General Discussion

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts) Mon Mar 11, 2013, 01:13 PM Mar 2013

Paul Krugman is not on the Left. He's a centrist.

Here's the deal...

COMMUNISM — LIBERAL DEMOCRACY — MONARCHISM/FASCISM

This is the real political spectrum.

That is the Cold War political spectrum, wherein (at east in propaganda terms) America was reasonable and forms of government on either side of us were extreme.

When the Soviet Union fell apart (early 1990s), the Newt Gingrich takeover of Congress occurred pretty fast.

The spectrum was suddenly, on RW talk radio:

LIBERAL DEMOCRACY — EXTREME REPUBLICAN CONSERVATISM — MONARCHISM/FASCISM

But Communism still exists, and will always exist, as a political ideology, and Liberalism will always be centrist. Liberalism cannot plausibly be leftist because Liberalism is an alternative to popular revolution.

To an American in 1800, the spectrum was:

FRENCH REVOLUTION — AMERICA — ENGLISH MONARCHY

Liberal Democracy in the middle... where it always really is.

Every time I hear someone identify Paul Krugman with the left my head spins. He's a fucking Keynesian, for Pete's sake! He is a quintessential Liberal Democrat... a centrist and pragmatist.

He writes textbooks because his view of economics is conventional. It is not controversial in real economic circles. It is kind of boring in real economic circles.

He is the guy you have moderate a debate between an economic libertarian and a communist!

Perhaps the best thing that could happen for liberalism would be a reminder that Communism exists.

9 replies

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Paul Krugman is not on the Left. He's a centrist. (Original Post) cthulu2016 Mar 2013 OP

That's highly simplistic Spider Jerusalem Mar 2013 #1

Having been corrected about things I didn't say, cthulu2016 Mar 2013 #2

Sweden DonCoquixote Mar 2013 #3

I like the way Krugman sticks it to the RW, tho, altho it is not really a fair fight. CTyankee Mar 2013 #4

He IS a LIBERAL. That is part of the OP's point--that, yes, Krugman is a tblue37 Mar 2013 #5

well, these days "liberal" is just someone making a tenuous hold on center left policies. CTyankee Mar 2013 #6

Agree that Krugman isn't some sort of radical economist...... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #7

There IS no "Left" in the USA today. bvar22 Mar 2013 #8

And the problem is... ?!1 n/t UTUSN Mar 2013 #9

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)

1. That's highly simplistic

Reply to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Mon Mar 11, 2013, 01:22 PM

Mar 2013

constitutional monarchy is perfectly compatible with liberal democracy (see: the UK, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Belgium). Absolutist monarchy is something else again; at the time of the American war of independence? That political spectrum would have had France on the extreme right, France being a more classic absolutist monarchy; the process in Britain that began with Magna Carta and led on through the Glorious Revolution of 1688 created what was arguably the first constitutional monarchy; the vesting of actual power in the hands of Parliament created an effective representative democracy, although suffrage was limited...but then so it was in the newly-created USA for quite some time. (And the USA in 1812 was on the side of France, again, after Napoleon declaring himself emperor, I'm not sure how you square that circle to get to "America on the side of democracy".)

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)

2. Having been corrected about things I didn't say,

Reply to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 11, 2013, 01:52 PM

Mar 2013

I will take it to heart and continue to not say them.

Any three-point description of what Americans think the political spectrum is is simplistic, pretty much by definition. True.

And of course France was to the right of England in 1776. Nobody would or could question that.

A liberal democracy with a figurehead monarch is not a type of monarchy except in a hyper-literal taxonomic way.

I have never suggested in my life that America is always on the side of Democracies.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)

3. Sweden

Reply to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 11, 2013, 02:24 PM

Mar 2013

It is odd to hear people talk about the british Monarcy as a factor in making them more conservative, when Sweden is STILL a constitutional monarchy, and they are abpout as far left as you can do without a hammer and sickle. hell, one could argue they are further left than China at this point.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)

4. I like the way Krugman sticks it to the RW, tho, altho it is not really a fair fight.

Reply to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Mon Mar 11, 2013, 03:04 PM

Mar 2013

So I guess the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I suspect he is a pretty liberal guy on most social issues that I care about. But he has been correct on so many things, such as the need for more stimulus spending, that I can't get my head in the clouds over the question you raise. Having him on our side against folks like Joe Scarborough is nice. And his column is highly readable and online comments are quite intriguing.

But having taken only one Econ course (grad school level, but more of a philosophical approach) I must say there's some theories that I simply found a restatement of something that had already happened and working backwards to get an algebraic "confirmation" of it...

tblue37

(65,483 posts)

5. He IS a LIBERAL. That is part of the OP's point--that, yes, Krugman is a

Reply to CTyankee (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 11, 2013, 07:39 PM

Mar 2013

liberal, but that liberalism itself is not a far-left (extreme) ideology, but rather a centrist one.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)

6. well, these days "liberal" is just someone making a tenuous hold on center left policies.

Reply to tblue37 (Reply #5)

Mon Mar 11, 2013, 07:43 PM

Mar 2013

Republicans have blurred the lines. We're lucky to have Krugman. But he is not and will not be a politician, so look to others to lead the charge. There are some promising starts...just don't expect Krugman to be a part of that political charade. He is a better serving person for operating outside of electoral politics...

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)

7. Agree that Krugman isn't some sort of radical economist......

Reply to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Mon Mar 11, 2013, 07:50 PM

Mar 2013

As you said he's a Keynesian for God's sake. That's NOT radical, that's what was used to COUNTER the (classic) Reds.

Also agree STRONGLY with your last sentence.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)

8. There IS no "Left" in the USA today.

Reply to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Mon Mar 11, 2013, 09:28 PM

Mar 2013

...at least not a visible "Left".
What most refer to as "Fringe Leftists" at DU and on the talk shows are really
fairly mild, Mainstream-Center FDR/LBJ Pro-LABOR Democrats.

"In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be [font size=3]established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.[/font]

Among these are:

*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

*The right of the people to free, unimpeded travel.

*The right of every family to a decent home;

*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

*The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being."--- FDR, Economic Bill of Rights

Please note that FDR specified the above as Basic Human Rights to be protected and administered to Americans on an Equal Basis by our Government of the People,
and NOT as Commodities to be SOLD to Americans who can afford them by For Profit Corporations.

At one time, not so long ago, voting FOR "The Democrat" was voting FOR the above values.
Sadly, that is no longer true.

---bvar22
a Mainstream-Center FDR/LBJ Working Class Pro-LABOR Democrat.
Free Trading, Privatizing Paul Krugman is waaaaaay to The Conservative Right of me, a solid FDR Democrat.

UTUSN

(70,725 posts)

9. And the problem is... ?!1 n/t

Reply to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Mon Mar 11, 2013, 09:40 PM

Mar 2013

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