as we now know all too well.

Many members of fundamentalist churches say this is a sign that the end of the world is near, but maybe this scandal means, this is only the end of the Catholic Church as we know it.

but Amen. We are better than what the Church has been preaching, but then doing.

Hmmm ... I rejected the church of my childhood long ago, as a teen ... I've been bashing the church ever since ...

today. I was hoping to consolidate what was known today so new-comers can put 2 and 2 together.

Also, if I state plainly at the start that this is not a bashing thread, more might read it.

When this all starts pouring out, there won't be much need to bash the church: I think this might be the cause of the greatest decline of church membership and sponsorship since the end of the holy roman empire.

The scariest thing is the way they'll use the courts to try to hide the truth. If they were as holy as they proclaim, they wouldn't hire expensive lawyers to run around and play legal games to prevent this release.

I doubt the cardinals even realize yet what they're in for. This friday could mark the start of a world-wide revolt of the devout.

But, if you're asking me- Bash away. It's a free country.

which should be discussed regardless of who is involved. You did a good job of explaining it without coming across as a "basher".

Thanks for the story. I hadn't heard this.

This is the kind of factual news account post that I want to be able to read here, with links. This will help secular law move forward against the RC church, and I want to see it done.

I've read all the abuse stories I can handle, and I don't doubt them (being a family abuse survivor myself), but when they devolve (as they nearly always do) to smearing the character of every one of the faithful remaining in the pews, I have to leave the room.

I really want to see the boil of corruption lanced, and as they say, sunlight is the best disinfectant.

As for RC church membership -- it has been declining in the US and Europe, so with this news expect that to continue and/or accelerate -- but is growing apace in Africa and Asia. More than 2/3 of Roman Catholics live in the developing world.
http://www.prb.org/Articles/2005/TheChangingDemographicsofRomanCatholics.aspx

As converts generally go, expect Third World Catholics to be conservative, especially the cardinals chosen by the abdicating pope.

I believe it is up to Europe and the US to invoke our own secular legal system to clean up inside our own nations, to do what we can within our own borders. And if that means prison sentences for a bunch of priests, bishops, and cardinals, get on with it.

Glad to see that there is a free press in america and it sometimes does serve regular people instead of the rich and powerful.

We are blessed to have a judge willing to take on the biggest crime syndicate in the history of the world.

I think (to their credit), that is what the OP is trying to do. Regardless of how one feels about religious topics, we should be able to discuss current events involving one or the other in a factual manner. "Bashing" hardly helps that process...

Promise to be on my best behavior ....

Thanks ....

if you say one thing against them, you are "bashing". Frankly, I am sickened by this to the bone, and if it makes me a basher of the Church, so be it.

I get satisfaction, usually, but I will abide by the OP's request in this case ...

I have no cross to bear on this thread ....

I border on anti-theist at times, yet I have had only two posts hidden in over ten years .... So I am careful enough to form my rhetoric without undue meanness .....

It is ok to criticize the essence of a theology without just being rude and ugly ....

and the church would be bankrupt overnight.

Yet, if they don't return the money, how do they look?

This entire thing is beyond comprehension.

It seems as though the legal process will allow the facts which support the plaintiff's case to come to light.

There is going to be an immense amount of information to wade through in upcoming weeks.

As I understand it, the Timothy J. Mee Charitable Trust was established by Ms. Mee's late husband who died in 1985. After Mr. Mee's death, Mrs. Mee allowed the trust to make substantial yearly contributions to the North America order of the Legion of Christ. In 2008, just days before Mrs. Mee's death, catholic priest and co-trustee Anthony Bannon requested the other co-trustee (a bank) to acquiesce to a $400,000 transfer to the order.

As for other transfers, in 2006, Mrs. Mee used her own funds to make a $1,210,000 donation to the order. In 2007 she made a $590,000 donation to the order.

In 2005, the order's long-time head, catholic priest Marcial Maciel Degollado, resigned. The resignation occurred days after then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger commented that "filth" would be cleared from the church. Shortly thereafter, an investigation of Degollado was opened (or perhaps more accurately stated, "an old investigation of him was reopened&quot . In 2006, the Vatican publicly disciplined Degollado, and he died in 2008. In 2010, the Vatican seized control of the Legion of Christ.

The niece who brought the present Rhode Island lawsuit is Mary Lou Dauray, a niece of Mrs. Mee.

From what I have read, there are two aspects of the case which might make it difficult for Ms. Dauray to recover the $60 million. First, the Rhode Island court has ruled that Ms. Dauray lacks legal standing to pursue the case. Second, there are other relatives of Mrs. Mee who have allegedly stated that, during her final years in the convent, Ms. Mee was not sequestered from her relatives who reportedly visited her and spoke with her on a somewhat regular basis.

At any rate, it will be interesting to learn from the unsealed depositions if the Vatican knew, at the time Degollado was courting Mrs. Mee's money, that he had a history of engaging in indiscretions and perpetrating abuse.

Personally, I can't follow it all at that level of legal detail, but what matters is that those who know about this stuff will, now.

It's interesting that Ratz tried to get in there and do something, but he's just not willing to really pull the trigger and out the entire corruption scheme. He's taking the cowardly way out, and hiding behind the nuns.

This is the detail, along with the church's legal wranglings, that discredits them to the world. Whether or not the family reclaims the money is beside the point.

But it is also interesting that, if not for the greed of the church, the pedophiles in this instance might have been stopped. Quite ironically, it's good old human greed that will ultimately out the church's own conspiracy: She wouldn't have bothered, if not for the money.

7 deadly sins: Greed, greed, greed, Greed, greed, greed,and greed.

can an organization such as the church in this case, benefit through misrepresentation, regardless of the legal standing of the niece...?

Second question, if the documents reveal an "intent" on the part of the Order (by denial of information) to take advantage of a person's spiritual beliefs, what does this mean and how does it impact the church?

Just curious...

As I understand it, the Vatican prefers priests to operate within the traditional church structure of bishop-governed dioceses. Existing outside of said traditional diocese structure are certain religious orders of nuns and priests who have their own governing bodies. Most of those religious orders meet with the approval of the Vatican which probably receives from each of them agreed-upon tithes.

Occasionally, there comes along a priest who is not attached to a diocese or a religious order and who begins a ministry to a segment of the populace having needs or desires which are not being filled by the diocese or by the existing religious orders. Gradually, the ministry takes on the characteristics of a religious order. The people who are ministered to by the order may be indigent, or they may have been disenfranchised by society. Sometimes, the people who are being ministered to by the order are well off and hold particular religious tenants (think Opus Dei) which are of a devotional nature.

It is my impression that, if an upstart order demonstrates that it has influence and the ability to garner financial support, the Vatican will take notice of it and try to reach an agreement with its leaders. For the order to receive the support of the Vatican, the order would have to obey church teaching.

It is my impression that, as the Legion of Christ gained popularity and financial patronage, its leaders and the Vatican reached an agreement by which the Vatican gave its approval to the order and began receiving tithes from it. At some point, the Vatican learned that the order’s founder, priest Marcial Maciel Degollado, fathered at least one child and was accused of sexual misconduct with teenage males. As mentioned above, the Vatican disciplined Degollado in 2006, and he died in 2008.

With regard to the unsealed records in the Rhode Island case, we may learn if and when the Vatican sent communications to the order addressing the misconduct allegations which had surfaced against Degollado. At this point, it is not clear if Degollado has ever been accused of sexual abuse of teenage males during any period in which the Vatican had already possessed knowledge of prior accusations against him.

As for the relevance of the foregoing to the Rhode Island case, the plaintiff (a niece of the wealthy benefactor) is trying to prove that the order concealed from the benefactor the fact that Degollado had fathered one or more children and that he had been accused of sexual abuse of teenage boys. The plaintiff believes that, if the fathering fact alone had been told to the benefactor, she would have viewed the order (which extols chastity among women) as hypocritical, and she would have directed her money to worthier beneficiaries.

Could it be that he has a taste for boys? Just wondering.

Wolf

If not, you should probably delete that post.

from prosecution? Those who protect rapist are just as guilty as the rapist.

that's where else a pederast, in the past, could go to get kids and be protected

several years before he was outed then ousted.

of POPE BENEDICT GOD ON EARTH. Catholic Clergy HAVE THE RIGHT to molest children, and we POOR, WEAK SINNERS, have to grin and bear it and PAY, PRAY AND OBEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, I hope the Italian Republic revokes the fascist concordat of 1929. occupies the Vatican toy state, and sends that coterie of crooked bankers and child abusers and enablers to prison.

Wolf

Then when she was in the early stages of Alzheimer's...couldn't go to church anymore...was giving away money to strangers on the street... a priest came to her house and asked for a donation to repair the roof. She wrote him a $5,000 check in wobbly hand writing.
The very next day another priest arrived asking for donations...she wrote another $5,000 check. Those were the last two checks she was ever able to write. THEY WERE TAKING MONEY FROM AN ALZHEIMER PATIENT! My husband never had another nice word for the Catholic church! By the way...not one priest EVER came to visit her, wrote her a note of thanks or said prayers for her...their longest, most dedicated, most generous parishioner. I have to assume they felt guilty.

Especially guilt.

He's not in America.

The former nunnery that Pope Benedict will occupy in retirement is within Vatican City.

hiding out in the Vatican, avoiding prosecution in the U.S.? Or do I have that wrong?

I do not know if he ever faced criminal charges. But yes, he was brought across the pond and given a position in the Vatican.

A similar situation has happened with the Savile scandal in Britain. The BBC official most responsible for that cover-up has crossed the pond and gotten a plum position at, of all places, the New York Times. At least that's my understanding.

Good thing they are a nation
otherwise it would be a criminal organization.

It's still in operation and in fact has a new chief, a non-clergy German.

Emboldening mine in some places:



The Institute for Works of Religion (Italian: Istituto per le Opere di Religione – IOR), commonly known as the Vatican Bank, is a privately held institute[1] located inside Vatican City run by a CEO who reports directly to a committee of cardinals, and ultimately to the Pope (or the Camerlengo of the Holy Roman Church during a sede vacante). Since its assets are not considered property of the Holy See, it is not overseen by the Prefecture for the Economic Affairs of the Holy See,[2] and it is listed in the Annuario Pontificio not under "Holy See" or "Vatican City State", but after the pages on religious institutes,[3] and cultural institutes,[4] and placed with charitable foundations[5] such as the John Paul Foundation for the Sahel.[6] The bank's most recent President, Ettore Gotti Tedeschi, was removed from his post by the board of directors in May 2012, for dereliction of duty.[7]

The Institute was involved in a major political and financial scandal in the 1980s, concerning the 1982 $4.7 billion collapse of Banco Ambrosiano, of which it was a major shareholder. The head of IOR from 1971 to 1989, Archbishop Paul Marcinkus, was under consideration for indictment in 1982 in Italy as an accessory of the bankruptcy; however, he was never brought to trial due to the Italian courts' ruling that the priest, being a high-ranking prelate of the Vatican, had diplomatic immunity from prosecution.[8]

As a private organization performing banking-like functions for religious institutions, it is not subject to public scrutiny. It nonetheless, presented a short presentation on its operations in 2012, apparently in response to recent criticism.[9]

The Bank Identifier Code of the Institute for Works of Religion is IOPRVAVX.

2009–2012 Vatican money laundering investigation

In 2009, the Italian magazine Panorama reported that IOR was being investigated by Italian authorities from the Financial Intelligence Unit of the Banca d'Italia and the Guardia di Finanza over money laundering transactions worth €180 million (US$ 218 million) through a branch of UniCredit located at Via della Conciliazione across from St. Peter's Basilica.[27] The bank handles accounts of the religious orders and other Catholic associations using the "offshore" (i.e., foreign) status of the Holy See.[28]

On 21 September 2010, Italian police declared that Gotti Tedeschi and another IOR manager were under investigation for money laundering charges. €23 million were seized as a precaution.[29] Police began an investigation regarding Tedeschi around a week before the news was made public after a division of the Bank of Italy alerted police to two transactions involving the IOR that were deemed suspicious.[30] The money seized was bound from an Italian bank, Credito Artigianato, to JP Morgan Chase and another Italian bank, Banca del Fucino.[30] Both the origin and destination of the funds were accounts under the control of the IOR.[31] The IOR had allegedly failed to disclose the origin of the money, a violation of Italian law.[30]

In a statement regarding the investigation, the Vatican said that it was "...perplexed and astonished by the initiatives of the Rome prosecutors, considering the data necessary is already available at the Bank of Italy."[30]

According to the police, the presence of the investigation did not mean either of the officials involved had been charged with a crime, and a judicial ruling would be necessary to continue the investigation.[31]

On Thursday, December 30, 2010, the Catholic News Service homepage reported that Pope Benedict XVI had issued an Apostolic Letter that established the Financial Information Authority as an independent agency to oversee the monetary and commercial activities of all Vatican-related institutions, including the IOR. It will monitor all Vatican financial operations and make sure they meet international norms against money-laundering and the financing of terrorism.

On May 31, 2011, Rome's attorney general released the 23 million Euros in assets which had been seized in September, apparently in acknowledgment of the steps taken in the following months to conform the Institute to international standards.

On May 24, 2012, Ettore Gotti Tedeschi was ousted as Head of the Vatican Bank because of "failure to fulfill the primary functions of his office". He is currently being investigated on suspicion of money laundering.[32]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Bank

Agreed, their status as a foreign nation has served them very well. So will it serve such enterprises as Belle Isle in MI.

I remember reading about this a while back in some articles and thought it meant the Church was going broke. But they can't be charged apparently nor even investigated. They have weathered a lot of lawsuits of historical merit.

Of course this is the Wikipedia page and something may have changed. Have you heard anything more recent?

TIA.

Sorry, but the elderly are getting bilked everyday, everywhere.

Benny might want out because he doesn't want to spend his time on this kind of stuff though!

Everyone is looking for "the" reason--maybe he just can't go along with the bullshit anymore?

it certainly is possible that's why he left

Sorry. Had to.

What other damning info/documents does the butler know about. He got a commuted sentence and a papal pardon for some reason!

I sure hope this latest hoopla doesn't sidetrack the anti-contraception crusade going on in the church. We can't be seen as forcing women not to have kids, y'know!

an American Catholic church unaffiliated with Rome. Yes, they wil lose all the property, but there are enough wealthy people and generous working people willing to help them rebuild an ethical and more inclusive church.

The Old Apostolic Catholic and Celtic Catholic churches are offshoots of Roman Catholicism. I go to an Apostolic parish. They broke from Rome in the 1800s. They need to spread out more.

Far more open, and harder to abuse little unsuspecting boys. Much less fear and coercion.

It may be that this scandal will bring many believers over there, exactly as you suggest.

The wine was good. I was never a believer, but the church was a pleasant trip to my grandmother's house. To continue going there to look at the pretty girls, drink wine, see granny, and maybe some White Castle, or a stop at a German Bakery was worth the deception.

be used as a force for good.

I saw the excellent HBO documentary on the decades-long cover-up of the molestation and the case of Maciel in particular. One of the frustrations for the victims and their counsel was that as pope, Ratzinger can claim diplomatic immunity as a head of state. When he announced his resignation a week after the documentary aired, I figured they could go after him. Isn't he going to be more vulnerable after he resigns?

BTW, catch the documentary if you can. It's called "Maxima Mea Culpa: Silence in the House of God" and it focuses on the deaf students who fought for decades to get the church and the authorities to take their stories seriously.

As long as he's holed up there, he is safe from the law.

have been bashing the Catholic Church for centuries. It's very easy to do as this most recent scandal illustrates.

If the Catholic Church does not want to be bashed, then it needs to reform itself. Following Jesus' advice and banning money changing from churches and, instead, giving away its wealth to the poor would be a good start.

Not trying to diminish the scope of Catholic prelate depradations; just sayin'.

to make it public. Generally, the cover-up bureaucracy is not as well organized or successful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartuffe

You can literally check out the digital copy of the book here:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/28488

Relatively benign ( for then) Presbyterian. Now secular humanist with most visits and support to UU.

My still Catholic friends love the nuns on the bus, but still support their parishes ( and hence the Vatican) with good works and money. It seems to me that they love the rituals and what peace they give and "work around" the reality that is , while devoting themselves to the food pantries and the like.

I never challenge them, and even donate to their food pantries in their honor, but weep for them because I know they are smart enough to KNOW.

These friends are VERY senior citizens who see no satisfying place to go after a lifetime of faithfully attending and believing in the dogma.

https://www.hbo.com/documentaries/mea-maxima-culpa/index.html

It details the SORDID perverse actions of a pedophile Milwaukee priest running amok in a school for deaf children. It also follows the chronology of the Church's actions from 1954 thru 2011. This film will piss you off.

Pope Benedict is toast and he knows it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/15/us-pope-resignation-immunity-idUSBRE91E0ZI20130215

and another lawsuit not covered by msm

http://itccs.org/2013/02/13/pope-benedict-resigned-to-avoid-arrest-seizure-of-church-wealth-by-easter/
http://www.examiner.com/article/pope-served-summons-crimes-against-humanity-child-abuse-trafficking

and a statement by Kevin Annett regarding the resignation,
http://kevinannett.com/

Pretty much all I know about Kevin Annett is that he is a Canadian United church minister who has dedicated his life to defending and assisting survivors of native residential schools. He is never ever covered by msm therefore the only coverage of his work is alternative sites which some here may find questionable. So I'm not getting into debate over where I sourced info about him. The censorship on this man appears to be thorough as I can't even find any wikipedia page on him except in what appears to be the Italian language.

If even a fraction of this is true, it's more than enough reason for the resignation. Thanks.

Controversial figure, called mentally ill by some. It'd be nice if some Canadian Duers chimed in about this guy.

Also, the ITCSS appears to be mostly Kevin Annett, rather than an actual tribunal.

LOLilicious

The history of crimes committed by the church go far beyond the current sex abuse scandal.
The magdalene laundries(slavery for the benefit of the church) is another crime being dealt with.
Do not forget the inquisition and destruction of the Mayan libraries of knowledge.

we ended up with the Reformation.