people and responds to the cops by firing at them poses a pretty imminent threat.

He was a threat and IMO got exactly what he deserved.

I can't say whether with darkness coming on if the commander on scene felt that nightfall would change that. With the cabin surrounded and night-vision technology available it seems questionable.

IMO, society didn't get what it deserved. Death by cop is undesirable, destruction of property is undesirable if it can be avoided. We'll never know if it could have been avoided because the police decided to launch devices into the building that
according to recorded conversation were part of a plan to burn the building down.

we should burn ALL the mutherfuckers out.

He made it very clear that he had not intention of being taken alive by his actions and his manifesto.

that he wouldn't be.

contacted a lawyer, media personell, and any number of people to escort him to any police station, didn't have to be an LAPD station, could have been any police dept. station, and surrendered himself with all the witness's present.
Instead, he CHOSE the course of action, he CHOSE not to surrender, he CHOSE to shoot it out with police and in the process, he killed 2 police officers and 2 civilians.
Dorner is responsible for Dorner being killed.

As far as what those LAPD officers did to the innocent civilians, those officers should be punished severely and Los Angeles should pay a hefty settlement.

Certainly he is responsible. But that doesn't negate the proven fact that the authorities were never going to let him walk out alive. You really think that you can make me believe that the authorities would give a shit about the people with him? Hell, they didn't give a shit about shooting up people that weren't with him. There were two women in that truck! What if it been Dorner and an attorney going to turn himself in?

They wanted to kill the cop killer, they wanted to kill him bad and they did!

They were going to shoot or kill him in the police station? C'mon, be realistic, with all the intense scrutiny on this incident, the police wouldn't dare try anything. Especially with all the witness's saying that he surrendered himself to the proper authorities.

you and I both know that. Like I said, there were two women in that truck. There were witnesses. It didn't stop anyone from shooting up the truck nor the other car they ambushed. Those two women wern't shooting at the police when they were fired upon, their vehicle just vaguely fit the description. There was no attempt to cut them off, pull them over or order them out of the car. I believe it was something like 60 bullets that were fired into the truck from behind. That alone shows what law enforcement's intent was.

Judge, jury and executioner is the role law enforcement played in this tragedy and that makes me uncomfortable in a country where I was taught that people are supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law

You're telling me that a man as resourceful as Dorner was couldn't figure out a way to make it to a police station?
If he made it his intention of surrendering himself and with a lawyer and media personel in tow, the police wouldn't dare try to anything, especially if he just showed up unannounced with an entourage of witness's.
It really doesn't matter, Dorner had NO INTENTION of giving up, his intention was to kill as many of the people listed on his manifesto as he could before they took him down.

I think if he were really resourceful or smart, he would have killed many more than he did. I'm sure he had no intention of giving up. However, I'm just as certain that the authorities were never going to allow it either.

on edit.

you know, it's sad that I don't know what is worse. Someone driven by perhaps mental illness and feeling so much dispair and hopelessness that their life or anyone else's life any longer has value and commits such an atrocity or by those who are driven to kill by vengence.

but if he had contacted a lawyer and the media to accompany him to a police station of his choosing, and if they had hidden him until they arrived at the station, then he would have been arrested and would have his day in court.

Instead, he CHOSE to go out in a, pardon the pun, blaze of glory while trying to take as many officers with him as he could.

Police forces are NOT judge, jury and executioner, and we would be making the mistake of the millenium to grant them such powers.

He was surrounded, all they had to do was cut off power & water, give him the opportunity to surrender.

I guess they weren't patient enough for that - burners were quicker...

he had multiple chances to do so after murdering his first victim.

Kind of sad to lose the cabin though.

That solution is preferable to the one Law Enforcement chose yesterday,

Really not that hard to wait him out. The guy still needed to eat and drink.

is slang for tear gas? It's because the tear gas burns the mucous membrane, the eyes and the nose, not because it's used to start fires.

Some of them are "cold", specifically, the ones intended to be used indoors.

The ones the LAPD used on Dorner are "hot" - they release CS gas pyrotechnically, and should not be used indoors where they have a tendency to start fires. They literally burn, and it looks like these cannisters burned that cabin down. And that probably has something to do with the nickname "burner".

I just get a little irritated at people here who think that the word burner means that the police fired cannisters that were designed to start fires.

Maybe they didn't have the other variety on hand, for whatever reason. Or maybe they didn't expect the cabin to go up as readily as it did. I don't know.

FBI was on the scene, but I'm going from what I heard from the recordings of the police radio traffic, which sounded like LAPD to me. "Burners are in place." "Burn the motherfucker!" That sort of thing.

(Can't believe how many times I've posted that.)

And as RobinLynne pointed out, LAPD wasn't even there.

The question is whether the law enforcement on-scene deliberately used the incendiary properties of their teargas canisters. I think it likely.

along with the U.S Marshals Service and the FBI were there. It was probably a joint decision and operation.

That's the court's job.

Yes, there was very strong evidence that Dorner was the killer, but until he had his day in court, he was innocent until proven guilty. I know it sucks to hear that, but that's how our justice system works.

As with every suspect for every crime, the police had the responsibility to take Dorner alive, if possible. They chose not to wait him out and let him surrender peacefully, but instead attacked the structure with incendiary tear gas.

he refused, he kept shooting at anything that moved, he shot himself instead of leaving the cabin.

All we know is that there is a charred body that has yet to be identified.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Justice should be served.

All they needed to do was wait him out.

The guy with the short straw gets to go check?

the guy who's either two days away from retirement or the recent widower taking care of 6 foster kids.

Don't you watch movies man.

booby trapping seems exceedingly far fetched given the circumstances and time line. Waiting a few hours or few days hardly seems as onerous as you're trying to make it.

Do they not have cameras on them?

So you can bet your petunias that if there are folks among us at DU who feel death without a jury is acceptable that law enforcement was not going to lose sleep if they took Dorner dead.

I can see nothing but good and evil, black and white...

if he is dead

But if he will not surrender, then what?

It may have been Dorner who torched it and then shot himself.

the way they were talking about burning. They had the armored vehicle already bashing walls. He didn't come out so they went to Plan B. "Burn"... and then he shot himself.

on the modus operandi...

Sad scenario.

It was posted here several times yesterday.

video of it.

WHO KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED?

Oh, wait...

Of course it is clear, CNN has footage which I heard myself of officers yelling to "torch him" just moments before they shot the canisters into the cabin. How much clearer does it need to be? The spokesman for the police said they did not torch the cabin on purpose, which is another way of saying, they did in fact torch the cabin just not intentionally.

The police played judge, jury, and executioner. The police murdered Dorner.

as it seems to be modus operandi for our enforcement agencies, but for an organization that is already considered racist, brutal, sexist and corrupt by many, saying, "Let's burn that motherfucker down", etc was an extremely poor choice of words. People are excusing it, but these are trained law enforcement officers who should damn well know better.

Do you have a link for that?

speaking of burning the MF out and of the "burn plan". If I feel better later I will see if I can dig up the links for you.

Cops Torch Cabin Where Christopher Dorner Was Held Up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101798582


Here's video of police shouting "burn that motherfucker" and "burn him out" as Dorner was trapped.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364793

police had a pretty legitimate reason for torching that cabin

"Legitimate" is one of those frequently misused words. It's like "literally," used in a construction like "She literally chewed my head off."

--imm

They also had a legitimate reason to sit tight and wait him out.

I bet those cops in fullerton had a pretty legitimate reason to kill that homeless guy too, right sport?

That was obvious when the cops were opening fire on innocent people thinking it was him. Is it wrong? Well if he's firing at police, then it's not wrong IMO. But the innocent people who were shot were just going about their business and obviously weren't firing at cops.

Which they will answer to.

They DID have the justification to execute him because they were dealing with a random mass murderer.

But Good God--they looked like Reno 911 re. those poor women who got shot...

I agree that he was a sick murderer and I also agree that LAPD wanted him silenced, not captured. I see nothing heroic in his actions, I see even less heroism on the part of the LAPD.

Big Bear is in San Bernadino County and is miles from LA. LAPD have no jurisdiction there.

These guys were local/county LE, not LAPD.

You may be correct, but I think LE always covers for its own.

It was the San Bernardino Sheriff's Dept,. in conjunction with the U.S. Marshal's Service and FBI, that made to the decision for the tactical op.

is full of immoral police departments....better?

This guy shot two cops that day.

Now, would I have set fire to the cabin? No!! But I wasn't there and know nothing about the situation. And neither was anybody else on this forum. He could have planted booby traps, for example.

Plus, there is circumstantial evidence that he shot himself before the fire got going, according to reports.

I have no idea why they chose to set the cabin on fire, or even if they did it deliberately. The info is a bit fuzzy.

Do I wish they hadn't burned the place down? You betcha! But I wasn't standing there where I could influence the decision.

But these questions should be asked in the coming days, which I guess is kind of what your post is saying. I would support that.

the use of deadly force being appropriate. We don't yet know if he was firing on LE from the cabin. Besides, I have no problem with the police simply resorting to old siege warfare tactics. The cabin was surrounded, he wasn't going to escape...starve him out or let him shoot himself. Had he come out firing, deadly force would have been appropriate, but I have a problem with the bullying tactics of our police, our military and our government. We have more weapons, more bombs, more drones and we are happy to use them. I have a real problem with the LAPD opening fire on two women who were merely delivering newspapers.

Was he a threat? Well, he had been but I don't know what real threat he presented trapped in a cabin and we'll never know what might have come out in a trial will we? IMHO there was never any intention of taking him alive and that doesn't speak well of our LE or our own national morality.

Do you mean other than the two shot police officers?

To say nothing of the other murders.

If this guy doesn't surrender, and keeps shooting at cops, he's going to get himself killed. Plain and simple.

That's what happened from all reports at the scene at the time. We even have a DUer up there who was posting yesterday afternoon about it as it went down. I was following two threads about it.

All of us on those threads agreed that Dorner would not be coming out of this alive.

Plus, there is circumstantial evidence that he shot himself before the fire got going.

But I do wish they hadn't set the cabin on fire. I can't see that it was necessary.

This was the second cabin he broke into. I'm not saying he could have been taken alive...I am just saying I don't believe the police had any intention of doing so. The way it played out, tearing down the cabin walls, using tear gas and then burning down the cabin.... You're absolutely correct in wishing they hadn't done that...but what better way to destroy any evidence he might have had that his accusations were true...Which is NOT to say I think that would justify his killing spree...it doesn't.

Had the police settled in for a siege he could have fired all the rounds he wanted, without injuring anyone.

How cavalierly all of you accept the death of another human being.

He, above all people, knew what shooting at LE would get him. He knew where this would end.

Of course, I regret his life being taken. I am not a heartless bastard. But being taken alive was a choice he could have made. He didn't.

Look, Dorner was clearly deranged. And, I am not as certain as you that Dorner believed he had any chance of being taken alive.

I apologize, I did not mean to imply you are heartless. I am simply frustrated with a society that seems to think force is always the answer....no wonder the NRA thinks they can continue being as absurd about gun violence as they are.

started this whole tragic incident by murdering 2 innocent people, shooting 2 Riverside police officers, killing one, car jackings, shooting at Fish and Game Wardens, shooting 2 SBCSD deputies, killing one and then exchanging gunfire with the officers surrounding the cabin and refusing to give up.
This whole incident really had only one ending and Dorner had no intention of it ending any other way.