.

but there were several people that were claiming that LE denied Dorner of his right to due process and his right to a trial.

non sequitur after non sequitur. many of us are able to condemn dorner as well as the tactics employed by law enforcement throughout this entire event. others aren't.

and while I may disagree with you, I do respect your right to your opinion.

Did not want to surrender, so he killed himself.

The San Bernadino cops were obviously thirsting for vengeance after two of their own had been shot with one killed. Listening to the tapes of the scanner you can only conclude that Dorner's chances to surrender are very close to nil. No one is there to film them shoot him down after surrendering. He'd be shot dead -white flag or no- and the department would unite around the killing "in memory of our fallen" and we would never be told the truth.

The only way Dorner could be induced to surrender, and the only way the enraged local police could be induced not to murder him if he tried, would be for the commander on the scene to impose a cooling off period by way of a more drawn out siege.

If there was a protracted siege, it is quite likely that Dorner shoots himself anyway rather than surrendering. For those who justify the frontal assault on the cabin and subsequent arson, both of which were surely meant to kill him, by saying that "Dorner wanted to end it this way" I say, law enforcement doesn't exist to give criminals what they want. They aren't there to grant mad dog killers their wishes for a final "blaze of glory" shootout. The first priority is to safeguard the lives of the public. Dorner surrounded in the cabin isn't able to threaten the public. The second priority is to bring criminals into custody to face the justice system. Christopher Dorner had constructed a legend of himself in his own mind in which he was the hero battling an evil grand conspiracy embodied in the police forces of Los Angeles - and wherever else he ran to. Because he never faced the justice system, he got to believe his own bullshit right to the end. He never had to face the fact that he was a criminal, not a hero. He stayed the hero warrior in his tale because the police were willing to play the part he scripted for them. You don't defeat legends with bullets, but by countering their fictions with facts. That happens only in a courtroom. It's done by very ordinary boring non-heroic people called judges, attorneys and juries. Dorner needed his legend destroyed by methodical exposition of facts: this is what you did Mr. Dorner - your manifesto can neither excuse nor acquit you. You're not a revolution, Mr. Dorner, just a selfish miserable fuck up and a conscienceless killer. He lost the battle, but his legend won a kind of moral victory by not being deflated and disproved to his face. This way -"ending it the way he wanted" - the legend becomes something that can survive him and spread. He dragged the cops down to his level by forcing them to meet him in battle like equals. He dragged them down and trapped them in a squalid struggle for vengeance - not totally unlike his own.

to a psychotic mind...

Your last line gets to the essence of motive--

"He dragged them down and trapped them in a squalid struggle for vengeance - not totally unlike his own."

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I don't agree that the cops would have shot him if he came out hands up & weaponless. That would have not been a smart thing to do, even if they felt like it (which I'm sure they did).

Agreed, Dorner would never surrender. He could have run out the back even when they lit the thing. He was never going to give them the satisfaction of being captured. The cops decided to force him to make a clear choice. He did that IMO.

Not everyone wants to save themselves. People have a hard time understanding that. Should the cops have "worked harder" to save his life? Maybe. That's where they likely decided in the negative.

I'd run out to save my life. Shooting myself in the head wouldn't be my first or even my second choice.

Chances are he could have surrendered, even after the house started burning.

Just saying.

either by his own hand or a hail of bullets. don't take that as an endorsement of dorner, because it's not.

There is a remote chance that had he ran out and a hail of bullets hit him he could've still survived (highly unlikely, but beyond his control). So he did the last thing he could do within his control.

the voices on the tape are red hot for killing. It doesn't get hotter than that.

A siege would impose a cooling off period. Dorner still probably shoots himself, but I can think of ways to wear him down. It would be better to try to bring him in than not to try at all.

Police lobbed "burners" in there.

Not tear gas, not flash-bangs.

Burners.

Investigate.

He refused to surrender, was shooting, killing, kidnapping, robbing, carjacking innocent people...investigate what? They would have been justified dropping a bomb on him. He was in a shoot out.


Just like mcveigh, just like 911, he had excuses for his rampage.....and we should give him as much crediance as we did them.

Burners is the slang term for that particular type of tear gas cannister, the slang comes from the fact that that CS gas causes severe burning of the mucous membrane, the eyes, the nose and any open wound, not because it will light a fire, although with that particular cannister, there is that danger.

as has been stated already in this thread, there are two types of gas canisters. these types are known for the possibility of igniting interior areas. the cops knew exactly what they were doing. now whether you believe the actions of the police were justified or not is another discussion, but let's get real here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101799335

from DevonRex's link below:

"The burner" was shorthand for a grenade-like canister containing a more powerful type of tear gas than had been used earlier. Police use the nickname because of the intense heat the device gives off, which often causes a fire.

I have experience in this field and I well know what the slang term is.

and I acknowledged that in this post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022382782#post20

As far as it being the desired outcome, I disagree with that statement and I choose to believe the Sheriff that the intent wasn't to start a fire, but it was to try to force Dorner out of the cabin, the fire was an unfortunate accident which the Sheriff admitted to.

Fire investigation will reveal the truth.

But that's not what he wanted.

he would most likely have *actually* reached for a gun.

I have no further use for you in this discussion. Good night.

He could have called a lawyer, the media, trusted friends to escort him to any police station of his choosing, didn't have to be an LAPD station, and surrendered to police in front of his witness's, instead, he opted to continue his murderous spree and the outcome is history.

other people he killed. He had plenty of chances to surrender before he got himself cornered in the cabin. He had more of a chance than he gave Monica Quan and Keith Lawrence. Fucking coward.

Dorner's last victim was Jeremiah MacKay

in any of them. It is possible that it is too quiet to hear it because of the walls and distance. but you hear so many gun shots, and never one lone gunshot.

the scenario does make sense though.