General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAbout that flag burning business & acts of violence by Occupiers--
If you think those re smart things to do, read this book & get back to us:
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Civil-Resistance-Works-Nonviolent/dp/0231156820/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328103486&sr=1-3
Combining statistical analysis with case studies of specific countries and territories, Erica Chenoweth and Maria J. Stephan detail the factors enabling such campaigns to succeed and, sometimes, causing them to fail. They find that nonviolent resistance presents fewer obstacles to moral and physical involvement and commitment, and that higher levels of participation contribute to enhanced resilience, greater opportunities for tactical innovation and civic disruption (and therefore less incentive for a regime to maintain its status quo), and shifts in loyalty among opponents' erstwhile supporters, including members of the military establishment.
Chenoweth and Stephan conclude that successful nonviolent resistance ushers in more durable and internally peaceful democracies, which are less likely to regress into civil war. Presenting a rich, evidentiary argument, they originally and systematically compare violent and nonviolent outcomes in different historical periods and geographical contexts, debunking the myth that violence occurs because of structural and environmental factors and that it is necessary to achieve certain political goals. Instead, the authors discover, violent insurgency is rarely justifiable on strategic grounds.
Robb
(39,665 posts)"When you talk about destruction, don't you know that you can count me out."
morningfog
(18,115 posts)From an interview:
"I wanted to put what I felt about revolution; I thought it was time we fuckin spoke about it, the same as I thought it was about time we stopped not answering about the Vietnamese War when we were on tour with Brian Epstein and had to tell him, Were going to talk about the war this time and were not going to just waffle. I wanted to say what I thought about revolution.
I had been thinking about it up in the hills in India. I still had this God will save us feeling about it, that its going to be all right (even now Im saying Hold on, John, its going to be all right, otherwise, I wont hold on) but thats why I did it, I wanted to talk, I wanted to say my piece about revolution. I wanted to tell you, or whoever listens, to communicate, to say What do you say? This is what I say.
On one version I said Count me in about violence, in or out, because I wasnt sure. But the version we put out said Count me out, because I dont fancy a violent revolution happening all over. I dont want to die; but I begin to think what else can happen, you know, it seems inevitable.
* * *
WENNER:
You dont really believe that we are headed for a violent revolution?
LENNON:
I dont know; Ive got no more conception than you. I cant see... eventually itll happen, like it will happenit has to happen; what else can happen? It might happen now, or it might happen in a hundred years, but...
WENNER:
Having a violent revolution now might just be the end of the world.
LENNON:
Not necessarily. They say that every time, but I dont really believe it, you see. If it is, OK, Im back to where I was when I was 17 and at 17 I used to wish a fuckin earthquake or revolution would happen so that I could go out and steal and do what the blacks are doing now. If I was black, Id be all for it; if I were 17 Id be all for it, too. What have you got to lose? Now Ive got something to lose. I dont want to die, and I dont want to be hurt physically, but if they blow the world up, fuck it, were all out of our pain then, forget it, no more problems!
WENNER:
You sing, Hold on world...
LENNON:
I sing Hold on John, too, because I dont want to die. I dont want to be hurt, and please dont hit me.
WENNER:
You think by holding on it will be all right?
LENNON:
Its only going to be all rightits now, this moment. Thats all right this moment, and hold on now; we might have a cup of tea or we might get a moments happiness any minute now, so thats what its all about, just moment by moment; thats how were living, cherishing each day and dreading it, too. It might be your last dayyou might get run over by a carand Im really beginning to cherish it. I cherish life."
http://www.jannswenner.com/Archives/John_Lennon_Part2.aspx
Of course, he went on to remove any question with "All we are saying is give peace a chance."
I just thought his wrestling with whether real change can happen without ultimately reaching violence is not all that different from conversations being had today. He doesn't endorse violence, but doesn't necessarily see a revolution without it. In the end, he loves his life and doesn't want to die. I feel the same way. It isn't worth shedding blood, mine, ours, theirs, anybodies. It hasn't got to that point, yet. I hope it doesn't.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)And yeah, I was sad the day John Lennon died.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)The two are NOT the same and shouldn't be equated.
inna
(8,809 posts)and not coming from the protesters.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Some minor property damage isnt in the same category. It still isnt good strategically.
Hitting someone with a baton can cause permanent injury. Breaking Starbucks windows wont bother Starbucks one bit but will be equated with the brutality by the police by the OWS haters.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)violence, is petty vandalism at best.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)and I think smashing a shop's windows, which you seem to be advocating here, goes beyond "minor property damage".
It may not be as bad, on some sort of violence severity scale, as police assault on protesters. But "not as bad" doesn't make it acceptable.
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)windows. What I am advocating is perspective. Those here that hate OWS protestors will ignore the police brutality and raise bloody hell when a window is broken or something is thrown at the police.
The police tactics of brutality way beyond what is necessary is aimed at intimidation against protests. This is terrorism.
If corporations can use money as an exercise of their free speech, why cant The People use peaceful protests as free speech?
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)They are equated in the popular political mind.
And if you read my subject line and do a careful syntactic analysis, you will note that I didn't equate them.
Flag burning is generally taken to mean "I hate America." And if you think that is a good message for the Occupy movement to send, then maybe you ought to spend some time thinking about the issue.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)handle on the popular mind is somewhat telling. The only people I know who think such are conservatives, be they Dem or Repub, they're conservatives.
I am not, we will therefore not agree. But my experience tells me that your broad brush about how people feel about flag burning couldn't be true or there'd be a law against it. There's not one currently.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)That good enough for you? I generally have reasonable information behind my "broad-brush" assertions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_Desecration_Amendment
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)so I guess 2/3 wouldn't. Seems it didn't even get out of the Senate most of the time.
#2. Just because it's popular doesn't make it right, and with the margin of error, I'd imagine we're actually closer to 50/50.
#3. In June 2006, things were dramatically different in most every American's mind than they are now.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)it used to represent. IMO.
randome
(34,845 posts)Because, you know, they never said why. Kind of hard to see a protest under than lens, isn't it?
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
dionysus
(26,467 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)In regards to flag burning, I imagine it comes down to whether one believes that branding, perception and popularity holds a higher priority, or if maintaining the courage of our own convictions is more important.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)I see flag desecration as detrimental to the cause. Sorry.