General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCheck in if you are neither crying nor grave dancing over Hugo Chavez
Last edited Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:47 PM - Edit history (1)
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,636 posts)There have been so many rumors about his death before that I'm not entirely convinced he's dead. It looks as though he probably is...
I don't know what to think about it.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)BainsBane
(53,035 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)Pararescue
(131 posts)I don't care either way, it doesn't impact my life at all.
I will say may he rest in peace and let history be his judge.
bluedigger
(17,086 posts)He was neither a villain nor a saint.
mailman82
(399 posts)elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)I don't follow the stuff that happens down there. Not sure it is any of my business either.
Generally, the only politics I'm interested in is what happens in the United States.
appleannie1
(5,067 posts)Prism
(5,815 posts)Now let's wish for a peaceful and democratic transition for the people of Venezuela.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Consider my having checked in.
Warpy
(111,275 posts)While I think reforms were badly needed there and I think he made a good start on instituting the most important one (land reform), they suffered from hamfisted implementation, poor backup with the paperwork new landowners needed to get loans for equipment and seed as just one example.
I also thought he was an odd duck, creating a cult of personality that makes a reasonable succession once he's out of the picture more difficult.
However, he was also much better than that country has had for many decades. I sincerely hope that what he started is allowed to progress, that the moneyed extreme right won't take over again. If they do, it will be tragic.
NRaleighLiberal
(60,015 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)There is a need for change in Latin America from the way things are. Not sure that Chavism was the change that was needed.
Its also hard to tell if his economic policies were good or not. In a petroleum rich country, its hard to screw up the economy.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Having oil doesn't mean jack if it isn't for the good of the country.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)then yes, they can screw it up.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Most former soviet republics are the same way.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)It's going to seem that way if you are comparing an oil rich country under a thief vs an oil rich country not under a thief. That doesnt mean the non-thief leader has the right answers or the best answers for how to run an economy.
Chaves could have implemented supply side economics, regular liberal or neoliberal economics or socialism and as long as he wasn't stealing the oil revenue, the economy would have improved across the board.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Russian oil industries are as NL as you can get and all it did was make a few people insanely wealthy while the people who work for the companies get very little.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Notice how the US oil corps/oligarchs are unhappy with Putin for breaking up the party and reinjecting the state back into their industry.
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)For the people he was a big step up from the dictators and capitalists that had oppressed them for century's. Much the same as average Cubans are much better off now than they ever were under Batista.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Using your resources for the benefit of the people is they way all of them should be managed.
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Dash87
(3,220 posts)They're especially susceptible to being kleptocratic and bribery, especially by foreign powers or business interests.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)and I'm sure I've been guilty of that on more than one occasion. So yes, from everything I've seen/read/heard I'd say that Chavez's legacy isn't a simple one.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)msongs
(67,417 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)TDale313
(7,820 posts)Feeling for the people, never glad to hear someone's passed, but no real strong feelings about the man.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)RebelOne
(30,947 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Hopefully they can find another leader as good, if not better. RIP Hugo.
bhikkhu
(10,718 posts)but I don't know enough about the politics there to side with some faction or other. I'm not sure what the point would be anyway.
I had heard that Chavez was a good guy, and my only worry was that he'd wind up like a lot of well-intentioned leaders - a leader for life who trusted no one else to hold power. At least that's not a worry now, but to some extent a leader can be judged first by how he prepares others, and then how he lets those he led take charge as time passes, and then on how things go from there.
To lead is fine, but what did you lead to? Give it some time and we'll see - hoping for the best anyway.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)Not crying, but I fear for the people of Venezuela...
donheld
(21,311 posts)TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)I don't care about this at all.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)change will happen, it will either be better than with Chavez or worse, and I can accept the things I cannot change.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)Rest in peace.
tnlurker
(1,020 posts)GoCubsGo
(32,086 posts)muntrv
(14,505 posts)cordelia
(2,174 posts)May he rest in peace; condolences to his family and friends.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)I simply do not follow SA politics.
elfin
(6,262 posts)Don't even want their oil. Hope we have NOTHING to do with any aftermath.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)People die everyday and I'm pretty certain a fair number of them were far, far better people then Hugo Chavez. Probably a few who were worse too.
Always been ambivalent about him.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)But I never saw Chavez as some great hero or some dastardly villain either way.
LeftInTX
(25,375 posts)A HERETIC I AM
(24,370 posts)Not unique, not particularly noteworthy and certainly not worth any more words on the subject, except to say this;
Anyone that dies at the age he did, died too young. Perhaps he had greater things to do. Only time will tell if Venezuela will be better or worse off with his passing.
My condolences to his family and to the people of Venezuela that loved him.
easttexaslefty
(1,554 posts)I save my crying for people I know and love.
Rainngirl
(243 posts)he recognized that B*sh was the devil. Beyond that, I don't know a lot about him.
Bake
(21,977 posts)And frankly, I just don't give a damn. Neither fan nor foe of Mr. Chavez.
Bake
Historic NY
(37,451 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)southern_belle
(1,647 posts)Oakenshield
(614 posts)From my understanding, he was an effective socialist leader who didn't mind calling the USA on its D-bag behavior. A great man really, but someone I would shed a tear for? Nope. I do feel sorry for his friends and family though, and the Venezuelan people.
Zax2me
(2,515 posts)Though I do hear lower income people suffered under his regime, the news overall is a placebo to me.
ChazII
(6,205 posts)BellaLuna
(291 posts)Actually a shame - but his 'power' got to his head.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Mostly he earned brownie points here for his "Bush is the devil" schtick.
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)raccoon
(31,111 posts)Milliesmom
(493 posts)Tikki
(14,557 posts)Shrike47
(6,913 posts)I wish the people of Venezuela well and hope for peace.
yellerpup
(12,253 posts)He supported the development of orchestra in public schools so he couldn't have been all bad.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Helps 100,000 poor kids learn an instrument from a very early age, learn teamwork and discipline, and stay away from gangs.
http://elsistemausa.org/el-sistema/venezuela/
Which has produced Gustavo Dudamel, new Music Director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic.
The Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela, conducted by Gustavo Dudamel, performing the Symphonic Dances from West Side Story:
yellerpup
(12,253 posts)I think this is the most remarkable program. It provides the opportunity for kids who would otherwise never have a chance to shine.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)generating a "meh"
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)jsr
(7,712 posts)Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter
"President Chavez will be remembered for his bold assertion of autonomy and independence for Latin American governments and for his formidable communication skills and personal connection with supporters in his country and abroad to whom he gave hope and empowerment. During his 14-year tenure, Chavez joined other leaders in Latin America and the Caribbean to create new forms of integration. Venezuelan poverty rates were cut in half, and millions received identification documents for the first time, allowing them to participate more effectively in their country's economic and political life.
"At the same time, we recognize the divisions created in the drive towards change in Venezuela and the need for national healing. We hope that as Venezuelans mourn the passing of President Chavez and recall his positive legacies -- especially the gains made for the poor and vulnerable -- the political leaders will move the country forward by building a new consensus that ensures equal opportunities for all Venezuelans to participate in every aspect of national life."
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)Lifelong Protester
(8,421 posts)I appreciate this post. Great summation, I believe.
Carter is the only President I have met in person. I liked him and am old enough to remember him in the WH. And I believe he was under appreciated.
liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)I don't think he is a hero his Venezuelan press has made him out to be, and I don't think he is the villian our press has made him out to be.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)Deeply flawed but still had his good points.
The only thing that matters though is how the Venezuelan people react.
I hope that the divisions will be minimized and they can work for a more equitable and free society.
just1voice
(1,362 posts)but am not neither/or.
RB TexLa
(17,003 posts)jb5150
(1,178 posts)I got all my grave dancing out of the way with Jerry Falwell, and I'm saving a nice bottle of champagne for Dick Cheney.
libdude
(136 posts)I hope his time of leadership was a benefit to all Venezuela. Condolences to his family, friends and the great people of Venezuela.
mecherosegarden
(745 posts)and I am worry for my family down there.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)iandhr
(6,852 posts)BDavinciNY
(95 posts)My very close friend who I adopted as my sister she is in the Army now really hates Hugo Chavez for taking some of her family's property down in Venezuela (Please don't ask she didn't go into detail!) Hugo Chavez was probably good to some of the poor in his country. Although I liked how he called Dumbya "The Devil" all those years ago (I think Chavez was really thinking about Dick Cheney not Dubya as Satan!) So as much Chavez may have rubbed some people the wrong way and was a savior to others in his life I will honor his passing by sending my condolences to his family and the people of Venezuela!
ProgressiveJarhead
(172 posts)the US coup attempt against him in 2002. I don't feel good about the future of the country. They have oil.
madville
(7,412 posts)Insert next bogeyman, rinse, repeat.....
Heather MC
(8,084 posts)country that uses American money to support their citizens but if we do that in the US it would be horrible, and people need to go buy bootstraps and then pull them up.
But Chavez's passing doesn't add a gray hair to my head.
Still Sensible
(2,870 posts)mitchtv
(17,718 posts)RIP , I never got the truth from either side
Renew Deal
(81,861 posts)He was too young
JI7
(89,252 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)but then I remembered that I don't dance.
Tien1985
(920 posts)CBHagman
(16,986 posts)My main concern is what happens to Venezuela.
Seeking Serenity
(2,840 posts)that could measure the level of my indifference.
IOW, meh.
rollin74
(1,976 posts)I didn't much care for the guy. thought he was arrogant, childish and paranoid
he was the legitimate elected leader of his country and some of what he did was good for many in Venezuela
I can't manage to get worked up one way or the other about his passing
Brigid
(17,621 posts)Too many other things to get worked up about.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)applegrove
(118,685 posts)HappyMe
(20,277 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)i think the working people of Venezula are indeed crying over losing Chavez.
Unemployment has dropped from 14.5% of the total labour force in 1999 to 7.6% in 2009
Population has increased from 23,867,000 in 1999 to 29,278,000 in 2011. The annual population growth was 1.5% in 2011 compared with 1.9% in 1999
GDP per capita has risen from $4,105 to $10,801 in 2011
As you can see in the graphic chart, Venezuela's inflation has fluctuated since 1999. Inflation now stands at 31.6% compared with 23.6% in 1999
Venezuela has a complicated history concerning currency exchange rates. Compared with 1999 when the exchange rate was under one bolivar to the US dollar, the latest figures from Reuters place it at 4.3 Bolivars to one dollar
Poverty has decreased - in 1999, 23.4% of the population were recorded as being in extreme poverty, this fell to 8.5% in 2011 according to official government figures
Infant mortality is now lower than in 1999 - from a rate of 20 per 1,000 live births then to a rate of 13 per 1,000 live births in 2011
Violence has been a key concern in Venezuela for some time - figures from the UNODC state that the murder rate has risen since 1999. In 2011 the intentional homicide rate per 100,000 population was 45.1 compared with 25.0 just twelve years earlier
Oil exports have boomed - Venezuela has one of the top proven oil reserves in the world and in 2011 Opec put the country's net oil export revenues at $60bn. In 1999 it stood at $14.4bn
http://www.opeal.net/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=12577:how-has-venezuela-changed-since-hugo-chavez-took-power?
Catherina
(35,568 posts)of them escorting his body to the Military Academy where it will rest before the funeral, they're indeed weeping. I've never ever seen such an outpouring of love for a leader.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xio7e2_globovision-en-vivo_news?start=27#.UTeB7TDXh8E
AsahinaKimi
(20,776 posts)That I don't know much about this man, though I have seen his name posted many times here at DU or mentioned in the
news services. If I do follow foreign news, its mostly about what goes on in Japan, Korea, China, and other places in Asia.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)So I am not crying. I can't remember crying any serious tears over the death of a famous public figure...ever. Though I did cry like crazy when I came home from work about Sandy Hook after bottling that all day on the job.
And I really don't ever engage in grave dancing.
That is in really poor taste.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)I could give a shit.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)RevStPatrick
(2,208 posts)Sounds about right.
mike dub
(541 posts)But I lean ever so slightly toward sad about his passing.
His socialism --- flat-out redistribution of some of his nation's wealth TO the poor (not stealing from them, ala regressive taxes, etc etc we have here in America) --- impresses me. And ironically, I only learned of his socialism After his passing (yesterday). Shows how little I knew about Venezuela, and Chavez.
I also liked that he was quoted as having said to his citizenry (in a major speech, I think) "I swear in front of you, my fellow Venezuelans..." (I forget what the following pledge was, but)
It was just Refreshing to hear a leader swear his word to his fellow Citizens --not GOD, for once.