and leave it at that

Michigan is a mess.

I have and my fathers old company did.

BOTH companies got so frustrated with that city that they issued strict no dealings in Detroit policies.

That city has been a mess for thirty plus years.

I just want the people of that city to finally have a chance.I don't give a shit how it happens.What has been there for thirty plus years has been a disaster of mismanagement and incompetence.

There are LOTS of answers to problems. When you give up and let the WORST idea take over, you lose!

nothing has worked.The city just keeps getting worse.The governance of that city if a DISASTER

When Dennis Archer was mayor, things did improve in Detroit and it is possible or a good leader to resolve the city' problems. Your experience was many many years ago and you really don't know how business is currently run by the city. Obviously there are people/companies doing business with the city successfully as the city is not totally desolate. The city has a lot of problems, but I resent you coming here and only offering complaints.

in anticipation of the ethnic cleansing to come.

in terms of how 'frustrated companies' get dealing with it. Ya know, rather than in terms of PEOPLE.

You obviously have never dealt with that city.It was a NIGHTMARE....you simply can't work with that city.

You are really putting the thread title into perspective.

Yay capitalism, screw democracy. I get it.

And quit implying I know nothing about the city of Detroit (and more importantly ITS PEOPLE).

tell me.

I'll give you my experiences after

Not playing. Not about me or you, really, is it Bob?

Behind your words is approval of removing whatever semblance of democracy remains there and letting a corrupt corporate asshole much like a fascist dictator run the city. Regardless of your or my experience with the city and it's people, we know where you stand. You think the EM is a good thing. That's all I need to know.

Does Detroit need change? Are its people struggling? Yes. But that sure as shit doesn't mean that EM is the answer.

yet you know better than me...someone who had EXTENSIVE dealing with that city...what is best for it?

I could give you dozens of personal nightmares of trying to deal with that city...and so could my fathers company

I'm done. I'm not giving you my resume or the story of my life here and I don't give a shit about yours. It has no bearing on this situation. And the fact that you think it is relevant speaks volumes about you and confirms what I have been saying.

Your words speak for themselves.

The last word is yours.

you dont give a shit.I LOVE that city and want it to succeed,You don't give a shit about that city and use it as a pummel to further an agenda

Much as how only WW2 veterans may objectively analyze the way rather than historians...

Good thing your analysis is devoid of bias and subjectivity, or else no one would take you seriously, and would possibly believe you you be an idiot.

inquiring minds want to know

it's a nightmare of corruption and mismanagement

...you complain w/o ANY details, decrying any and all kind(s) of working relationship(s) with the city, offering NO reasons why, then what, "Bob"?, did you move the brokenhearted, frustrated company?, to where?, or did you have to go out of business, "Bob"? What KIND of business, "Bob"? Did this alleged "frustrated company" not get it's big ol' tax abatement, "Bob"? EXACTLY what was it, "Bob"? You know the words, "Bob", yet you are tone deaf to who pays the Band. Yep, I saw it w/ mine own eyes, and THIS inquiring mind knew the answer once you posted the first time. You DO sound like a "bidnessman", "Bob". Got sense?, or is that cents, "Bob"? Most here have never dealt with a dirty, lowdown, corrupt, rotten to the core, disingenuous city, "Bob", but these good citizens know life from bullshit, (the meter is pegging), they will eat you're lunch and leave you with a plate of crow, in fact, a couple of 'em just DID!, now eat your sour grapes, "Bob".

what ties do you have to that city???

I would LOVE for that city to succeed...I have family there.

What ties do you have to that city?

its government.

as we know quite well, big corporations can buy government when it suits them.

no. they left for other reasons, as is demonstrated by the widespread abandonment of urban areas, and even of the US, by manufacturing during the same time frame.

If people HERE refuse to get it in the face of a flat-out TAKEOVER, and pretend it's all about helping Detroit, then surely the plutocrats have nothing to fear from the citizenry.

Edit: I actually meant to put this in reply to your #77, but I suppose anywhere in this thread would be as fit as anywhere else.

It didn't happen overnight or in the span of a few election cycles. Detroit did this to Detroit. If they wanted something better they should have voted for it.

Sorry to see the shabby treatment you are getting from some DUers here. Some people just cannot help but lash out at anyone who does not agree with them. I like to think of DU as a place where you can expect more nuanced discussion and argument over difficult issues like this. The kind of binary thinking behind "You love capitalism and hate democracy!" is the sort of garbage that belongs in RW shout-fests.

Sadly, democracy has been failing in Detroit for decades. It would be one thing if Detroit existed in a sort of economic vacuum and it were a simple matter of "C'est la vie - let them do what they will," but the gross mismanagement of the city has been a tremendous economic drag on the entire state for a long time.

I'm not thrilled with the Republican establishment that is behind this push at the state level, but at the same time I am not going to shed any tears over the ousting of a city council so rife with corruption and incompetence that it is at times jaw-dropping. They've been shooting holes in the bottom of the boat for too long and it's time to take that gun away from them before we all drown.

it's just a game here now...a game of winning threads.It doesn't matter if we lose a beautiful city like Detroit as long as we win the thread and make a point.

I could literally give hundreds of examples of that city being so mismanaged that it wasn't worth the work to bother...but some here will say it was all my fault for not dealing with the mismanagement of that city

Peddle that "not thrilled, but at the same time" bullshit elsewhere.

active than it really is?

The poster has 98 posts. maybe he's skinner is disguise, but i don't know that.

Is it that I am wrong because I have not posted a lot?
Or you just know that I am a spammer because...well, because you just know.

At least put in the effort to construct a strawman or something.
Better yet, contribute to the actual discussion topic instead of just bullying.

At best, the city has been governed by morons for a long time. It's time for adult supervision.

As a practical matter, does it really make much difference? The city has no tax base and no ability to borrow more money. At the same time, it owes billions. Without an emergency manager, it would only be a matter of time (and not a long time) before the city went into default and had to declare bankruptcy. When that happened, a judge would be in charge and union contracts would still be broken and assets would still be sold off. No difference that I can see.

Blind leading the deaf and dumb.

Just pointing out that our "discussion partner" is, shall we say...unsatisfactory?

DU is thick with it. Ignore the commercials.

...need to adjust me filters.

'Orr is a bankruptcy expert who represented automaker Chrysler LLC during its successful restructuring. He will take control of Detroit's beleaguered finances, including a $327 million budget deficit and $14 billion in long-term debt. . .

"Hopefully (bankruptcy is) not imminent at all," Orr said. . .

In addition to his work with Chrysler -- for which Orr billed $1 million in fees during the first year of the restructuring of the smallest of the three major U.S. automakers -- Orr has other Michigan ties. He received both graduate and law degrees from the University of Michigan.

The emergency manager will face the huge and controversial task of repairing the finances of a city in crisis. Detroit has run operating deficits for nearly a decade, is starved of cash and facing a crushing burden of debt from commitments such as pensions and health insurance.'

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/bankruptcy-expert-named-manage-detroits-financial-crisis-1C8873346

I'm more familiar with DC's historically miserable public school 'system,' forcing us to send our daughters to private schools, so I am able to recognize a need for dramatic solutions than others may be. I'm also able to recognize the difference between good solutions and those that may not be as good.

Best wishes to Detroit and to Mr. Orr, who seems to have what it takes.

I believe that the President should send federal troops to Detroit to restore a republican form of government. The emergency financial manager is a dictator governing without the consent of the governed. It is Mr. Orr who is governing without authority. The people remain sovereign, now and forever. It's too bad Governor Snyder doesn't like the decisions the people. I don't always like them, either, but I live with them. No one, not even the state's governor, can overturn an election with the mere stroke of a pen.

really?

you want to start a second civil war?

How many people were killed in a firefight in Little Rock when federal troops were sent to integrate the schools? There will only be a firefight if Snyder wants one. If anyone is worried about a firefight, then the solution is to federalize the Michigan National Guard, just as the Arkansas National Guard, initially used by Governor Faubus to resist integration, was federalized by President Eisenhower and then used by the President to enforce integration.

it's about a fully and completely disfunctional government.That city is a disaster and I don't give two shits who takes it over if it means a better way of life for the residence.

Go live in the heart of detroit for a year then tell me all is well

/Godwin

It's about democracy itself. It's about whether the people are sovereign. It is about whether the people will be governed by leaders of their choice or by a dictator of Governor Snyder's choice.

I sympathize with your problems, but this is not the solution. You did what you could do, namely, cease to do business with the city. I have no doubt that Detroit is in trouble. If it is true that the city cannot long function before filing bankruptcy, then let it file bankruptcy and the courts work with the city's elected officials to get it back on its its feet.

The state of Michigan gives the governor the right to determine that the city is insolvent and to appoint an emergency manager of his choice to make decisions without consulting elected officials. In fact, he gets to fire them. That is what is wrong here.

As soon as one says "Caesar should appoint a proconsul for Detroit because democracy has failed there," one is wrong. Detroit has problems, but this so-called solution gives the appearance of using those problems to create an opportunity for a crony capitalist and further corruption, not an honest attempt to help the city and its residents.

Michigan's draconian emergency manager law is an affront to democracy. There are other solutions to the problem of a city in financial straights that have worked everywhere else and could work in Michigan. Michigan's emergency manager system is authoritarian and has no place in Michigan or anywhere else.

What would you do in Detroit?

That way the city will have legal protection from its creditors.

I would not, even if I had the power to do so, appoint an unelected manager with the authority to remove the city council and sell the city's assets without having to be accountable to city officials. Under that system, the city has no legal protection at all.

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe there are legal precedents in bankruptcy that give bond holders senior rights. Union contracts would still be at risk. I'm not sure about publically owned assets.

The EMF isn't bound by legal precedents. He can dismiss the city's elected officials and do whatever he likes. The judge cannot.

Michigan's EMF law is an open invitation to corruption. I know nothing about Mr. Orr, so I can't make any judgment against him, but this is a system without safeguards. Bankruptcy has them.

I'm not saying it won't be painful, but I never heard of anything worse than what Michigan has in place unless you go back to a time of absolute monarchs.

Detroit is going down the crapper either way and the residents can thank their democraticly elected city government for that.

And it sounds a lot better than letting a judge decide what happens.

Lisa Howze, a former state representative who’s a certified public accountant, said today that Detroit’s immediate debts and liabilities amount to “about $2 billion,” a figure she said is manageable without an emergency financial manager who could usurp elected local control of the city. She said the state review team...pulled forward 25 years of long-term employee retirement obligations and included other debts to “make Detroit’s financial situation today look worse than it actually is” with $14 billion on long-term liabilities.

“The agenda that’s at play is to justify the need for an emergency manager,” Howze said. “The more bleak that they could make the city’s financials appear, the more public support you can earn for why Detroit deserves an EM or an EFM.”

Howze’s allegations jibe with similar arguments made by another candidate for Detroit mayor, the city’s former top lawyer, Krystal Crittendon. Crittendon also accused the state of wrapping in bond debt that’s the separate responsibility of the city’s water department – debts that she says the water department will have no problem paying off. She also said the state is sabotaging Michigan cities.

“The state eliminated revenue sharing for all Michigan cities, causing all cities, not just Detroit, to experience financial distress,” Crittendon said. “Moreover, the state used federal stimulus money to bail itself out, and now enjoys a billion and a half dollar surplus, while cities across the state are suffering.”

http://www.freep.com/article/20130227/NEWS01/130227060/Lisa-Howze-Detroit-mayor-candidate-says-city-s-debt-is-manageable-without-EFM


Dave Bing was the corporate candidate; he's hand-in-glove with the Ford family and people of that ilk. He's their comprador, and colluding in the take-down.

Which is why it's funny to hear the posters saying how 'corrupt' the present government is. Well, yes, it is -- but not in the way they claim.


AKA David Bing
Born: 24-Nov-1943
Birthplace: Washington, DC
Gender: Male
Race or Ethnicity: Black
Occupation: Basketball, Business
Party Affiliation: Democratic
Executive summary: NBA Hall of Famer, Detroit mayor

Mayor of Detroit (2009-)
The Bing Group Founder (1980-)
Member of the Board of Cardinal Health (2000-05)
Member of the Board of DTE Energy (1985-2005)
Member of the Board of Lear (1999-)
Member of the Board of Steelcase
Bill Bradley for President
Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee
Detroit Economic Club Board of Directors
Detroit Renaissance Board of Directors
Obama for America
Restoring the American Dream

http://www.nndb.com/people/850/000166352/


Detroit renaissance board:

http://www.nndb.com/org/244/000125866/


Detroit is and has been corrupt because that's how the captains of industry like it. If they'd wanted it different, it has always been within their power. Corruption is good when you want to take something over.

I confess to not being familiar with the details of Detroit's problems, but I would assume that the city has problems. If Detroit's problems are as bad as the state says, then I would file bankruptcy were I the mayor of Detroit or a member of its city council.

As for the emergency manager law, that should be stuffed up the Michigan GOP's collective ass with a rod.

The point I am making is simply that such a draconian system as the EMF is not needed and should be abolished. Michigan is the only state that I know of with such a law and one may ask why.

good chance that the problems are not as bad as they've been billed. detroit had a surplus in 2012 and is on target for surplus in 2013.

in every case like this (e.g. social security, chicago teachers, auto bailout, etc.) we've seen the media throw out lots of false information to get the public on board with whatever they want to do.

these days i take it for granted they're lying about something.

It works the opposite way. If city-owned resources are privatized, they are added to the tax base.

Public sector union employees earn more than privae sector employees. Less wages mean workers go from buying a house to renting an apartment. Less wages mean less cash flowing through the economy.

Detroit income tax rates are about 2% (they are different for residents and non-residents) so it would take roughly 50 private sector employee's income tax to pay for one public employee's compensation -- probably even more, since as you point out, public sector employees earn more and they have much more lavish benefits.

Government deficits is ... have 100% unemployment?

Let's go deeper into the matter, then. First the public sector employees themselves. They get, typically, higher wages than a public sector equivilant. That's not really in debate...I don't have a specific percentage average above public, but I can see what I can dig up if you think it's not so. More wages can produce several things

1] Higher income taxes - as you mention. Not a lot, but every bit adds up.
2] Higher instances of home ownership. People with higher wages will buy houses instead of renting. Home ownership leads to property taxes. Higher wages mean better homes, better homes mean higher taxes.
3] Sales taxes - More expendable cash through higher wages means more sales tax paid per annum.

So, those are the big ones, with regards to direct revenue from public sector union employees. But that's not all. The goal of the emergency manager is to get the city's finances in order, no matter what. That can mean smashing those unions I spoke of above, that can mean slashing services, that can also mean selling off city property and assets.

What sort of services might get cut? |(this is speaking in general terms, I'm not familiar with the current state of Detroits specific services) Well, public schools, either closings or simply cutting a big chunk out of already-strapped funding. Reduced garbage pick-up. It might be a reduction in firefighter man-hours. Severe reduction or removal entirely of infrastructure repair and installation. And so on. Cuts like these seem to, on the surface, be a positive in the "fixing the budget" ledger, but they drive away existing and potential taxpayers. Nobody, if they have the choice, wants to live in a city that won't fund schools, street and bridge repair, or firefighters. Why would you? As those homeowners leave, even more of your taxbase dwindles. So you look at the books again, and wonder why you just can't gt it to balance. maybe another wave of budgetary cuts. This time you take a chunk of money out of the police force; you reduce garbage pickup to every second week, instead of weekly; you lay off the parks maintenance staff. now you have a city with, on top of the previous problems, a diminished police force (in a city already known for crime), garbage that piles up on the streets, and poor (if at all) maintained green spaces. Even less people want to live here. It goes on, until all you have is people making minimum wage, who can't afford to leave the city, and a city that can't afford to do anything at all.

The private economy has to be big enough to afford the public economy. The public economy cannot afford itself.

The schools are not in the Detroit City Budget.

http://www.detroitmi.gov/DepartmentsandAgencies/BudgetDepartment/20122013AdoptedBudget.aspx

In a time of economic downturn, the proper response, shown time and again, is an increase in public spending to bolster private sector reductions. Private sector selloffs should only occur in periods of a strong economy. See: John Maynard Keynes, also the New Deal.

Keynsian economic says that government spending should regulate the economy by running surpluses in good times and running deficits in bad times in order to smooth out the business cycle.

It does not say to run big deficits in good times and even bigger deficits in bad times.

And it doesn't really work at the city level.

april 2012

Detroit COO Chris Brown said this year's budget has a $100 million surplus. About $75 million will be used to pay down the deficit.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20120412/FREE/120419953/detroits-budget-for-coming-year-cuts-160-million-uses-75-million-to

feb 2013

Detroit to end fiscal year with surplus

http://altdetroit.com/detroit-to-end-fiscal-year-with-surplus/


and these aren't the first years that detroit has had surplus, either.

you're just making stuff up.

Keynesianism is not simply the constant running of deficits: it's having countercyclical government spending to smooth out the business cycle.

I think Detroit has proven that!

with regards to tax bases is that you have to collect the taxes owed to you if you want to provide services.

they want, but if they cannot provide a city that people consider worth being in then they'll never be able to collect on them. People would rather lose property in Detroit than pay taxes for it.

and the government spending, which is nearly always on the national level). The Eurozone crisis has a lot to do with the fact that money supply and fiscal policy are in the hands of different entities with the European Central bank choosing a tight monetary policies and the national governments having a choice between spending the same amount and austerity (stimulus isn't an option for them due to tight money). In the US the situation is almost reversed with the Federal reserve choosing loose monetary policy but the political obstruction of the republican party forcing flat spending or even austerity measures.

Theoretically Detroit could coordinate with Bernanke and the federal reserve about how to engage in a coordinated "Keynesianism in one county" policy, but this is the kind of thing that if successful would lead to a Nobel prize in economics and would require leadership of an intellectual caliber seldom seen on the mayoral level in this country (maybe Bloomberg, because even though he's an authoritarian dickweed the man understands money).

fat lot of good it's done. about as much good as putting the city under emergency dictatorship will do.

For example, privatizing utilities, or state monopolies on liquor. etc. do not help the bottom line, instead they eliminate a revenue source.

Detroit Mayor Dave Bing implements union benefits, pay cuts immediately

The plan calls for the implementation of $102 million in annual savings. Included in the savings is a 10 percent wage cut, as well as significant changes to health care and work rules.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/Detroit-Mayor-Dave-Bing-implements-union-benefits-pay-cuts-immediately/-/1719418/15587972/-/wkogtez/-/index.html


A chart the city council handed out to the media highlighted the cuts carried out since April, including a 25 percent reduction in the city workforce and wage and benefit cuts of $50 million. The cuts carried out by the council have been so drastic that it projects a surplus at the end of 2013.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/03/14/detr-m14.html

?rendition=image480

And it has a huge burden of pensions and benefits for city retirees.

It simply did not cut employees fast enough when the population declined.

There are no painless solutions now.

even then, it wasn't the 'worst' of their hand-picked comparison cities.

and the article makes it clear that even in 2011 there had been major cuts:

So they're at 70% of former capacity.

But over the same period of time the population has decreased to 60% of the 1980 census. It isn't the unions' fault. There's just an incredibly shrunken population to pay for things.

more cuts since then.

In 1980 there were 1.2 million people in detroit. today there are about 714,000. That's about 59% of 1980 population.

In 2011 city employees were about 60% of the 1980s level.

I'm not the other guy.

Today's population is about 60% of what it was in the 80's, and 2011 staffing of 12,900 was about 60% of 80s staffing as well.

and there have been more cuts since.

By then the population had dropped significantly from the peak of 1.8 million in 1950. But when the black adminstrations came in in the '70s, they had to hire their supporters while the incumbent employees couldn't be fired because of seniority. So the workforce was larger than needed.

Unfortunately, Detroit was in no position to increase the size of the spoils system and the old incumbents couldn't be eased out.

Guess you've never been involved in politics?

a grand total of 10,437.

http://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/docs/budgetdept/2012-13%20Redbook/Charts/XVII%20BudgetedPositions.pdf


grant-funded means not paid out of local revenues.

of that total, 3962 of it is in 'enterprise agencies,' which i believe means that they fund their own departments by charging for their services. i know this is the case for water/sewerage.

so that leaves 6575 employees of 'general city agencies,' of whom 469 are grant-funded. 6106 are funded through general city revenues.

of those, 46% are police and 19% are fire (65% total, 3985 people).

That means there are 2121 people to run everything else in this city of 3/4 of a million people.

this something that is really dividing the city, they're simply fed up with slow unresponsive or non existent city services. Their attitude is basically how much worse can this guy be than jokers that we're running the city before.

later, when the evil fruit materializes, they disappear or pretend.

Corporate pockets for shilling run even deeper.

depriving people of their democratic process is good?

and the pro EFM folks can't realize that what ever corruption that exists institutionally, municipally, in a state, federally -- they're not voting FOR corruption and then to have their rights taken away.

very strange.

does not work." what could possibly go wrong?

and didn't even know about it until a reporter pointed it out.

In fact, those who vetted him didn't even find it.
[link:http://www.dailyfinance.com/2013/03/19/detroit-emergency-manager-kevyn-orr-liens/|
It was 'embarrassing', he said, it 'fell through the cracks'.]

I'm sure someone like that will be great in a position where he is in charge of improving tax collections in the city.

Oh yeah.

Great at collecting taxes as long as they're not HIS taxes that are being collected.

But I keep hearing complaints that Detroit's own government is not functioning. Is this so? If so, shouldn't the city figure out what is wrong with the form of government they have and adopt a new constitution for city government? Also, I'm not convinced by the line of reasoning of the pro EFM people that the current actions of the state of Michigan are ok because the city would just go bankrupt anyway and have a judge calling the shots. If that's the case then why not let it happen and wait for the judge to do his job like the law says.

No Horses, but Detroit Water Department Employs 'Horseshoer'

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/17404

city employees have declined more than 40%.