.. and at the same time abhor and condemn murderous violence on the part of Dorner as well?

if only that were happening. I see very few people doing that.

So were alot of others, btw

Obviously I did not mean all DUers, as I don't count myself among them. But prior to yesterday we saw a number of people justifying Dorner's murder spree because they liked what they read in his manifesto. Last night and today I've seen a great deal of outrage over his death but not about those he killed.

the LAPD has managed to build for themselves, thats overcoming common sense.

That's why he justified his actions as he did. He knew how much the LAPD is hated and saw that as a way to incur sympathy for his actions.

In fact I think he will be copied, I think he's pioneered something new. Not sure what to call it.

with grievances (some which may have been legitimate) and that LAPD has a longstanding history of corruption and brutality towards the community? I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Dorner, in my estimation, was deserving of the most severe punishment available under the law had he been captured and brought to trial. However, that does not mean that abuses by the LA law enforcement personnel should be excused or winked at because they wear blue. Not all who wear the uniform are "the good guys" anymore than all identified "bad guys" are guilty.

both are correct. I wish more people stated their views as you do.

Yet you repeatedly say there are.

You have repeatedly done so. You specifically have. You said he was perfectly fine until the LAPD pushed him over the edge, that they "caused the whole thing." If that isn't a defense, what is it?

I'd give you one. Anyway:

He had to have known what the outcome would be?

Was he crazy? Just really all that angry? Did he really feel he had been treated unjustly?

Was he a phony?

Seems like it was a pretty stupid way to air his grievances, but why did he choose it? For the same reason that he met with failure in other areas of his life?

I agree that he should not have killed anyone. But why did he? Or was he just irrational?

Do you have an opinion on this? Do you care? Or is it enough for you just to dismiss him as evil?

I'm curious about why you care about this enough to post.

I've seen people defend all kinds of crazy things on the internet. Why does this cause you to react the way you do?

I kind of stayed away from the topic because I felt that less attention paid to it was better, but some seemed to want to put this guy in the spotlight. Why do you suppose that is?

actually justifying his killings. I saw a lot of people talking about the LAPD (well, not just the LAPD) and their actions and reactions to the events that unfolded. I saw a few people trying to understand what caused such a thing to happen in the first place. And I saw a lot of vitriol towards those people. But not one person that I saw felt he was excused for his acts.

this to happen. (except for his mental health which we do not know about). You interpret that as jusitfying a killing spree.
it IS NOT. This is your perception, as opposed to reality. I think that is what people are trying to tell you.

shows you bought into his con. LAPD corruption didn't cause his murder spree. It didn't even trigger it. He left the LAPD in 2009 but started killing only last week, shortly after being passed over for promotion in the navy and losing his commission. He wrote a manifesto talking about police corruption to incur sympathy from the public--who are rightfully angry with the LAPD. He didn't target the military because no one would have bought into that argument.

Dorner caused the murder spree. No one is responsible for his actions but himself.

confirming that what Dormer wrote tends to happen in the LAPD. even though they want no association whatsoever with DOrner.

He is a murderer. fact. What he wrote is likely true, and the story he told is likely true. One does not preclude the other.

You don't have to like him to admit what happened. it is not hero vs villain as some here would have it.

Once he killed the young couple, he was a murderer. there is no doubt about that.

But if things are happening that drive people over the edge, and they continue to happen, what do you think the result will be?

is going to go out an kill people, and their murders are understandable because they were driven "over the edge"? And the fact the spree coincided with his being passed up for promotion by the military is irrelevant?

People who go over the edge were never on stable ground to begin with. That is a function of his own psychological instability. Thousands of people have been in Dorner's position and not resorted to murder.

in different ways. people shoot coworkers, spouses, people commit suicide. people go into therapy. eople start new lives.
People can be, and are, pushed over the edge. What they do at that point depends on many many factors.


hunger, rape, injustice, so many things can take people over the edge. All accounts say he was always a happy and mellow person until this 5 year trial. I dont know anything about him.

was he a happy mellow person. Mellow people don't do things like this. The notion is absurd.

not one with a scowl.

He was a nice quite guy. BTK was a model citizen. A great neighbor. Honestly. Every psychopath is a nice quite guy until he gets his hands on weapons and starts killing people.

Why do you suppose he was twice passed over for promotion in the navy? Seems to me they figured out the guy wasn't right in the head.

No. the serial killers are generally loners. quiet. This guy was happy and boisterous according to the accounts on tv.

I dont know anything about him one way or another. only what the tv says. Just that the evidence out, so far, is that he was a happy person.

There are stories that he found $8,000 and returned it. and Stories of being good natured. no stories of any sort of violence. or of being irrational, moody, whatever. (and being irrational or moody does not mena you will kill people)

No, he doesnt sound like the "typical serial killer".

so obviously you and his friends didn't know him.

He is most definitely a murderer.

really? Cold blooded is merely a determinate of the demeanor of the person at the time. It doesn't say anything about the severity of the murder. I would think snipers would be unusually calm. They are trained to be that way. Dorner, however, was not a trained sniper.

Even if everything Dorner said was true, it would NEVER justify killing a human being.

else. That is your fantasy. I think this guy probably went through 5 years of living hell. like someone being raped repeatedly. like living in a war.
like a kafka novel. imagine if ti si true that in his trial, 2 of the people judging were friends of the persons he was accusing. (I don't know if it is true or not.)

That does not excuse anything. nor does saying "he is mentally ill., when you just don't know.


A hungry person might kill someone who is throwing away food, when they get desperate enough. That does not EXCUSE murder. but it does tell you that if you people are starving, violence may ensue.

edited to spell check.

He was a nice, mellow guy until 5 years of LAPD trial. All it tells me is that you've bought into his con, the very point I raised in the OP. He put out a manifesto to persuade the public to have sympathy for him, and he convinced you. You specifically said the LAPD "caused all of this."

The situation that happened over 5 years probably caused his actions. And it looks like a terrible injustice happened at that trial.
THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE MURDER to anyone.

psych 101.

There is a huge difference between looking to see why it is common for abused boys to become abusers, which is important to learn, and saying "he had the right to murder because he was abused".

two different worlds of thought. You are interpreting/projecting, very incorrectly.

the explanation is far more likely to reside in his childhood than five years ago?

don't know about his childhood.
I do know that the 20 or so minutes I have spent in Court over the past year watching a judge rule in seconds without finding out the truth first (because the Judge is doing 100 hearings per day and she only has 2-3 minutes to decide my Mother's future) have caused months and months of pain.
I will never hurt anyone. And my court case is quite different. but watching injustice in Court is really hard to do. Things you witness can change you.

not there is bothering you.

I hate murder. I hate guns, I hate the death penalty, and I oppose murder of all kinds.
That's really it. I don't like seeing anyone sympathize with someone who goes around murdering people. I don't particularly like police, but I don't hate them either. I don't assume they are liars or corrupt without evidence. I happen to live in a city (Minneapolis) with a really shitty police force, whereas the one in the neighboring city (St. Paul) is entirely different, not without corruption and screw ups, but not as bad as Minneapolis' force. Certainly there is plenty of evidence of corruption in the LAPD, but I don't see that as a "cause," proximate or otherwise, of Dorner's murder spree. As you note, it was five years ago. He began killing last week, shortly after being denied promotion by the navy and losing his commission. I think he deliberately played the public with his manifesto. Did he have legitimate grievances with the LAPD, probably. That's a reason for a law suit, not a murder spree.

but I would like the situation that happened, if true, to be addressed. just as I would like Cheney investigated and prosecuted. I don't like injustice.
I also do not like violence, guns, or murder!

I don't think that would hold up in a court of law.

and I provided multiple links in this thread. Since the post is about DU responses to Dorner, why should it be based on something other than DU posts?

I wasn't aware the criteria for posting on this site required holding up in a court of law. That's a new one.

Travel in peace, my friend.

You said:
[font size=3 color=firebrick]"But prior to yesterday we saw a number of people justifying Dorner's murder spree" [/font]

I was here yesterday,
and I don't recall a single post "justifying Dorner's murder spree".

Perhaps you can post some links to support your claim?

Where are the links?

you'd gossip rather than asking me directly. There are links throughout this thread. Try reading.

I'm waiting for those links also.

I think the more likely scenario, is not a single poster was justifying anything.

There are just a few that are saying that a percieved ideological opponent was.

Games.

One person compared Dorner to Che Guevara. I took particular exception to that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220398

This entire meta thread dealt with the issue: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220366

Then there is the guy who claimed Obama staged the whole Doner thing (I guess like he supposedly staged Sandyhook) to justify spying on Americans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2347592\

I am unhappy with the way this played out for a number of reasons, none of which has anything to do with sympathy for Dorner.

there's maybe 4-5 people that are completely siding with dorner, AT BEST.

to this OP. Obviously others have seen it as well.

I'm with you - I'm fresh out of sympathy for Dorner - murdering innocent people has that effect on me.

But the LAPD has also behaved badly. They basically executed Dorner without a trial, probably as much for his exposure of their continued corruption, racism and oppression, as for his murders of LAPD officers.

which of course does not excuse the murderous actions of Dorner.

It is entirely unrelated to his murders. He invoked outrage over the LAPD to incur sympathy from the public. His murder spree was preceded by his second denial for promotion by the navy, which meant he was out of the service. But he didn't rail on against corruption in the military because no one would have believed it. He chose the LAPD as a convenient excuse for his murderous rage. That is it.

Think about it. He left the LAPD in 2009. He only just started his spree last week. The trigger event was being passed over for promotion and losing his naval commission.

inside the LAPD.

Instead my point is that it is unrelated.

But now that I do understand your point, I disagree. It seems to me, his release from the LAPD over his breaking from the "Good Ole Boy Network" has been the driving force of his rage and violence regardless of the timing. If he were simply a murderer out to kill randomly he would have killed the people whom he stole the car from rather than leaving them unharmed and tied up. The evidence points to him having targeted rage not random violence, and therefore the two issues are teid together.

He collected resentment and outrage. But that does not mean the legitimate issue of police corruption explains his actions.

but it does not mean that Dorner did not do it because of that reason. Who knows what mix of thoughts go on in someone's mind? He obviously was harboring rage which he would not let go of, why he did what he did, when he did, can only be speculated.

Peace out!

He lost his case before the LAPD. It drove him over the edge, you claim. He was a nice mellow guy before then. Just like BTK and every other serial killer.

little.

I don't claim anything. That is what I deduce from all of the evidence we have heard so far. We know that the people who knew him have been coming forward saying he was happy, mellow, good natured honest. We know he was in court for 5 years, where he lost repeatedly. and appealed and lost again. We know what he said in his letter. We know what he did. I am not a judge.

For a moment there was a scandal on tv about a restraining order. turned out it was not against him. So far there is no indication of mental illness 5 years ago. There is indication he turned in a superior office for beating a person in handcuffs.
I have not heard anyone go on the record and say he was violent or anything similar 5 years ago.

so far.
We just don't know what really happened.

he was wrong and terrible for what he did, but LAPD was wrong in how they handled it. Shooting cars that looked like his with women in them? Goodness…if I lived in LA I would be afraid to drive.

wtf???

i hear ya. this has been interesting (and not in a good way) seeing how this developed.

It's that many can't allow for a single fact without reflexively bringing in unrelated facts.

Unless those are now defenses for murder. Are they?

we'll never know all the details.

But your fawning adoration for cops out of control is duly noted.

BY NOT KILLING MORE PEOPLE AND BY SURRENDERING.

that Dorner would not be taken alive, the LAPD had no intention of letting Dorner's voice be heard. It's a shame Dorner didn't have the presence of a stable mind, to write a book or find some other way to get the story out about the corruption in the LAPD. Given all that, Dorner's legacy will be that of a murderer.

psychos from acting out on their urges. As a country, we fail completely in that department, and then insist that these sick people be able to get guns.

That the LAPD is incompetent and corrupt is without doubt. But Dorner is also a murderer.

to the unfairness of their employer.

Do you think that mental health care could change some of the horrible employers in our country?

I don't know whether you saw the video featuring Wonder Bread/Hostess Corp. employees. They described how their employer had taken money out of their checks to put in a pension fund and then basically used the pension funds for purposes other than the employer had promised. Of course, then in bankruptcy court, the employer basically stole the pension funds.

Do you think that mental health care for the bosses at Wonder Bread/Hostess would help our country?

I am amazed at how nonviolent people remain when they have to deal with the fact that their employer stole from them, from their pension funds, broke promises.

Who needs the mental health care here?

I don't know what really happened in Dorner's situation. I'm not talking about that. I had the impression that the LAPD had straightened itself out a great deal and is doing far better than many of the police forces in the nation.

But more generally, why is it always the little, frustrated guy, the powerless person whom we view as mentally ill?

Do we just label the weak and helpless as mentally ill?

What about a powerful guy like Donald Trump? Does he need mental health care so that he can feel more compassion? How about the Koch Brothers? Do we view them as mentally healthy, sane just because they have money?

Do we equate wealth with mental health and poverty with mental illness? Is mental illness sometimes just a code word for: annoying, bothersome, difficult, sassy, . . . . ?

There are many here going

I just wish he wouldn't sell it as chocolate.

Reality is hard to face, dear.

Sorry I can't stop laughing about that. 18 really?

But she is RIGHT!