Why the "My bad sex wasn't rape" editorial is so utterly, utterly vile.
So, this was posted: http://www.salon.com/2013/03/22/my_bad_sex_wasnt_rape/
I'm going to try to break down why this was so disgustingly, sickeningly wrong.
I say "try", because to do so properly would take a lot more time, because there is a shit ton of crap to sift through here.
First of all, let's take the verbiage she uses. Stuff like this:
Does that sound neutral to you? Sure doesn't sound that way to me. I've heard that terminology used many times, and never by anyone who respected women.
Let's move on.
This short passage gives us a lot to analyze. She lost her virginity at 15, and two weeks later is in a threesome. While drunk for the first time. But hey, it was only somewhat miserable, so she's lucky, I guess.
So yeah, that's not worthy of analysis at all, I'm sure. Surely not, in a culture in which young women are conditioned from birth to see their worth and value in their looks and sexual desirability. Messages which this particular woman started learning way too early, earlier than other girls who aren't introduced to that world... way too early. No, let's just pretend that she's perfectly reasonable to dismiss her desire to have sex when she didn't really want to in order to please males with a handwave. Cause really, how is that meaningful, right?
And let's just skip over fact that so many people here have been focusing like a laser on the idea that since it's not illegal everywhere for 15 year olds to have sex with 19 year olds, none of this is questionable at all. Let's assume that she was in one of those places where it was legal, and let's pretend that it is also meaningless that she was drunk for the first time, or that she had lost her virginity 14 days earlier and was now involved in her first threesome.
And let's also skip the part where she was sexually abused from 4 to 9. And let's also skip the part about her acting out with an old man in her neighborhood at age 12, engaging him in phone sex. For all we know, she considers this acting out part of her "agency" and exploring her own sexuality, so let's just leave that aside.
Let's just skip to the part about her not thinking it was rape. You know what? Good for her. I'm really happy for her that she doesn't feel victimized, and wasn't traumatized. That's nice for her.
But she isn't the only woman in the world, and for her to be pushing the idea that drunk 15 year olds are fair game is, frankly, beyond fucked up. We all know that teens will have sex when they want to. But the fact is that rapists use alcohol to rape. Her muddying the waters on this issue by pretending her experience is somehow noteworthy is bullshit.
So she didn't feel like she was raped, big fucking deal! A whole hell of a lot of women who first had sex at 15 don't feel like they were raped. A whole hell lot of a women who first had sex at 12 don't feel like they were raped either. No one is out there telling women that they have to feel that they were raped if they don't feel that way. Because if they don't, that's their prerogative.
No, what's important is reaching the tens of thousands of women each year who do feel that they were raped. What is important is reaching the women who do feel that they were raped but who still aren't reporting it. And what this person is doing is not fucking helping.
No, what she is doing is playing into the hands of MRAs and victim blamers who want to silence women. More on that later.
"Whether" it was too sympathetic? Really? "Whether"?
"Perhaps" they went too far?
Telling, yes? Yes. Let's move on.
No, no it doesn't. Victim-blaming relies on bullshit ideas. For example, the one where some people like to trumpet the idea that women claim they were raped just because they didn't enjoy the sex, or they regretted it later. (Sound familiar? It should. Because Anna trumpeted that shit herself, in this piece of shit editorial. Good work, Anna!)
Yeah, that's a huge problem, taking women at their word. She's so brave to stick her neck out on this. Rapists and MRAs everywhere are so grateful a woman has finally had the courage to come out in a (supposedly) progressive publication and say that since women VERY RARELY lie about being raped, that makes it "not helpful" to label rape as rape, just because a woman says she was raped.
So great to see this being praised here on DU, really.
Yet another attempt to give credence to the victim-blaming lies that rape culture finds so comforting. I imagine, given what she said about the coverage of the Steubenville rapists, that the writer probably has all kinds of empathy for rapists in college.
Seeing a pattern here?
Yes, the BDSM community, where rape is even more common than in the so-called "vanilla" community. What stinking, stupid bullshit.
I guess that's gonna have to be enough. I'm not willing to spend the time that would be necessary to really expose every ounce of steaming shit in this thing.
= new reply since forum marked as read
in a toxic family seems to guarantee that you -- the survivor of the dangerous and damaging environment within which you should have known only love, trust, and healthy nurturing -- will be labeled the "bad girl"!
In my toxic family, I have been labeled the seductress, and BLAMED for my sick perp's actions, despite the fact I was a child when he molested me.
I am estranged from most of my family, because the pain is still too big. It's overwhelming.
I usually ask survivors if I can give a hug. I hope you will accept this one from a kindred survivor.
Lets hear it for us "bad" girls who agitate for change and justice! 
Last edited Fri Nov 24, 2023, 04:34 PM - Edit history (12)
I don't see how it can be anything but intentional...(S)uch oversimplification only feeds rape culture...(T)he kind of reactionary simplistic bullshit...used...to dumb down issues...By glossing over her first "bad sex" being at the age of four via her father, Ann March paints a grossly oversimplified and hypocritically false self-portrait that also falls light years short of the most basic of journalistic standards -- which Salon should have noticed.
Either March is sicker than anyone realizes, or she's "intentionally" stirring up controversy just to help sell her forthcoming book.
rocktivity
I saw myself in her acting out as well.
And I'm sorry... I know it's so hard sometimes... I hope the other part of you, the hopeful part, triumphs. 
Sharing our stories is very important. Shame is something we need to get rid of forever.
I'll hug you and that little girl too.
and to hell with those here that want to dismiss the pain, we have each other and fuck em all they can all go to hell.
First, I hope you regain some health and hope.
Second, and this is related, though it's not your illness.
I have struggled with fibromyalgia et al. (it's a cluster) for well over half my life, and a few years ago my sister sent me some links regarding childhood sexual abuse and the incidence of fibromyalgia in the survivors. It's enormous. In the few years since then, many more articles have been written, too many for me to sort and reference at the moment. Just Google "fibromyalgia + sexual abuse" if interested.
Childhood abuse is the "gift" that just keeps on giving.
out to you and all abuse victims.
you for sharing. Despite the mockery and dismissivness that rape victims face here, know that what you share here may be helping someone reading your experience. You are so brave.
I am going to watch "Mega Disasters" on TV to cheer myself up now.
on a "liberal" message board (and even in this thread) is difficult, but discovering brave souls like you brings comfort and makes it worth wading through the nasty mockery and eye rolling.
with a strange compulsion to taunt rape victims, I wouldn't know of your existence.
That kind of behavior leaves an impression. But I realize the horror you face at having to encounter discussions of women being raped far exceeds the actual crime of rape. Poor you. 
I hope some day you'll be able to get past the trauma women have so cruelly inflicted on you.
Oh dear. How tragic for you. How ever will you survive such a trauma? 
you poor thing
Rape survivors are victimizing HIM.
I loved the Cheetos comment. 
for telling you that posting popcorn emoticons in response to a woman talking about her experience of being raped is callous. Yes, that is tragic. And here you thought you could get a laugh at someone's expense and not be called out on it, but now several women have told you what they think. No wonder you feel so victimized. 
post. Way to go, DU!! Let the women-hate continue!
oh wait... we don't even get that.
We get continual goading and mocking on the issue of rape.
Thanks, Boss! I'll be sure to send a little extra something for you by paypal!
It's crystal clear where we stand here, isn't it? Rock on, dudes! ( I would love to ask the owner here how he'd feel if his daughter was ridiculed and scorned while everyone ate popcorn and laughed at her, but from reading another thread it seems he only has sons.)
right in front of you? Don't they know you don't allow any voicing of women's issues on a Democratic website. Imagine having to share the world with women who don't think rape is a fun. What is the world coming to.
You want the women to talk in the kitchen because greater DU is man space.
Do you feel threatened by women (and their allies) supporting other women right out here in the open?
to get underage girls drunk and have sex with them is perfectly find, but daring to criticize that is flame bait? 
Indeed
Wonder if this will be alerted on too. #thoughtpolice
That nasty insult is shitty anywhere.
In a thread like this, it is fucking disgusting. Be proud.
And thanks for showing us all your true colors.
Did someone call you out on your bullshit?
This is GD, not some protected group where crap like asserting too much porn leads to pedophilia is met with "you go sister!"
Obviously, you know the assertion that too much porn can lead to pedophilia is bullshit or you wouldn't be so desperate to not address it when called out on it.
following me around and claiming things I didn't say, but what your mind thinks it hears.
find your own research, I'm not your school marm and I have nothing to prove to you. 
but you're not.
now that deserves a hearty
I don't think calling out your bullshit assertions is clever, but thanks for the compliment!
Here's what really deserves a though...
The idea, promoted by you, that too much porn leads to pedophilia!
or adult gay sex with pedophilia.
It's ludicrous, but that doesn't stop would-be moral crusaders with an agenda from trying to conflate them.
They're totally different things, and it's an obvious, flailing act of desperation on the part of the people who can't string together a coherent moral argument against the consenting adult stuff beyond "we don't like it"
(or, more often than not, "I told my husband 3 times to stop looking at it and yet I keep finding it on the computer" ... 
)
Anything involving anyone under 18 is very illegal, and rightfully so. But the assertion that the 95% or so of humans who, at one time or another, like to look at pictures or films other adults either naked or having sex, are somehow dancing down the yellow brick road towards child abuse- it's absurd, and it's not borne out by any actual evidence. Instead, the places where we have seen entrenched communities and enabling of things like child abuse are places like the Vatican--- Hardly adult porn central.
"The idea that what happened in Steubenville, with Natalia on “Girls,” and with me in the park 30 years ago are all rape is ridiculous. "
maybe you should have read the article before snarking
How could she equate her rapist father with a first lover? Very sad.
What happened to me would not have been called rape back in the 70s. I was drunk and went out with him willingly, so really, what did I expect?
Those of us born with the disgusting gash instead of the glorious godpenis deserve whatever happens to us don'tcha know....
And I'm glad I could help.
and for your willingness to stick your hand in the meat grinder once again.
you made me laugh with that "meat grinder" comment... so true, so true.
I'm glad you found it helpful.
It can be so triggering, and so hard not to reply based in emotion. But if you do that, that will be used as an excuse to dismiss what you say, and refuse to examine the content of your message.
It's going to be a long fight but I am sure not giving up.
Here's an example of their handiwork. Mocking a successful campaign to reduce rape in Canada in order to push their rape-culture-enabling lies.
...you had to go to the trouble of creating an account here? Wow, now that is real suffering!
You perhaps did not read that the author of this "eloquent, well written deeply personal story" neglected to mention her own very relevant history of being sexually abused by her own father. Oh, but he was her "first lover", she says. She obviously has a better sense of nuance than us strident feminists, eh?
She states that she was not raped when she drunkenly agreed to a threesome with two 19-year-olds, even though she was only 15 and was drunk for the first time. Well, it is certainly her prerogative to decide how she views that occurrence. But she is arguing that others should make that same judgment, that it was just "bad sex". IOW, if another 15-year-old gets drunk for the first time and is taken advantage of by two 19-year-old boys, she should just STFU and live with it. That is what she is arguing: that if a young teenage girl has exercised bad judgment and a couple of older boys (men by law) decide to take advantage, that is her fault.
Excuse me but I find that attitude wrong on so many levels. I believe this author is very misguided and confused about the issue of rape, and the fact that Salon would publish this tripe is outrageous. It continues to muddy the waters rather than shedding light, and it continues to blame the victim.
Perhaps you should examine your own attitudes. You actually went to all the trouble to create an account here just so you could wag your finger at those of us who found the article offensive? Well excuse me while I
thanks for a much needed belly laugh, Sheldon Cooper.
bawhahahahahahah!
Sometimes things are buried so deep in our cells and tissues that we can't really get at them altogether, mentally or emotionally. Thanks to everyone who has shared on this thread. I'm sitting here in tears.
For the hug and for your posts.
For posting stuff like this:
http://radtransfem.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/under-duress-agency-power-and-consent-part-one-no/
http://radtransfem.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/under-duress-agency-power-and-consent-part-two-yes/
Everything I post about consent leads to MORE considerate treatment of the intricacies of human interaction, yet that same comment you made about not belonging at this site was directed at me, for those kinds of links.
Really makes one think. 
Last edited Tue Feb 22, 2022, 03:36 PM - Edit history (16)
is like Catholic religious instruction from Madonna.
It makes a mockery of Salon's journalistic standards that Marsh does not detail her early childhood sexual experiences or factor in how they might effect her current opinions -- surely it puts her most basic level of objectivity into question.
Either she's suffering the worst case of denial ever, or she's media whoring (if you'll pardon the expression) to draw attention to her upcoming book.
rocktivity
as if we should have some kind of quota, I guess.
If he's talking about this editorial then yeah. AFAIK its only been posted twice, which... hell, lots of things are posted twice or more, so 
Is referring to rape and child sexual abuse.
It's okay to have tens of thousands of OPs about important matters like the economy but these "whiny beyotch" posts gotta go away NOW. The menfolk are talking and it's time for us c*nts to shut up already. Don'tcha get it????!!!!
We ain't welcome here. Not if we challenge the male privilege of being able to rape without us confronting them over it and being angry! Good girls NEVER get angry, you know the rules....
are interpreted as "bashing" or "browbeating" men, or as "man hating".
And the people who use that kind of term to describe such discussions never seem to catch on that few others perceive these discussions in that way.
You'd think that might kick off some much needed self-reflection...
I don't think they should even fantasize about it, because climaxing to shit like that is associating the violent hatred of women with orgasm in their minds.
Christ, what a fucked up thought.
Not all men have fantasies about rape and child abuse! Cripes almighty what a terrifying thing for a *police officer* to say!
certain types can leave permanent marks. I believe it is also possible for the self-aware to know the effect of that kind of stuff and to recognize the warp that it produces in what one say, thinks, feels, etc. . . a compensation that balances things out as much as is possible under whatever circumstances, though, obviously, not perfectly.
It is a true thing about any form of science, amongst those who love rationalism, that knowing is always only relative to the context that produces the knowledge. Lots of people don't know that to scientists all statements of "fact" also refer to their own biases, because, though controllable, those biases are actually unavoidable, so real knowledge is always relative to, always recognizes, it's own skew.
I hope I get a chance to ask my niece, who does this kind of counseling for a living up in Vermont. She was quite a wild child herself not so long ago, so maybe she can shed some light on what we have been talking about here tonight.
I have read ever one of your post in this thread. I want to give you a and to let you know I hear you!
Do you know about the new support group here on DU? You might want to check it out. You are not alone.
That it has been approved as a way to kind of restrict us wimmin to one little corner where the Menzies don't have to be bothered by us hysterical types whining about rape and child abuse and other unimportant topics like that.
I don't start threads about this but I also don't leave blatant ignorance and misogyny unchallenged. I never have. Anywhere I've gone. I have always fought back.
So far, it seems to be a safe haven for members to be able to tell their stories, get support, or just give support.
I definitely was not trying to shut you up. Not by a long shot. I am glad to see you speaking out. From reading you, I just got a feeling (and I really know better than to try to put feelings to other's words usually)that you may be able to offer support to some in the group, or get support.
I really meant nothing bad by it at all.
Thanks.
That's very kind of you to say.
Response to redqueen (Original post)
It's too bad you don't have the courage to post this under your real username.
On edit - in case someone alerts:
RedAngellion (1 post)
361. Bad sex isn't rape. But rape is rape.
Last edited Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:27 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
"RedQueen is angry at the world and clearly has an axe to grind; contrary to what militant feminists may like to believe, there ARE women who will spread their legs for anyone, and their ARE women who will cry "rape" for reasons other than their having actually been raped. Let's be realistic; it may not be rampant but it does happen.
Having said that, the situation Anna March described was rape. Getting a girl drunk so that you can have sex with her? That's fuckin' rape. Now, what if a couple of people innocently have a few too many and end up having sex? Is that rape because she was drunk? Is it rape because HE was drunk? No. At least, not necessarily. But that's not what was going on. I wasn't there, but you can be pretty sure these two guys knew exactly what they were doing; they took this girl to a remote location, got her wasted, and took advantage. That's rape.
Now, I know this will cause a lot of butthurt, but there's a sliding scale of rape. Is what these boys did as bad as, say, dragging a stranger into a dark alley and having your way with them? No. It's towards the less egregious end of the rape scale. But still egregious and still rape. She should've reported it and had them prosecuted.
I don't, as Anna suggests, "feel empathy for teenagers convicted of rape;" namely because I've never raped anyone. Sympathy, maybe, but even then I'd be hard-pressed. I mean, there's a baseline amount of sympathy you feel for anyone in prison; even Ted Bundy. You think, "wow, it's sad that he's so fucked up," and then you lock his ass up and throw away the key because he fucking raped and killed a bunch of people.
By the way, I've gathered from other replies that Anna March was apparently raped by her father at age 4? That explains a lot, and pretty much guarantees that the incident with the two boys was rape. She'd have been the perfect victim by then. It also explains the sickening fact that she remained friends with the two boys into adulthood. What the fuck? The guys that got you drunk in the park and said "Oh, who cares - if you get pregnant it's your fault," as they raped you? You kept these guys around as buddies? But again, it all goes back to the rape by her father - not surprising at all when you look at it in that context. I'm sure she was raped before and after this incident in the park.
Tl;dr: Bad sex isn't rape. But Anna March was raped."
yep. smells like it.
of taunting and mocking rape victims - their fellow DUers - and it's so hurtful to know that juries will allow such mockery to stand.
For this thread, important.
And for many other things here.
Sorry, I thought I replied to you yesterday. 
I'm glad you found the OP worthwhile.
