circumstances, even moreso than the authorities are yet. I mean we get it, okay? You assume if they killed him it was their only choice, despite the very clear evidence of them saying they were going in to kill him.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Maybe they could have risked their lives to capture him alive, but he wasn't worth it.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)You argue in a strange shock and awe style. It doesn't make it any more reflective of what happened. They jumped right to option: "burn the motherfucker." You can continue to pretend they had no other option, and the evidence will continue to show it was a planned killing.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)proclaimed Dorner a dangerous murderer have no compunction about declaring the cops guilty of murder based on a fucking YouTube.
Sympathies are clear.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Dorner and the ones who stated they'd burn him and proceeded to do so. One is no better than the other, but the cops will get awards for their acts.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Please provide a name and rank within the police department.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)You think it's okay for anyone representing the law to act like that? And you think DORNER set the fire after two videos of cops talking about burning him? You know, you can play all these stupid little games trying to score points on an internet board but that's not what this is about. And once again you cannot escape the problems with these cops' actions. They aren't coming out of this heroes in the public's eyes no matter what angles you play here.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)your precious little audio tape has zero probative value. If it's just some random schmiuck ranting because he's getting shot at, it proves nothing.
You see, in order for that tape to be evidence, you'd need to connect the speaker to the actual orders that lead to the fire.
Do you deny that it's possible that a tear gas cannister or stun grenade could have caused the fire?
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)had operational control and who made the decision on how the assault on the cabin would go down.
You know, the people at whom he was shooting.
frylock
(34,825 posts)or not using a turn signal. or confronting a homeless guy sleeping at the bus stop. same cop, same attitude.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Context doesn't really matter--you're willing to condemn a guy who has bullets flying at him for using coarse and angry language.
Bottom line is that you're incapable of empathizing with any cop as a human being--even one in fear for his life.
frylock
(34,825 posts)I just hate those guys.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)your delicate sensibilities while getting shot at.
uppityperson
(115,678 posts)Thank you.
frylock
(34,825 posts)burn mutherfucker. we're relying on these people to protect and serve? for fucking real?!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)I'm sure you'll respond with the Queen's English.
"I say, that fellow over there is being most discourteous."
Yeah, if I had someone shooting at me, I'd probably yell something like "kill the fucker."
Note that the guys shouting "burn him" were not the ones giving orders, unless you have knowledge to the contrary.
frylock
(34,825 posts)and if you think this shit is limited to and exclusive to cop killers, and not people jay walking, pan handling, or engaging in any other minor infraction, then you're sadly fucking mistaken.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)regarding the person shooting at them.
Because, I mean, how unprofessional of them to get freaked out while having bullets flying at them.
frylock
(34,825 posts)from using angry language. but i'm done here with you. i'll let someone else take it from here, because you don't get it and never will.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)being shot at and who will likely suffer PTSD as a result.
Because, you know, fuckthepolice. Not like cops are human beings or anything.
frylock
(34,825 posts)
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)Police officers shall conduct themselves, whether on or off duty, in accordance with the Constitution of the United States, the California Constitution, and all applicable laws, ordinances and rules enacted or established pursuant to legal authority.
They are supposed to behave as professionals not just when they are marching in parades.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)them shooting back?
He waived the due process rights he shot his guns instead of surrendering.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)After saying they'd do it, they did it. You're cool with that. Again, we get it.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)You know he died from the fire instead of from a bullet wound from their guns or his.
You've already convicted the cops after bleating about how it was unfair to prejudge him a killer.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)He was either dead from gunfire and was NOT shooting back at them, in which case burning him was unnecessary OR they burned him alive. Either way, it was obviously the plan.
And I have not, ever, said he wasn't a killer or that they shouldn't assume he was. Not once.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Both of which can start a fire.
Or he could have set the fire himself as a diversion, only to be cornered and shoot himself.
Also, was the person speaking on that YouTube the police captain who made the decision as to how to proceed, or just some random cop shouting shit in the heat of battle?
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)But I trust your sources at Free Republic state otherwise.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)I forgot it's against the rules at DU to question authority.
My bad.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)the McVeigh crowd might, though.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Weird how that happened. Bloody hell.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)What was his rank? What position of authority did he have? Was he the one whomhad operational command of police at the site? When did he make that comment relative to the actual fire?
defacto7
(13,485 posts)Humanity... a virus.
An Animal is part of the structure of the planet; it takes what it needs and gives back what is left to be part of life again. A virus feeds on it's host, uses it to regenerate and continues to feed on that host till the host dies. Then the virus dies.
We are either part of the answer or we are our own killers.
Shivering Jemmy
(900 posts)Animals will extract everything they can from a resource and leave it dead just like humans. They have no special wisdom in the matter. They're just generally not organized enough to create a society that encourages and maintains very large numbers of conspecifics
defacto7
(13,485 posts)or even of science. I'm speaking in a philosophical sense of ecological balance on the planet, the parts that equalize and those that destroy. In the long view, it's the earth itself that ultimately "decides" the fate of it's constituents animal or not, but in the mean time there is the question where we fit in the schema as we go about our daily destructive habits and I claim that we are more like a virus in the wild than an animal in its habitat.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Right. So, Mafia, basically?
Not on board with that. Sorry.
Fuck this murdering fucktard. May he rot in hell.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)The longer it takes to burn, the less evidence to support a cause and effect.
Hmmm. Justice or revenge? Reason or madness? Fact or fiction? Civil or uncivilized?
We may never know.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It was a blitzkrieg set-up for the State of the Union. Yeah, that's the ticket. You see, the "false flag" drama sucked in a huge audience and then, boom, he gets o do a speech without any critical commentary because the news is all jammed up right before he starts. And then when he's done, everyone wants to know what happened to Dorner in the cabin.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Obama set up Dorner so he could give his surveillance network a test run.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2347592
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Is it Larouchies, Birchers, or some sort of long lost family of love children of the two?
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)And I'm on pain medication for a toothache. Bizarre bizarre.
JI7
(89,260 posts)against tyranny or something like that.
it all makes sense now.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)beat the poor, and work for something other than the people, you are going to have a hard time with people just believing what they say at face value.
It is right to question everything the LAPD does. Apparently they do not understand who they are suppose to help.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)sadly. In some places they have been trying to stop any photographing of the police. I think video of the police should be mandatory. All cars with cameras on. Anytime someone sees an injustice they should be able to photo it. Any police caught abusing the people should be immediately fired. Period! Just fn period!
It is so much worse for a police officer to betray the public than say just someone betraying the public. They are suppose to be who you turn to for help.
The police are suppose to be in a position of authority, yes. They should be respected and trusted. They are who you should be able to turn to for almost any kind of help. But apparently and increasingly, they are not earning these respects. We want to honor them. We want to respect them. We need to trust them. And we can't.
It's getting scary out there!
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)EastTennesseeDem
(2,675 posts)that he wanted to burn.
Take off the tin-foil hat please.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)really.
There is always a huge amount of evidence and information at a crime scene that corroborates statements and positions. Burn it up without trying to save it and no one will ever conclusively know without doubt whether we know the truth or just have to take someone's word.
That's the way to separate reality from myth. No tin hats here.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)the way they shot up unarmed "suspects" in two other vehicles. For me, that's absolute proof that they had no intention of ever giving him a trial, this was an execution by police. I'm not ok with that, and neither should anyone else be.
And I'd really appreciate it if people would quit conflating condemnation of over-zealous police with defense of Dorner. In case it's not obvious enough, I am not defending Dorner, not in any way.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Shit I've just in this thread been accused not only of siding with Dorner but somehow with Tim McVeigh and David Koresh and probably Hitler as well.
JI7
(89,260 posts)the wrong vehicle with innocent people help their case ?
uponit7771
(90,348 posts)dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)and I get the fear thing. The incompetence is there regardless of whether they went out to kill him or not, the wrongly identified vehicles that they shot up at least prove that. And their fear probably was at least part of why they went ballistic. I don't know whether the officers involved jumped the gun, or if there was a mission directive to kill (I hope we eventually find outm or if someone knows, post it here). If I think there was revenge or bloodlust contributing to the lethal force (and I do), that's a supposition on my part, though the video in the OP might back up that line of thinking.
Even if it had been him in those vehicles, they should have had to do due diligence not only to verify it was him, but also that their only choice was to kill him. It doesn't look to me like they did that.
Nay
(12,051 posts)surfer guy.
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)uponit7771
(90,348 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)it seems an awful lot of Californians agree with you too.
jsr
(7,712 posts)JI7
(89,260 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)
nvme
(860 posts)When this guy Allegedly murders the Daughter of the guy who unsuccessfully defended you in an early dismissal hearing you crossing a line. I dont excuse his actions-they are sickening. When he shots 2 police officers it was troubling. When he kidnaps a couple and stays in their house it ok right? Or when he shoots one park ranger and kills the other thats acceptable. He was carrying around A 50 caliber sniper rifle. If he does all that and expect stay well is unrealistic.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)I have no sympathy for the murderer but there is a question of process. Right now it appears that they torched the place in order to avoid having to wait it out. On the other hand I don't think he planned to come out alive or he would have surrendered (I'm assuming they gave him that chance, but it's unclear). So people probably say "what's the difference?" Burn him or shoot him. Burning him seemed safer and more expedient obviously.
I agree with those who say this is not how these things should be handled, but when you have a guy with a high-powered rifle that can control an area for a mile or more...possibly for days...still the fire bombing method used is like what they do in a war zone. Not a great precedent. I wonder if this will stimulate weapons sales even more...
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)They weren't going to let it get dark.
Unlike the usual "guy holed up with guns" standoff, this particular one is pretty good at escape and evasion. He was literally a one man army.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)I guess it will be further debated what they might have done. He did seem determined not to surrender, if the story is correct. It seems they had him cornered and surrounded and then they just fire-bombed him. But we do that all the time in Iraq and Afghanistan, so I guess it's just another option anywhere now. It does need to be questioned. I don't understand why they couldn't use helicopters either. Was he really controlling the situation with his guns--and what kind of arsenal was it really?
I thought it went this way--they started tearing down the front wall with the armored vehicle and when he didn't run out the back right away, they torched it.
One man army -- seems like hype. But I guess that's splitting hairs when you're talking about a cold hearted killer on a rampage.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)His record will remain as clean as those that burned the cabin down around him without knowing if he was dead or alive (or in fact even the man they were looking for).
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Was Adam Lanza a murderer? I think so.
I agree there are questions about how this was done. But I think I can call him a murderer safely.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And Adam Lanza s also presumed.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)fine with me. And so can anyone dealing with it legally.
And I would have preferred it went to trial. But when you're dealing with insanity, things aren't always so neat IMO. Which in no way implies that I mean they handled it flawlessly or admirably.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)The testimony of the kickee, his mental status.
That said, sorry if I will not join people in calling somebody not convicted murdered. Hell, the Riverside Sheriffs did not today either. Tricky phrase, presumed.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)I don't think it matters so much. If I thought there was a shred of doubt, I wouldn't have called him a murderer. Probably would just say suspect. But I will call him a murderer if I think that's what he is.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And I will add one more thing...chickens are indeed coming home to roost.
I make a point of not feeding them.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)but will look out for chicken sh*t.
Shivering Jemmy
(900 posts)Just not a convicted murderer.
His ontological status is quite independent of his legal status.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If I walk up to you on the street, point a gun at you, demand your wallet, and then knock you down to the sidewalk, then you will get up and wonder if I am a mugger.
Do I have that right?
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)but I will still call him (and Lanza) murderers, mass murderers.
And I call Dorner's death a suicide. (If what we have been told up to now is true. If not I will revise that).
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And I missed it?
countryjake
(8,554 posts)of a vast mountainous region, after a wild, tragic and frightening afternoon in which one of their own was shot and killed, another wounded; not to mention that two game wardens were fired on after they made a traffic stop up at the ski resort; two maids were surprised and tied up in a cabin they'd come to clean and their vehicle was stolen; another man was carjacked and his truck also taken...and it was getting dark.
I live in a fairly large county, also mountainous, and I haven't any doubt that my own Co. Sheriffs would sound and behave in much the same way as what you can hear in that video...mayhem had ensued in San Bernardino County throughout the day, they had their man cornered, a cold night was coming on, so they wrapped it up.
I am not surprised that this is what happened, because I expected something of the sort to finally end the entire affair, but yes, I am disgusted by it, tho not any more disgusted than I am by the havoc that the ex-cop himself wreaked upon the area.
EastKYLiberal
(429 posts)They didn't want to sit around that cabin for days. Smoking him out was the best option.
Yes, I know the LAPD is corrupt and some were out for blood...
But if I ever find myself surrounded by dozens or hundreds of armed men in uniform I'm going to do whatever they say. Piss running constantly down my leg.
longship
(40,416 posts)It wasn't even LA county. These guys were from San Bernardino county and way out of LA jurisdiction.
I don't know why everybody presumes that the LAPD can go anywhere they want in SoCal. But I guess it's inevitable that people make that mistake.
Big Bear is miles from LA.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)he was even the driver mean surrender would be tricky, at the best and nearly impossible.
There seems to be evidence to suggest that the outcome was sought.
Perhaps more of a concern is it is so difficult to ever discuss process and living out our ideals because there is a society wide flaw that fixates on individuals to the point that systems and processes can't even be questioned without being aggressively painted as sympathy or even support for a criminal or a terrorist or a personal attack on a favored politician or party or support for the opposition.
By the same token, legitimate guilt is always individual as well. The barrel is fine and dandy no matter how many rotten apples come out of it, it must be the damn apples.
I also think we have been herded or tricked into a silly place due to Reagan and the TeaPubliKlans at least rhetorically (in actuality, they tend to expand government) as the "government is the problem" party because in response we have become the "government is good and the solution" party to the point we cannot drain any swamps or fight corruption because such things reduce trust of government. Transparency cannot be demanded because it may imply a lack of dependability and credibility. We sure as hell cannot question systems and institutions (unless the rich have questions too then fire away and cut taxes on high earners while you do it).
OwnedByCats
(805 posts)I don't know if anyone has said what I'm about to say because I haven't read all the way through so I apologize if so.
First of all, I worry about cops playing judge, jury and executioner and someone being denied their due process of law.
However having said that - Dorner did say he would not be taken alive and predicted he would not be alive much longer. I assumed that meant he would either commit suicide or be shot by cops. If he had wanted to surrender to spare his life he could have. However I think most likely if he had walked out of that cabin, armed or not, they would have shot him.
Perhaps the cops didn't feel like they had any other alternative. They had lost one of their own and another was wounded and knowing that Dorner was an ex cop and was also in the military before that, he had tremendous knowledge on tactics and survival which made him much more dangerous. Knowing that he had this huge advantage that most people in this situation do not have, they didn't want to take a chance on anyone else getting hurt or killed.
But on the other hand, I wasn't there and have no first hand knowledge of what occured and I probably shouldn't speculate further until more info comes out.
mn9driver
(4,428 posts)There was nothing that forced him to continue shooting at the police once he was surrounded and had no hope of escape. Nothing that forced him to apparently shoot himself rather than exit the cabin once it was on fire.
If he tried to surrender and wasn't allowed to, I've seen no evidence of it. He made it clear in his manifesto that he had no intention of being captured alive. What was said in the video seemed to be a very human reaction to a crazy and scary situation.
Myrina
(12,296 posts)Not implying parallels, just askin' ...
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)He had just killed another guy who gave him the option of a peaceful surrender earlier in the day. Not sure how many chances he needs.
Zax2me
(2,515 posts)The serial killer's spree is over.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)Livluvgrow
(377 posts)use their armored vehicles that we have all paid for? Maybe they could have better protected themselves and captured him instead. Justice would have been served trial could have been conducted and he could then have agonized in a cell for a very long time
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I'm not familiar with their capabilities, but these vehicles have some sort of robotic arms on them for applying handcuffs?
Livluvgrow
(377 posts)I offer a solution all you have is a snide rebuttal. Hmm well 2 more officers would probably still be alive for one for two besides maybe a wall being knocked down somebody would still have their cabin and the tax payers of Ca would not be on the hook for yet more payouts. Se I at least offer a sounder possibility for a solution you have a snide remark. Good day.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)One wonders how many of those who are untroubled with the decision to burn down the cabin with Dorner inside would be equally untroubled had a drone been deployed to shoot a hellfire missile into the cabin? Might be a topic for a different thread.
I have no problem with law enforcement shooting back and employing lethal force and there is no dis pare over Dorner's demise but I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the "burn him out" tactic that was employed. There was no way that law enforcement could determine with 100% certainty that there were no other people inside that cabin and had there been, the concept of "collateral damage" in the context of domestic law enforcement actions is totally unacceptable.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)You can, however, surrender to police. Given the opportunity to do so earlier in the day, Dorner killed one.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)So you would be opposed to using a drone then? But burning down the structure was ok? Just want to be clear.
Had a hostage been tied up in the basement, do you think they would have had the chance to surrender to the fire? 
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The cause of the fire, by the way, was... what?
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)According to the audio that has been posted it's pretty clear that it was intentionally set by law enforcement, unless you think they were just kidding when they said to go ahead with the burn that they had discussed and then noted shortly thereafter that they had a fire.......
Again, had there been a hostage that law enforcement was unaware of, could they have surrendered to the fire?
Just out of curiosity, what's the time limit on negotiating a surrender? If the individual doesn't surrender immediately, then just say, "screw it, send in a drone!"?
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)and write a manifesto bragging about the skills and tools you have to keep cops at bay...
there's pretty much no choice other than to burn that fucker down, and I'm glad they did.
Disagree? OK...let's put a badge on YOU and see how much YOU'D like to approach the cabin to effect
arrest on a trained killer intent on not being taken alive, when you have no idea what weapons or
explosives he had with him.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Anytime police have to deal with someone who is believed to be armed and dangerous - just firebomb them. If it's too dangerous to get close enough to do the job, just call in a drone strike.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Excuse me while I laugh at you for a while.
HE HAD JUST SHOT TWO COPS AND KILLED ONE OF THEM.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Is that better?
After all, using armed drones would decrease the risk to LEO's, and a Hellfire missile is a good way to kill the sonofabitch.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)Since, as you indicated, Dorner had a prior history of holding several people hostage and as you said, authorities has no idea what weapons or explosives he had with him, how exactly were they able to determine with 100% certainty that there were no other people in the cabin, prior to torching it?
I'd disagree that they had no other choice than to "burn that fucker down". There are reasonable levels of response, to insure that innocents are not endangered and I think this one may have gone over the line.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Maybe they did know he was the only one in the cabin.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)How could they have known for sure? Honest question, ...just tell us how they could know for sure that there was not anyone else in the cabin?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)So obviously I have no idea. I suspect they did know he was alone, however, so I am fine with turning it and him to a cinder.
Sorry if you don't like that.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)I just asked how could they know for sure? Because Dorner didn't make any mention of having a hostage? It's entirely likely that they "thought" or "presumed" that he was alone, which is a lot different from "knowing" that he was alone.
If they were wrong in that presumption, would you have been fine with them turning a hostage into a cinder?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)OF COURSE I wouldn't have been fine with that. I don't live in the ex post world, however.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)So the policy is sound as long as the outcome is Ok? Got it.
Would the same apply to using a drone instead of just torching the place?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)You weren't there, I wasn't there, and if they did know for sure he was alone, you still wouldn't be convinced, so next topic.
onenote
(42,737 posts)They may well have known by various means and to a high degree of certainty that he was the only one there.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)But I'm skeptical how thermal imaging would be able to show what was in a basement. They knew the cabin had a basement, which is in fact where it's been reported they found him. I'm also a little skeptical that a rural sheriff's department would have such equipment.
onenote
(42,737 posts)My understanding is that Dorner spent several days in a cabin that he broke into and eventually left on Tuesday after tying up a pair of cleaning women who came to the cabin. He stole a car at that cabin and after crashing that vehicle, he carjacked a pickup truck and took off, almost immediately engaging in a gunfight with warden's that encountered the truck. He then abandoned the truck and broke into another cabin. When deputies approached that cabin, he shot and killed one and wounded another. The owner of the cabin indicated that they knew of no reason that anyone would have been in the cabin at the time this was going down. The guy that was carjacked didn't see anyone with Dorner nor did the wardens that engaged in a gunfight with him. So to the extent some have speculated that he might have had a hostage, where did that hostage come from?
There were eyewitnesses to a lot of his movements leading up to his holing up in that cabin and none indicate that anyone else was there.
As for the idea that it might have been a homeless person, that's just grasping at straws. I've seen nothing to suggest that the cabin was routinely broken into by homeless persons. Moreover, there was one main cabin (the one Dorner was in) and five smaller cabins; its far more likely that a homeless person, hoping simply to get out of the elements, would pick one of the smaller cabins out back to break into rather than the main cabin where someone was more likely to show up.
In short, if there is any reasonable basis for suspecting that anyone else was in that cabin, I have yet to see it.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)Did someone actually see him go into the cabin that was eventually burned? I have not heard of any eye witness reports that said someone watched him go into the cabin alone. FWIW, I'm not suggesting that it was likely that there was another person in the cabin but given the fact that he had previously taken hostages and that he knew he was being pursued, I don't think that it's outside the realm of possibility that he could have taken another hostage. If there was a .0001% chance of another person being in that cabin when the cops decided to torch the place, then it wa an unacceptable risk. If you have a link to something that documents how the authorities where 100% sure that he was alone, then by all means share it.
As far as the likelihood of a homeless person being in the cabin, I have no idea. I do know that in the area that I live in, it's not at all uncommon for vacant cabins and cottages to be broken into, although usually not by the homeless. It's usually either druggies that are looking for some quick stuff to steal or else high school kids that are looking for a place to get it on. We have a rustic waterfront cabin located on a river in a remote area and finally gave up locking it because it was broken into so many times, usually by kids looking for a place to party.
onenote
(42,737 posts)shot at it. It was found outside the cabin. I'm not sure, but it was my understanding that the wardens that pursued the truck did see him exit the truck and head to the cabin. The person in the cabin shot and killed one sherriff that approached it.
As for the hostage claim -- when and where did this hostage come from. He had not been to that cabin before he broke into it after carjacking the truck; it was a very short period of time between the carjacking and his reaching the cabin. And we know he didn't have a hostage with him when he carjacked the truck and no one saw anyone in the truck with him. I don't think there is even a .0001% chance that he had a hostage.
As for kids or others in the cabin -- my understanding is that the police had spoken to the owner of the cabin and I suspect that they had a pretty good idea whether there was any real likelihood of anyone being in the cabin.
My point is that while nothing is ever one hundred percent certain, there was good reason for the police not to "wait out" Dorner as some have suggested. You never want the decisions to be put in the hand of the bad guy (and, yes, he was a bad guy). It is likely that he could have holed up in that cabin for quite some time. Trying to secure the cabin for a lengthy without putting more people at significant risk of being shot while trying to maintain a security perimeter that wasn't so porous as create a signficant risk that he might escape would be difficult if not impossible. The longer he was allowed to stay in the cabin, the greater the risk that he might booby trap the place. Also you alway want to be the one to decide when the fight starts -- waiting it out meant a greater risk that he might come out guns blazing, putting more people in harm's way.
I don't know if he killed himself before the fire started or not. And neither does anyone else posting about this. We may never know.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If a fighter had intercepted one of the planes on the way to the WTC, would you have believed it appropriate to shoot it down?
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)The situations are hardly parallel. Are you suggesting that a lone gunman trapped in a cabin had the potential to kill thousands of people if they had not set the cabin on fire?
Please, let's not be silly with the false equivalencies.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)You see, it's worth killing a couple of civilians and kids, as long as you make sure that the bad guy can't kill anybody else.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2366183
Welcome to bizarro-land
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)hence my concern about the potential for the term "collateral damage" becoming an acceptable idea, as related to domestic law enforcement actions.
lpbk2713
(42,766 posts)
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)Apparently, there were already enough torches.
fried eggs
(910 posts)And if it wasn't, will they admit it if Dorner doesn't come forward on his own?
Dpm12
(512 posts)something from Frankenstein
liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)The issue is not whether or not Dorner deserved to die. The issue is, do we want police forces who are vengeful assholes? Is it wrong to want the people who are entrusted to keep law and order to be professional, and just a tad above the behavior of the worst savage criminals? They're human like the rest of us, but with greater responsibility and more weaponry (well, in some cases), sworn to uphold the law. This is not okay. That anyone would excuse this type of ugly behavior from our police is pretty disturbing.
Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)I'm just appalled at the utter bloodlust exhibited on this thread and the willingness to let PD be judge, jury, and executioner. Fuck justice, fuck due process. Our citizens and PD are supposed to be BETTER than that.
graywarrior
(59,440 posts) nc4bo
(17,651 posts)This is how I feel also.
frylock
(34,825 posts)
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)They should have been patient, established the perimeter, and waited him out.
Instead, they went in, started knocking walls of the cabin down, used those incendiary teargas canisters, and started a fire that could have spread to other peoples' houses.
On top of that, there were those two Latina women that were mistaken for Dorner, got wounded, nearly killed, got their truck shot full of holes. Oops.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Wise words.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)wasserman
(14 posts)Dead or alive they burned him good.
jsr
(7,712 posts)It served as a warning to Dorner wannabes.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Psychotic people don't heed warnings.
(Or maybe you mean sarcasm)
Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
frylock
(34,825 posts)utterly disgusting.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)RetroGamer1971
(177 posts)Coyotl
(15,262 posts)
damnedifIknow
(3,183 posts)some people are saying there was no other alternative than to burn him alive and I have to emphatically disagree. I feel all options should have been considered before a knee jerk reaction such as this. Yes he was a bad guy but do we now perform street justice on the spot?
