Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
119 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Check in if you are neither crying nor grave dancing over Hugo Chavez (Original Post) RB TexLa Mar 2013 OP
Raises hand... CaliforniaPeggy Mar 2013 #1
No personal investment in the matter jberryhill Mar 2013 #2
present BainsBane Mar 2013 #3
Aye. nt bemildred Mar 2013 #4
Checking in. Pararescue Mar 2013 #5
Here. bluedigger Mar 2013 #6
Raising hand! mailman82 Mar 2013 #7
checking in elehhhhna Mar 2013 #8
Neutral is where I'm at quinnox Mar 2013 #9
Count me in appleannie1 Mar 2013 #10
Did some good, did some bad Prism Mar 2013 #11
I'm meh. NYC_SKP Mar 2013 #12
That'd be me Warpy Mar 2013 #13
me = meh n/t NRaleighLiberal Mar 2013 #14
Checking in. stevenleser Mar 2013 #15
Niger says different. Arctic Dave Mar 2013 #34
I said hard, not impossible. If the leaders take all the money and stuff them in swiss bank accounts stevenleser Mar 2013 #70
Unfortunately, it is all too tempting for most oil producing countries. Arctic Dave Mar 2013 #74
Agreed, but my point is, simply not being a thief doesn't mean you are an economic genius. stevenleser Mar 2013 #77
Neoliberal doesn't work either, Russia is a glaring example. Arctic Dave Mar 2013 #87
I don't agree that Russia's system is neoliberal. I think it is much more complicated than that. nt stevenleser Mar 2013 #92
True, there is more detail to it but the framework is NL. Arctic Dave Mar 2013 #94
Chavez subsidized energy (oil, electric, gas, etc.) to keep it affordable for the population. xtraxritical Mar 2013 #85
The only people who think that's bad is neoliberal asshats. Arctic Dave Mar 2013 #90
Hear, hear! xtraxritical Mar 2013 #96
Chavism sounds like an abhorrent political system Sen. Walter Sobchak Mar 2013 #104
With $$$ comes temptation. Dash87 Mar 2013 #108
People often have a cartoonish view of politics in foreign countries Chathamization Mar 2013 #16
Sure. Are you just wondering if you're not alone? nt ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #17
pretty much not my business msongs Mar 2013 #18
Here! cherokeeprogressive Mar 2013 #19
Never was a fan. Throd Mar 2013 #20
Yeah, that's how I'm reacting. TDale313 Mar 2013 #21
Don't care one way or the other. n/t customerserviceguy Mar 2013 #22
I am sort of sad. n/t RebelOne Mar 2013 #23
Prominent South American political figure dies. Rex Mar 2013 #24
Hoping for the best for Venezuala on general principles bhikkhu Mar 2013 #25
Call me Mr. Ambivalent Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #26
I Admire A Guy That Pokes The First World In The Eye... WillyT Mar 2013 #27
What Willy said! donheld Mar 2013 #101
Wait...is Hugo Chavez dead? Let me check recent threads... TwilightGardener Mar 2013 #28
No opinion.. pipoman Mar 2013 #29
don't care Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #30
Not a huge deal to me. 99Forever Mar 2013 #31
Here tnlurker Mar 2013 #32
Checking in. GoCubsGo Mar 2013 #33
I'm neither celebrating nor shedding a tear. muntrv Mar 2013 #35
Checking in. cordelia Mar 2013 #36
Hand is up. MineralMan Mar 2013 #37
Don't care a bit elfin Mar 2013 #38
Yawn Lurks Often Mar 2013 #39
Indeed RZM Mar 2013 #40
Word. I'm not happy when someone dies, especially due to cancer. phleshdef Mar 2013 #41
Neutral - but concerned about the future of Venezuela LeftInTX Mar 2013 #42
He was just another in a long line of opportunistic politial operatives on this planet. A HERETIC I AM Mar 2013 #43
I don't do grave dancing & easttexaslefty Mar 2013 #44
I like that Rainngirl Mar 2013 #45
Meh ... takes too much energy for either one Bake Mar 2013 #46
No body lives forever...not even Hugo Historic NY Mar 2013 #47
Neither. Just trying to get by. nm rhett o rick Mar 2013 #48
*yawns* i'm here n/t southern_belle Mar 2013 #49
Meh solara Mar 2013 #50
Present. Oakenshield Mar 2013 #51
Here here. Zax2me Mar 2013 #52
Raising my hand. n/t ChazII Mar 2013 #53
He started out ok but went the way of most South America's leaders BellaLuna Mar 2013 #54
I wasn't a huge fan but he was far from the worst leader of a country. Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #55
I didn't even know he was dead. Jamaal510 Mar 2013 #56
Me either! nt raccoon Mar 2013 #106
Here! R.I.P. Milliesmom Mar 2013 #57
neither Tikki Mar 2013 #58
I'm waving a little flag of indifference. Shrike47 Mar 2013 #59
Neither. yellerpup Mar 2013 #60
El Sistema. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #99
Thanks for posting this re: El Sistema! yellerpup Mar 2013 #105
I am having a hard time... awoke_in_2003 Mar 2013 #61
Meh! nt SCVDem Mar 2013 #62
I quote Jimmy Carter jsr Mar 2013 #63
That was well said. Thanks for posting it. nt Mojorabbit Mar 2013 #78
like (NT) The Wizard Mar 2013 #88
Jimmy Carter is such a wise man Lifelong Protester Mar 2013 #110
Neither. liberalmuse Mar 2013 #64
Chavez was not a friend to a free press grantcart Mar 2013 #67
I'm am either/or or neither/nor just1voice Mar 2013 #65
Thanks, our grammar debate at work today was over possessive tenses. RB TexLa Mar 2013 #66
No strong feelings either way ... jb5150 Mar 2013 #68
Hugo Chavez libdude Mar 2013 #69
I am here. mecherosegarden Mar 2013 #71
Checking in nt MrScorpio Mar 2013 #72
Same here. iandhr Mar 2013 #73
*Raises Hand* "Here" BDavinciNY Mar 2013 #75
At Least He Survived ProgressiveJarhead Mar 2013 #76
Don't care either way madville Mar 2013 #79
I just think it's messed up that this is yet another Heather MC Mar 2013 #80
Yes, I'm in this category.... n/t Still Sensible Mar 2013 #81
here! mitchtv Mar 2013 #82
It's sad for his family Renew Deal Mar 2013 #83
... jmg257 Mar 2013 #84
not crying but do think it's sad that he died JI7 Mar 2013 #86
Raises hand. 840high Mar 2013 #89
I considered dancing on his grave Jeff In Milwaukee Mar 2013 #91
*shrug* n/t Tien1985 Mar 2013 #93
Of course it's neither. CBHagman Mar 2013 #95
The instrument has not been invented Seeking Serenity Mar 2013 #97
checking in rollin74 Mar 2013 #98
Present. Brigid Mar 2013 #100
Here. He was just another politician with a gift for publicity, neither entirely good or bad. friendly_iconoclast Mar 2013 #102
Moi. applegrove Mar 2013 #103
Here I am. HappyMe Mar 2013 #107
Venezulan statistics everyone SHOULD care about noiretextatique Mar 2013 #109
+1000. If you watch the live coverage Catherina Mar 2013 #111
I admit AsahinaKimi Mar 2013 #112
I think he was a good man for the most part...but I did not know him personally. alphafemale Mar 2013 #113
Present!! cliffordu Mar 2013 #114
I am concerned for the people of Venezuela. Chavez was good and bad, nt geek tragedy Mar 2013 #115
Not terribly invested here either.. n/t Sheepshank Mar 2013 #116
Yep... RevStPatrick Mar 2013 #117
checking in mike dub Mar 2013 #118
Present. Chavez did many good deeds and some that weren't good. He was a complex person. nt bluestate10 Mar 2013 #119

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,636 posts)
1. Raises hand...
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 08:52 PM
Mar 2013

There have been so many rumors about his death before that I'm not entirely convinced he's dead. It looks as though he probably is...

I don't know what to think about it.

 

Pararescue

(131 posts)
5. Checking in.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 08:53 PM
Mar 2013

I don't care either way, it doesn't impact my life at all.
I will say may he rest in peace and let history be his judge.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
9. Neutral is where I'm at
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 08:54 PM
Mar 2013

I don't follow the stuff that happens down there. Not sure it is any of my business either.

Generally, the only politics I'm interested in is what happens in the United States.

 

Prism

(5,815 posts)
11. Did some good, did some bad
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 08:56 PM
Mar 2013

Now let's wish for a peaceful and democratic transition for the people of Venezuela.

Warpy

(111,275 posts)
13. That'd be me
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 08:57 PM
Mar 2013

While I think reforms were badly needed there and I think he made a good start on instituting the most important one (land reform), they suffered from hamfisted implementation, poor backup with the paperwork new landowners needed to get loans for equipment and seed as just one example.

I also thought he was an odd duck, creating a cult of personality that makes a reasonable succession once he's out of the picture more difficult.

However, he was also much better than that country has had for many decades. I sincerely hope that what he started is allowed to progress, that the moneyed extreme right won't take over again. If they do, it will be tragic.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
15. Checking in.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 08:58 PM
Mar 2013

There is a need for change in Latin America from the way things are. Not sure that Chavism was the change that was needed.

Its also hard to tell if his economic policies were good or not. In a petroleum rich country, its hard to screw up the economy.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
70. I said hard, not impossible. If the leaders take all the money and stuff them in swiss bank accounts
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:09 PM
Mar 2013

then yes, they can screw it up.

 

Arctic Dave

(13,812 posts)
74. Unfortunately, it is all too tempting for most oil producing countries.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:15 PM
Mar 2013

Most former soviet republics are the same way.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
77. Agreed, but my point is, simply not being a thief doesn't mean you are an economic genius.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:21 PM
Mar 2013

It's going to seem that way if you are comparing an oil rich country under a thief vs an oil rich country not under a thief. That doesnt mean the non-thief leader has the right answers or the best answers for how to run an economy.

Chaves could have implemented supply side economics, regular liberal or neoliberal economics or socialism and as long as he wasn't stealing the oil revenue, the economy would have improved across the board.

 

Arctic Dave

(13,812 posts)
87. Neoliberal doesn't work either, Russia is a glaring example.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:40 PM
Mar 2013

Russian oil industries are as NL as you can get and all it did was make a few people insanely wealthy while the people who work for the companies get very little.

 

Arctic Dave

(13,812 posts)
94. True, there is more detail to it but the framework is NL.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:49 PM
Mar 2013

Notice how the US oil corps/oligarchs are unhappy with Putin for breaking up the party and reinjecting the state back into their industry.

 

xtraxritical

(3,576 posts)
85. Chavez subsidized energy (oil, electric, gas, etc.) to keep it affordable for the population.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:34 PM
Mar 2013

For the people he was a big step up from the dictators and capitalists that had oppressed them for century's. Much the same as average Cubans are much better off now than they ever were under Batista.

 

Arctic Dave

(13,812 posts)
90. The only people who think that's bad is neoliberal asshats.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:43 PM
Mar 2013

Using your resources for the benefit of the people is they way all of them should be managed.

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
108. With $$$ comes temptation.
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:58 AM
Mar 2013

They're especially susceptible to being kleptocratic and bribery, especially by foreign powers or business interests.

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)
16. People often have a cartoonish view of politics in foreign countries
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 08:58 PM
Mar 2013

and I'm sure I've been guilty of that on more than one occasion. So yes, from everything I've seen/read/heard I'd say that Chavez's legacy isn't a simple one.

TDale313

(7,820 posts)
21. Yeah, that's how I'm reacting.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:03 PM
Mar 2013

Feeling for the people, never glad to hear someone's passed, but no real strong feelings about the man.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
24. Prominent South American political figure dies.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:07 PM
Mar 2013

Hopefully they can find another leader as good, if not better. RIP Hugo.

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
25. Hoping for the best for Venezuala on general principles
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:10 PM
Mar 2013

but I don't know enough about the politics there to side with some faction or other. I'm not sure what the point would be anyway.

I had heard that Chavez was a good guy, and my only worry was that he'd wind up like a lot of well-intentioned leaders - a leader for life who trusted no one else to hold power. At least that's not a worry now, but to some extent a leader can be judged first by how he prepares others, and then how he lets those he led take charge as time passes, and then on how things go from there.

To lead is fine, but what did you lead to? Give it some time and we'll see - hoping for the best anyway.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
27. I Admire A Guy That Pokes The First World In The Eye...
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:11 PM
Mar 2013

Not crying, but I fear for the people of Venezuela...


 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
29. No opinion..
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:12 PM
Mar 2013

change will happen, it will either be better than with Chavez or worse, and I can accept the things I cannot change.

 

Lurks Often

(5,455 posts)
39. Yawn
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:23 PM
Mar 2013

People die everyday and I'm pretty certain a fair number of them were far, far better people then Hugo Chavez. Probably a few who were worse too.

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
41. Word. I'm not happy when someone dies, especially due to cancer.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:26 PM
Mar 2013

But I never saw Chavez as some great hero or some dastardly villain either way.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,370 posts)
43. He was just another in a long line of opportunistic politial operatives on this planet.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:35 PM
Mar 2013

Not unique, not particularly noteworthy and certainly not worth any more words on the subject, except to say this;

Anyone that dies at the age he did, died too young. Perhaps he had greater things to do. Only time will tell if Venezuela will be better or worse off with his passing.

My condolences to his family and to the people of Venezuela that loved him.

Bake

(21,977 posts)
46. Meh ... takes too much energy for either one
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:40 PM
Mar 2013

And frankly, I just don't give a damn. Neither fan nor foe of Mr. Chavez.

Bake

Oakenshield

(614 posts)
51. Present.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:55 PM
Mar 2013

From my understanding, he was an effective socialist leader who didn't mind calling the USA on its D-bag behavior. A great man really, but someone I would shed a tear for? Nope. I do feel sorry for his friends and family though, and the Venezuelan people.

 

Zax2me

(2,515 posts)
52. Here here.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:56 PM
Mar 2013

Though I do hear lower income people suffered under his regime, the news overall is a placebo to me.

BellaLuna

(291 posts)
54. He started out ok but went the way of most South America's leaders
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:58 PM
Mar 2013

Actually a shame - but his 'power' got to his head.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
55. I wasn't a huge fan but he was far from the worst leader of a country.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:01 PM
Mar 2013

Mostly he earned brownie points here for his "Bush is the devil" schtick.

yellerpup

(12,253 posts)
60. Neither.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:15 PM
Mar 2013

He supported the development of orchestra in public schools so he couldn't have been all bad.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
99. El Sistema.
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 12:43 AM
Mar 2013

Helps 100,000 poor kids learn an instrument from a very early age, learn teamwork and discipline, and stay away from gangs.

http://elsistemausa.org/el-sistema/venezuela/

Which has produced Gustavo Dudamel, new Music Director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic.



The Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela, conducted by Gustavo Dudamel, performing the Symphonic Dances from West Side Story:

yellerpup

(12,253 posts)
105. Thanks for posting this re: El Sistema!
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 08:59 AM
Mar 2013

I think this is the most remarkable program. It provides the opportunity for kids who would otherwise never have a chance to shine.

jsr

(7,712 posts)
63. I quote Jimmy Carter
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:26 PM
Mar 2013
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/05/world/americas/hugo-chavez-reaction/?hpt=hp_t1

Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter

"President Chavez will be remembered for his bold assertion of autonomy and independence for Latin American governments and for his formidable communication skills and personal connection with supporters in his country and abroad to whom he gave hope and empowerment. During his 14-year tenure, Chavez joined other leaders in Latin America and the Caribbean to create new forms of integration. Venezuelan poverty rates were cut in half, and millions received identification documents for the first time, allowing them to participate more effectively in their country's economic and political life.

"At the same time, we recognize the divisions created in the drive towards change in Venezuela and the need for national healing. We hope that as Venezuelans mourn the passing of President Chavez and recall his positive legacies -- especially the gains made for the poor and vulnerable -- the political leaders will move the country forward by building a new consensus that ensures equal opportunities for all Venezuelans to participate in every aspect of national life."

Lifelong Protester

(8,421 posts)
110. Jimmy Carter is such a wise man
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 05:40 PM
Mar 2013

I appreciate this post. Great summation, I believe.

Carter is the only President I have met in person. I liked him and am old enough to remember him in the WH. And I believe he was under appreciated.

liberalmuse

(18,672 posts)
64. Neither.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:30 PM
Mar 2013

I don't think he is a hero his Venezuelan press has made him out to be, and I don't think he is the villian our press has made him out to be.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
67. Chavez was not a friend to a free press
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:49 PM
Mar 2013
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=354416&CategoryId=10717

Deeply flawed but still had his good points.

The only thing that matters though is how the Venezuelan people react.

I hope that the divisions will be minimized and they can work for a more equitable and free society.

jb5150

(1,178 posts)
68. No strong feelings either way ...
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:56 PM
Mar 2013

I got all my grave dancing out of the way with Jerry Falwell, and I'm saving a nice bottle of champagne for Dick Cheney.

libdude

(136 posts)
69. Hugo Chavez
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:06 PM
Mar 2013

I hope his time of leadership was a benefit to all Venezuela. Condolences to his family, friends and the great people of Venezuela.

BDavinciNY

(95 posts)
75. *Raises Hand* "Here"
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:19 PM
Mar 2013

My very close friend who I adopted as my sister she is in the Army now really hates Hugo Chavez for taking some of her family's property down in Venezuela (Please don't ask she didn't go into detail!) Hugo Chavez was probably good to some of the poor in his country. Although I liked how he called Dumbya "The Devil" all those years ago (I think Chavez was really thinking about Dick Cheney not Dubya as Satan!) So as much Chavez may have rubbed some people the wrong way and was a savior to others in his life I will honor his passing by sending my condolences to his family and the people of Venezuela!

 

ProgressiveJarhead

(172 posts)
76. At Least He Survived
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:19 PM
Mar 2013

the US coup attempt against him in 2002. I don't feel good about the future of the country. They have oil.

 

Heather MC

(8,084 posts)
80. I just think it's messed up that this is yet another
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:26 PM
Mar 2013

country that uses American money to support their citizens but if we do that in the US it would be horrible, and people need to go buy bootstraps and then pull them up.

But Chavez's passing doesn't add a gray hair to my head.

rollin74

(1,976 posts)
98. checking in
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:56 PM
Mar 2013

I didn't much care for the guy. thought he was arrogant, childish and paranoid

he was the legitimate elected leader of his country and some of what he did was good for many in Venezuela

I can't manage to get worked up one way or the other about his passing





noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
109. Venezulan statistics everyone SHOULD care about
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 05:34 PM
Mar 2013

i think the working people of Venezula are indeed crying over losing Chavez.

• Unemployment has dropped from 14.5% of the total labour force in 1999 to 7.6% in 2009
• Population has increased from 23,867,000 in 1999 to 29,278,000 in 2011. The annual population growth was 1.5% in 2011 compared with 1.9% in 1999
• GDP per capita has risen from $4,105 to $10,801 in 2011
• As you can see in the graphic chart, Venezuela's inflation has fluctuated since 1999. Inflation now stands at 31.6% compared with 23.6% in 1999
• Venezuela has a complicated history concerning currency exchange rates. Compared with 1999 when the exchange rate was under one bolivar to the US dollar, the latest figures from Reuters place it at 4.3 Bolivars to one dollar
• Poverty has decreased - in 1999, 23.4% of the population were recorded as being in extreme poverty, this fell to 8.5% in 2011 according to official government figures
• Infant mortality is now lower than in 1999 - from a rate of 20 per 1,000 live births then to a rate of 13 per 1,000 live births in 2011
• Violence has been a key concern in Venezuela for some time - figures from the UNODC state that the murder rate has risen since 1999. In 2011 the intentional homicide rate per 100,000 population was 45.1 compared with 25.0 just twelve years earlier
• Oil exports have boomed - Venezuela has one of the top proven oil reserves in the world and in 2011 Opec put the country's net oil export revenues at $60bn. In 1999 it stood at $14.4bn

http://www.opeal.net/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=12577:how-has-venezuela-changed-since-hugo-chavez-took-power?

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
111. +1000. If you watch the live coverage
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 06:48 PM
Mar 2013

of them escorting his body to the Military Academy where it will rest before the funeral, they're indeed weeping. I've never ever seen such an outpouring of love for a leader.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xio7e2_globovision-en-vivo_news?start=27#.UTeB7TDXh8E

AsahinaKimi

(20,776 posts)
112. I admit
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 06:55 PM
Mar 2013

That I don't know much about this man, though I have seen his name posted many times here at DU or mentioned in the
news services. If I do follow foreign news, its mostly about what goes on in Japan, Korea, China, and other places in Asia.

 

alphafemale

(18,497 posts)
113. I think he was a good man for the most part...but I did not know him personally.
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 07:16 PM
Mar 2013

So I am not crying. I can't remember crying any serious tears over the death of a famous public figure...ever. Though I did cry like crazy when I came home from work about Sandy Hook after bottling that all day on the job.

And I really don't ever engage in grave dancing.

That is in really poor taste.

mike dub

(541 posts)
118. checking in
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 08:06 PM
Mar 2013

But I lean ever so slightly toward sad about his passing.

His socialism --- flat-out redistribution of some of his nation's wealth TO the poor (not stealing from them, ala regressive taxes, etc etc we have here in America) --- impresses me. And ironically, I only learned of his socialism After his passing (yesterday). Shows how little I knew about Venezuela, and Chavez.

I also liked that he was quoted as having said to his citizenry (in a major speech, I think) "I swear in front of you, my fellow Venezuelans..." (I forget what the following pledge was, but)
It was just Refreshing to hear a leader swear his word to his fellow Citizens --not GOD, for once.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Check in if you are neith...