but then she should have to put it up for adoption or lose it to DCFS because being a mother at 12 is paramount to child abuse.

at what age is it the mothers choice entirely? Perhaps a moot point as it is not medically adviseable for most 12 y/olds to carry to term. Just wondering what people have to say about it.

even if the prospective mother is 12 unless expert medical opinion is that carrying the child to term would result in the death or serious injury to the mother- which isn't to say that I think the TX case is anything but bullshit with anti-choicers pulling the strings.

That's what I thought the second I read about it.

And death/serious long-term injury is almost guaranteed with a full-term birth in a 12 year old. I'll see if I can dig up the stats.

Here's one:

Pregnancy and childbirth-related deaths are the number one killers of 15 - 19 year old girls world-wide. Each year, nearly 70,000 die. At least 2 million more are left with chronic illness or disabilities that may bring them life-long suffering, shame, and abandonment. Physically immature and often with few resources, the youngest first- time mothers are most at risk. Moreover, each year 2.2 to 4 million adolescents resort to unsafe abortion. Ninety nine per cent of maternal deaths occur in the developing world, and most of them—an overwhelming 74 per cent—are preventable.
Sources: UNICEF 2002; WHO, UNICEF, and UNFPA 2004; Safe Motherhood Inter-Agency Group 2002; Olukoya et
al. 2001; Bale, Stoll, and Adetokunbo 2003; Wagstaff and Claeson 2004.

Retrieved from https://www.unfpa.org/webdav/site/global/shared/documents/publications/2007/giving_girls.pdf

After all, in many impoverished parts of the world, childbirth is still deadly for both mother and child. It is not almost guaranteed that a 15 year old in this country will die in pregnancy. 750,000 girls between 15-19 get pregnant every year in this country. 2/3 of those choose to carry to term. You're surely not suggesting that most of those girls die?

I'm not giving a number, but as I recall, even in the US, the morbidity/mortality for that age group is staggering. WHO was the first data set I could put my hands on that even addressed that age group.

evidently, 400 women died in the U.S. of causes related to childbirth.

http://www.harpersbazaar.com/beauty/health-wellness-articles/wife-died-after-childbirth-0909

Worldwide, girls <15 are 5x more likely to die then women over 20.

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/component/content/article/436-adolescent-maternal-mortality-an-overlooked-crisis

This is the breakdown state by state, 1999 through 2007:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/mortality/gmwk23f.htm

You are wrong. Most girls under 15 who carry to term, do not die in childbirth in this country- or others. Yes, the mortality rate is higher but it isn't even close to your claim.

I made the claim for maternal mortality and morbidity in primaparas ages 10-15 ... not for mortality of everyone in that age group.

It's 3:30 am; I'm not going to be doing much more research tonight.

On edit: it IS 3:30 am and I did just have surgery not that long ago ... I'm not missing an argument FOR 12 YOs to give birth, am I?

is pregnant, I believe it's her choice as long as long as her medical team agrees.

Choice means choice.

IMO a 16 year old would need very little parental guidance to make the decision on whether or not to have an abortion. A 12 year old I think would need a lot more guidance and would not be a mother if she carried a baby to term. A 12 year old is simply not equipped to be a mother. So, the parents of a 12 year old would in fact end up being the parents. So, that is a lot tougher of a situation. Even a 16 year old with a child is somewhat problematic, but I would expect a 16 year old to be able to make all the small decisions of care and most the larger ones.

But they're not within their rights to force her to have an abortion. It's her body, her choice.

And of course the parents can refuse to raise the child, but that would mean putting their daughter out of their home as well. A 12 year old even if only taking care of herself isn't in any shape to live independently a 12 year old with a baby definitely will need someone to look after her and the baby. So, this will be a foster care situation. Then it is likely the grandparents may not be able to know the whereabouts of their child and grand child. But, Idk about that if they voluntarily give their child up to foster care. In Minnesota they parents would be financially liable for the foster care if they give up their child voluntarily so, if they can't afford that they will be on the hook to take care of both their child and grandchild, which they might also not be able to afford. This situation IMO is much different than an older teen with a baby, not by a million miles, but it is different. In this instance there are a lot more issues to think about. But, ultimately it will be a decision the 12 year old will have to make.

This girl should have the baby if that is her wish. It would be cruel to force her to have an abortion.

don't think so, anyway

But I have no doubt my mother would not have let my life be so endangered by a full-term pregnancy at that age (it's pretty risky for a child that young to give birth). That's after she killed my rapist, of course.

I knew at age 9 I didn't want children, so if this had happened to me, no 'force' necessary.

She was very mature looking for 12. She carried the baby to term and gave it up for adoption. To my knowledge she had no resulting health problems. I was 15 at the time so may have missed more details.

smoke? enter into contracts?

whether she goes through a pregnancy or not.

The right to choose doesn't apply only to the right to have an abortion; it also applies to the right not to have an abortion, because it is based on our right to privacy.

If her parents won't help her, she could give up the baby or she and the baby could go into foster care.

compared to a sixteen year old. She is more likely to have problems complying with any regimen prescribed by the doctor, more likely to need a C-section.

Ovulation in 12 year olds doesn't mean they are really ready to make babies yet.

They're in a bad situation that resulted from some poor decisions.

and is now my age. She had a more difficult life to be sure but all was well.

I think if it were my daughter (who is close to that age) I'd have her visit a doctor to make sure she knew the potential problems and a psychologist to make sure it was really what she wanted, but if she was well informed and wanted to have the baby, I would not make her have an abortion and I would support her and the baby if she decided not to place it for adoption.

I think abortion is a great option and I'm very glad the option exists, but I worry about how difficult it would be to be forced to have one against your will and grow up wondering about what the baby would have been like. To choose an abortion is to be at peace with it, but to have it forced when you don't want it is to always wish it hadn't happened and to always regret it. At least I see that as the most likely end circumstance.

I believe pro choice means allowing choices that make us uncomfortable.

The notion of any child that age parenting anyone is absurd, let alone one who has led the sort of sad, abused life that would result in a child that age being pregnant.

right to have an abortion and the same right underpins their right to go through with a pregnancy.

What happens after a baby is born is a separate issue.

decide whether the infant is kept by the family or given up for adoption/foster system, etc. Those are the rules I'd make. So she can have the kid if she wants, but the parents get to decide if she keeps it. Such rules would apply until a pregnant child is 18 or is an emancipated minor.

a 12 year old is a child, not a woman

A 12 year old child is not a woman.

By this logic, a 17-year old who wanted an abortion could be prevented by her parents from getting one.

say whatever else you must, I stand by my point

This is gunna sound truly crazy but my daughter who is twelve is pregnant. I am so not happy about it. And I'm trying to find out what my rights are. I live in the state of Vermont, and seem to have no rights. I have begge and pleaded for her to abort. I've showed her all the medical risks and labor videos. And still all I get is, nothing. She seems to think shed be a murderer. But to carry on is murder to her self. She won't listen to reason or anything else. Now, because she's so young, I'm responsibile to make sure she's going to appointments and all else. But I have no say weather she keeps it or not?? She's only in the 7th grade. Not even in high school. Never even changed a diaper. And no, I'm not a parent that lets there children go gallavanting at all hours and acting like little hood rats. Simply put, she lied to me about where she was going and who she was going with. Long story short we find ourself in this situation. A f'ed up crappy one at that. She's only 7 weeks and her hands and feet are already so swollen it hurts for her o walk. If anyone has any legal information to help me with, PLEASE do so. Or any moms in this situation PLEASE HELP. I'm dying on the inside!!

Since this discussion was from February, you might get a better response if you posted in one of these groups. Welcome to DU and hope that you get both support and some answers here.


Parenting (Group)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1160

Pro-Choice (Group)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1152

Vermont (Group)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1080

Since she is a young child and you are responsible for her, wouldn't you be her medical proxy? If would also help if you had a sympathetic doctor or someone at Planned Parenthood who's experienced in counseling who could speak to her.

The dangers are obvious, but what about the rest of her life? Teenagers have trouble looking ahead and seeing the big picture, only live in the now, so I can't imagine how it is with a 12-year-old child. She's certainly not old enough to live on her own, get a job, and legally she needs to be in school.

Do you know the boyfriend's parents? A touchy subject, especially if he's just as young, but they have to be having the same feelings that you are, if they know. I'd find a responsible counselor, someone she sees as impartial who might be able to explain the facts to her who she might listen to.

You really do have a dilemma and there has to be some help out there. And someone on DU might be able to steer you in the right direction... You can start your own thread after 10 replies.

Yes. As a minor, I am her proxy but when it comes to this, the abortion law is her body her choice. And if she was even 15, though I wouldn't want that either, I wouldn't try to push abortion on her. But she's not even old enough to know what the term bowel movement is yet!! She's not responsible or mature enough to make that choice. She doesn't know what it's like to be pregnant. She hasn't even had a babysitting job yet!! Never mind that she's only had her period a year and just started blooming. She doesn't even where a coat with out an argument!! What does that say?? I've talked to family court and I'm told there really isn't much I can do. The boyfriends parents want her to keep it!! That'd crazy!! He's 15. She's not. An yet nothing I can do. I think in this situation it should be my choice and not hers. As she just doesn't kno what's best for herself yet!!

And this is her life you're talking about. She has no idea at such a young age. Perhaps you could talk to someone at Planned Parenthood or to a counselor to advise her. Certainly no one her own age can possibly have a clue. She's just a child, so can't be expected to understand, and it makes no sense that the boyfriend's parents can't realize that. We're not even talking about a teenager here. Since you are her medical proxy, and her parent and guardian, that should count for a lot. I'd still consult a lawyer and/or an experienced counselor, since it's not just a difference of opinion, but a child who needs help to make a decision that's in her own interest, which she's just not capable of at such a young age. I am so sorry that you're faced with this...

although it's risky--at any age.

Besides, my bullshit meter is pinned.

...that I am so sorry for your situation. A very enlightening and thought provoking post. Btw, welcome to DU.

You've got me thinking about something that I never imagined might be an issue. As I sit here, not in your position, I tell myself that if I were in your situation I would have taken my daughter to the doctor or PP and had them give her the morning after pill. That shows you how ignorant I am on such things.

My next step would be the abortion but I'm sitting her stunned to find out that you have no say in this matter. That you can't, as the mother of a 12 year old daughter, authorize her to receive an abortion.

Maybe you could take her to some kind of counseling to try to help her choose the abortion on her own.

I not some crazy pro abortion advocate that pushes abortion on everyone. I just think that if there was ever a case for early pregnancy termination, this would be it.

Having a baby is not a decision that should be taken lightly, and should in the real world, be given plenty of forethought and planning. Decisions that your daughter is not mature enough to make or emotionally capable of making at her age. She is still a child!

My opinion, possibly not a popular opinion, is that accidental pregnancy in a 12 year old girl, for whatever reason, should be treated as an illness/accident and treated accordingly. Your child gets pneumonia, you give them penicillin. Broken arm, you have the break set with a cast. Pregnancy...you terminate the pregnancy.

Ok, I've gone on long enough. I'm just so surprised that you don't have more legal say in your situation.

I wish you the best.

TYY

it's maddening to see people here supporting forcing a girl to have an abortion. Choice mean choice. Period.

How is your primary care physician handling your daughter's current medical problems brought on by this pregnancy? She needs counseling with a social worker.

Here is a link to your new thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022661346

Hope this helps you.

TYY

Sorry you're going through this difficult time.

the right to do so. Period.

...The choice of whether or not to have the baby is up to the female that is pregnant.....not her parents or their lawyers. There are good reasons for her to have the baby, and there are good reasons for her to not have the baby. If you are a good parent, you'll make sure she's exposed to all the info, and you'll support her choice.

(likely non-existent) pregnancy to authorities, then you are aiding and abetting child rape.

Parents have total legal say versus parents have no legal say.

I strongly dislike both options. If I had to choose one, I would choose parents have no legal say, but I would love to hear other options.