Classy.

I'm talking about how people respond to female activism, and what gets attention.

the Pakistani girl who was shot in the head for wanting to go to school? I don't remember her posing topless.

thank you! This is what I'm talking about. Amina's act is absolutely courageous.

I would like to see more women get as much attention for their acts of bravery.

Malala is one! Thank Reason.

Who are you talking about??? There are many feminists here.

I don't know of a famous feminist here, obviously ....... you do. I guess it's a secret, but that's fine, too.

and just got a $3m book deal. She's probably the most popular women's activist in the world right now, and she never showed her boobs.

I would like to see more women get as much attention for their acts of bravery.

Malala is one! Thank Reason.

who were getting attention who haven't posed topless.

MUCH MORE attention if they use nudity.

I was making a comparison (on a spectrum), not a dichotomous (black-or-white) statement.

/shakes head

Bloody one of the most well publicised and known cases and you can't even remember her name but claim you know how much attentions she received...

Have you actually checked any of the threads here on DU about her? Because I am sure I don't remember seeing you in any of them in the last month at least. Correct me if I am wrong.

I have read many threads about here, and recced. I just don't always say something. I tend to speak up when I see some glaring social contradiction.

Malala got attention to a critical issue because she got shot in the head for having the bravery to be a girl stepping out of the sick restrictions. That is a pretty earth shaking event.

I didn't see any comments in those threads that seemed to focus on trivialities, so my internal alarms didn't get set off.

I have been trying to talk about the nature of the responses, not about the women themselves.

expressing concern for her safety (in large part because of her method of protest). Until people who disagree with using nudity in feminist protests decided to derail the threads and started accusing everyone of pornification, sexism, and gawd only knows what else.

think about it. This a very brave young women. Why anyone would try to minimize her courage is mind boggling.

From those, it seems that the risk of death is not imminent.

On that issue, I am looking for more information so I can understand that aspect better.

Salman Rushdie was brave for calling out fundamentalist Islam, and his life was threatened for it--it was highly publicized at the time (The Satanic Verses. Which was a bizarre and hard to read book, actually. But it criticized Islam and pissed off a lot of Imams). He's still alive, though....he was not in the dangerous Middle East states. He was not in direct danger like a woman in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan or other retrograde tribal theocracies who tries to get an education or leave the house.


I am not minimizing her courage. I am talking about the reaction of the world.

Western males are not her target audience. By posting on FB, she is using a backdoor means of getting the message through to her own countrymen.

And anyways, if she wanted to protest not being ALLOWED to be nude -regardless of the danger to her- that, too, should be supported.

Her protest is totally acceptable to me. She is making a huge statement, getting noticed, making people think, at some risk. (Although, as per information shared about Tunisia, I wondered just how imminent the threat to her life was.)

In the outrage at me, people are piling on and misunderstanding my point.

I'm pretty sure she's protesting for women being allowed to have a LIFE, not whether or not she's allowed to be publicly naked.

I'm not talking about her, specifically or questioning HER. I'm trying to talk about public reaction, and the tendency for people to give women more attention when they sexualize.

The protests on her behalf here just seem to be false sanctimony in light of how everyone is talking about her nudity ("oh but we're not talking about *that*. We're talking about how brave she is.&quot ---- if bravery were the focus, Rachel Corrie would have been a much bigger topic here than she was.

so many are pretending that WAS the topic is incredible. speaks volumes how far hard they sling BS instead of addressing it.


"The protests on her behalf here just seem to be false sanctimony in light of how everyone is talking about her nudity ("oh but we're not talking about *that*. We're talking about how brave she is.&quot ---- if bravery were the focus, Rachel Corrie would have been a much bigger topic here than she was."

except the WTC twice, embassies in Africa, subways in Britain, an embassy in Libya, and a bunch of other things. BTW since the revolution things in Tunisia have gotten way worse for women but if you think it is such a feminist paradice then you can always move there.

Why use words like tits or boobs in a serious discussion even though Amina's group uses the term in an effort to get their point across. I think those terms have their place like any other vernacular or slang and they can be used without it being an insult. They can be used in a funny way. But why not say breasts in a serious discussion?

Language in context means a great deal. Would you say the words tits or boobs when talking to Professors or the Queen of England?

Under certain circumstances it's perfectly OK to use those words. But I wonder if people are a little frightened to use the correct terminology. I think most of us learn to let go of all the slang terms for penis and force ourselves to use the word penis because it is the correct name of that organ and in serious conversation we want to use correct terminology. It seems like a sign of maturity to stop saying wee-wee, or pee-pee, or dick or tits or boobs when the correct name is called for.

There's a thread on DU about a teacher being ostracized for saying the word vagina. When did that word become offensive? When did the words pussy, cunt, tush become more acceptable?

What a load of hypocrisy, that the teacher was ostracized.

I always use the parallel of how we discuss race to try and show how we speak differently about feminism and women. Interestingly, I used The N Word in order to make my point, that slurs against women are acceptable, while slurs against blacks have become repulsive (and rightly so.) Unfortunately (and ironically), someone alerted and the post got hidden, so the deeper point was lost.

I ask, why do slurs against women never rise to that level, where most people have visceralized the knowledge that such hatred is reprehensible.

OK to offend African American DUers. And no, they don't think it's OK for you to use that word. Will you apologize to them? Hell no. HoF is never wrong.

and was called a 6 y/o just learning a new swear word and part of the naughty-word police. (I was far from the only one). The explaination was that usually it was the menz who got to use demeaning words, so it was fitting to bring here. Make sense to you? It didn't to me. Being outraged over the title of an article written by a woman in an article about a seriously brave woman activist (in the real world) who is possibly facing horrible consequences just seems a little selective, to me.

But only them.

I appreciate that you understand the issues I'm trying to clarify!

Yes.

This should suffice as the last word.

you're about the last person I'd take as the last word on anything. Sorry, but that's how reliable I see your information.

Very informative.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022588765

Thank you. I appreciate that info.

no reason to close the book on the issue after so many SJWs have totally inaccurately portrayed the situation in Tunisia.

The country IS changing and not for the best, definitely not for women, that is.

Amina is not safe because it only takes ONE religious nutcase anywhere determined enough to follow that craze cleric's call. Theo van Gogh was murdered in Amsterdam, off all places.

violence and extremists turned back the clock for them. I fear women all over NA and the ME are losing rights and don't see it getting better for them any time soon.

either not true or its not that dangerous because its much worse somewhere else. Like that makes it safe somehow.

were granted decades ago via the fight of our own female ancestors, are suddenly now shameful invitations for pornification when brave women in dangerous areas of the world choose to use these same rights to further causes we've never even had to worry about.

Solidarity?? Not at all. imho.

Oh wait, she didn't.

Seemed like she got plenty of attention.

And she didn't show her breasts OR die.

Kind ruins your thesis.

I would like to see more women get as much attention for their acts of bravery.

Rosa is one! Thank Reason. (Let me add that Rosa Parks was an activist for racial equality, not feminism. So your example is somewhat off point, but still a good one.)

You said that women protesters get attention only by showing breasts, then followed by dying in that order.

I showed you the most famous female protester who did neither and thus disproved your thesis.

No thanks needed.

Given the atmosphere in the South at that time.

My point was a comparison. If you can list as many women who are lionized for their contributions and activism, particularly in terms of women's rights, who are given this much attention, I will appreciate you for it. Or, conversely, if you can list men who have used their sexuality to protest and been glorified for it.

Rosa Parks' action was then amplified and given gravitas by the rise of the Civil Rights Movement, which came to national and worldwide attention through Martin Luther King.

If not for him and other Civil Rights activists spearheading a movement whose time had come, I wonder if Rosa's courageous action would have gotten attention.

We still don't have Rosa Parks day, nor do we have Harriet Tubman day. We don't have Susan B. Anthony day, and most people don't even know about Elizabeth Cady Stanton.

(As an interesting aside, allow me to compare examples of how we socialize the two issues--Civil Rights and Women's Rights: Black History month is a very big deal, but Women's History month is still largely ignored. At the college where I work, Black History month is celebrated with multiple events, high level speakers, awareness campaigns about Black people who have made great contributions to society in various fields.........Women's History month, in contrast, was celebrated this year with a table in the Student Union giving away small bunches of tulips to women.)

threatened with death.

http://dailyhowler.blogspot.com/2013/02/rosa-parks-at-100-reasons-to-read.html

"We’re not sure we previously understood the suffering Mrs. Parks endured because of her refusal to surrender her seat on a bus—because of her agreement to let her case be the focus of the Montgomery boycott. She and her husband lost their jobs and became essentially unemployable. As this was happening, a year of death threats led to serious, ongoing health problems for Mrs. Parks and for her husband—and for Mrs. Parks’ mother.

In part due to of the loss of employment, health treatment couldn’t be paid for or sought.

It seems to us that the story of this subsequent suffering is one of the parts of Mrs. Parks’ life that ought to be understood better as we learn to honor the sacrifices made by the people who created the civil rights movement."

sadly this is a male "SJW" "first world" problem too, and being so dismissive hurts all of us.

WTF do you have to do these days to get media attention to your cause? Is ANY media attention better than none- because she's getting stories out that are primarily about the nudity- her message has become secondary. Is that effective?

i know I went to too many huge protests that were completely written off.

How soon they forget.

You got a problem with that?

not any woman who has gained some fame.

and sadly, her protests had little effect.

Anyway- we are talking about a group that does think nudity is the way to go. What do you think of the press they are getting?
Seems to me, it's 90% about the nudity, and the reasons they are protesting are a total afterthought.

I don't know if you're removing the context of "nudity AS A PROTEST METHOD" on purpose and being totally dishonest,
or you're unable to actually read full sentences.

Either way, the BS you shovel is a waste of bandwidth.

normal? That there is NOTHING about human body to be ashamed of? That insisting that nudity and protest do not go together is carrying water for those who want to control what women do with their bodies? Or do you?

How others protest? Their bodies, their choice. It's very simple.

Single Jewish woman?

Silly juvenile witlessness?

Satan Jesus Wutang?

Seriously, what is SJW?

of sitting on their asses and typing about their "first world problems".


Strangely enough the term often fits those who hurl it at others:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022585969

"blah, blah, blah, RW!!!!!MRA!!!!!!blahblahblahblah...."

"blhblahblahblahLIBRUL!!'MERICAHATER!!blahblahblahblah...."


So easy* to "dismiss" an opposing viewpoint when you misrepresent and caricaturize it.







(* read - intellectually dishonest)

I wonder about the death threats and how serious they are.

It is likely though that she can't rejoin that society and may get asylum somewhere else. It will be interesting to see if there is any effect and if the women in Tunisia start demanding their rights.

I pointed that Theo van Gogh is dead and asked if that is good enough (to confirm the danger).

Theo van Gogh (film director)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)

As a government Fatwah - sounds like this was one individual who murdered another - some crazed individual could murder this girl, true.

Fatwa but still a call for murder by religious leader. All it takes now is one follower to go through with it.

BTW, Theo van Gogh did not take death threats seriously and refused police protection.

Amina is not under police protection AFAIK and we haven't heard from her at all yet. The only statement I saw about her being safe is from a lawyer who said she is her lawyer, nothing from Amina herself.

Even after the death sentence was officially rescinded, he was still in danger from a few fanatics determined to kill him.

Even if rescinded and people forgetting in time, there can be some nut out there.

Someone who I posted about:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022517087

I didn't see you or a few others kicking that thread or talking about her.

There are a lot of threads today piling on and shaming a certain well known feminist here. When I see eloquent shamings and giant pile-ons by men calling out the few men here who are equally reliable as sexualizers and trivializers of feminist discussion, THEN I will be impressed.

See this is where folks get a disconnect. Making it about men (and ignoring there are women who might feel the same way - why do you ignore those women??). Why does it matter the sex of the poster? Do you care more if a poster has a penis than what they say? Do you judge their content by their sexuality?

Lots of us care about feminism and wanting women to be equal in our society and across the world. Yet we keep getting painted as the enemy over little things and told we hate women and want to keep them down.

Everyone of your posts on this topic have been spot on. Good on ya.

Am I missing something? Is she also involved in feminist issues?

Otherwise, tragic as her death is, how does it relate to this discussion?

I thought issues of losing homes and such were issues that impacted women?

If every damned thing on DU can be about women, from holding doors to what words one uses, then why wouldn't you think people losing their homes are feminist issues?

Or is only relevant when there is someone needing to be outraged?

I thought the discussion at hand was about what makes specifically feminist messages get noticed and commented upon.

But nevermind any actual civil discourse. Carry on with your anger. And without me.

these men didn't become ardent feminists overnight. Most of them are just making shit up about Tunisia in order to get on a high horse and flog other DUers.
Funny, I don't think her bare chest alone won them over, it was purely personal animus towards feminists here that moved these SJWs into "action".

"when I see avalanches of threads and worldwide media attention praising women who have sacrificed or risked their lives in other ways while remaining fully clothed, I will feel the respect for women is sincere.

===================================================================================

There are a lot of threads today piling on and shaming a certain well known feminist here. When I see eloquent shamings and giant pile-ons by men calling out the few men here who are equally reliable as sexualizers and trivializers of feminist discussion, THEN I will be impressed. "

they'd never have run her over.

If Valerie Plame had shown her boobs, her outing by the BA would NEVER have happened.
If only Anne Frank, Mother JOnes and Rosa Parks had shown their boobs...

SO sad, all these lost opportunities.

I am in UK.

To clarify, i don't have any problems with nudity public or otherwise, used for protest, personal gratification or pure display. Their body, their choice. To me there is nothing about human body that makes it shameful or sex object only, when naked. YMMV and that's fine as long as its not forced on others.

Or women's rights in general, if they abhor the demonized term.

Obviously if a woman is fighting for a cause men naturally support, the cause itself will attract attention.

When it comes to feminist issues, well...

She tried to make a point by posting an all but safe for work thread with plenty of naked men pictures.

I suspect that one did not go the way she was expecting either

So the piling, if indeed there is any, is over that threat that could get people fired...on the spot mind you.

Selfish...and unthinking. And I admit, since I work at home that one did not occur o me until somebody brought up human resources.

By a few thousand miles.

Think Castro District.

I love how we play innocent

I'm making a comparison, which I thought was clear.

My point is that there is no pile on for the NSFW images in the thread with no pile on.

So... why is that, do you think?

Walls get it

Have a wonderful day

I didn't see the post that sea was responding to.

Be that as it may, I'm seeing tons of pile on that is not about wanting a warning if a thread or post is NSFW.

In fact, the posts about that issue seem to be pretty level headed. It doesn't seem that there's a whole bunch of posts on the NSFW issue, however.

The most numerous and outraged discussants seem to be those who claim that any analysis of social/media attention being given to female nudity is an act of disrespect to a heroic woman.

I will say it again: I am not critiquing the woman. I'm critiquing the social reaction, and comparing it to the social reaction to other women who actively speak out--particularly on women's rights issues--but do not push the sexual controversy button.

On several threads.

It is what it is...I guess.

She never appeared nude. How about the woman who got crushed by the Israeli tank? She didn't pose nude either.

OP fail.

Or without the word "tits" in the thread title.

The photos of her, and her apparent removal to a psychiatric hospital, happened a few days ago, which was when the media reported it. Even with the nudity, it's not a particularly big story in the media. No-one bothered putting the story here on DU (I had caught a brief mention on BBC radio, but I didn't see it as worth remembering to find online and link here).

No-one, as far as I can tell, had been posting about Tunisia much in the past month, after mentions of rallies about the killing of the opposition leader (which was early February, and did get several DU threads, though not with many replies). On March 13, we had 2 Tunisian LBN threads: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014423648 http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014423469 neither or which got any replies. A few GD threads have mentioned Tunisia, but nothing specifically about women's rights, or of Islam becoming repressive there.

It was the title of the New Statesman article (an article which has not attracted much attention on the NS website - 19 comments, when I looked yesterday), that got DU's attention. Within 3 minutes of it being posted, there was an SoP alert complaining specifically about the word 'tits' and nothing else. I can't tell if a Community Standards alert was ever sent to a jury or not. Within half an hour, a reply complaining about the use of 'tits'. Within an hour, after that more or less literal 'BatSignal', seabeyond was inaccurately saying it was the 4th thread about it (it was the first), and proceeded to denigrate the women involved, and to blame men as a group. And that was what got the thread, and the subsequent threads, going at full throttle - the attack on the Femen activists. Most people didn't like seabeyond's dismissal of the women as tools of men, or her claim that it was posted 'to put women in their place'.

Someone of your own political party who stands up for women's rights?

so an attack on her cannot simply be dismissed as 'misogyny'. She is not standing up for Femen's rights.

who also stand up for women's rights, have experienced misogyny in it's most violent forms and worked with victims of rape and assault, DV 'Du rape culture apologists', 'siding with the sexists', in need of educating, clueless, etc. etc. You get what you give, I guess.

Maybe we're not allowed to post jury results anymore since the closing of META?

Benazir Bhutto?
Rachel Corrie?
Karen Silkwood?

Malala Yousafzai? Rosa Parks? Margaret Sanger? Tammy Duckworth? Gabrielle Giffords? Perhaps you aren't looking?

Remember, this whole eruption started with a well known feminist here slamming Amina and her fellow topless protesters for being too sexy in front of teh menz. That's the one who sexualized the discussion.

and who are remember for it didn't expose their breasts. A little research will find them. In fact, I suspect that very few women who were martyrs for important causes exposed their breasts.

I'd try again on this one. I think you've missed a lot of facts here.

YOUR COMMENTS:

calling out of D.U.ers who disagree with the poster, and using G.D. as a meta forum. "No whining about D.U." How much longer will this disruption be tolerated?

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sat Mar 30, 2013, 12:23 PM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: I think this does stray into a Meta type thread. So, vote to hide.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: I voted to hide, because I agree this is Meta and it appears the hosts are taking their damn time on this sort of thing lately. How about just replying to the thread you want to talk about, instead of starting a new one? DU isn't your twitter account.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: I agree with the alerter. META is dead let it go. The posters firend's post was made for pure shock value but it didn't get the resilts she was hoping for. Plain and simple, she got her ass handed to her in her own thread. Hide this crap.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Inane alert. You can't "call out" a whole demographic. This is nothing more than the expression of a viewpoint.

and independence.

Frequently shrouded, silenced, disappeared. And if they don't comply they are killed as "slutty" for even non-crimes like talking to a strange man.

Her protest is genius in that she takes aim at EVERYTHING women are constrained by in their cultures.

Clothing? Check - she takes it ALL off.

Exposing of the dread, lust inducing breasts instead of being shrouded by a tent? Plus the double bonus of her face and hair. Check! Exposed.

"Speaking out" instead of remaining silent? Ooooh boy, yes.

"Speaking out" about honor killings? Double yes.

This isn't about political gains like the right to vote, or drive, or be the Prime Minister, or go to school....

Amina's action is targeted at the fundamental flaw in how Islamic societies treat women. Its beyond what rights women should or should not have and goes to the core of how that culture denigrates women (which leads to the loss of all the other rights).

Malala Yousufzai received tons of attention and rightfully so for her fight for freedom. Every woman who stands up for their rights should be honored for it including the ones who choose to show their body in order to make a point.

and an adorable little boy!!! The pig is pretty sweet too, isn't he?!

[IMG][/IMG]

but I commend you for the valiant effort of patiently trying to explain the point of your OP throughout this thread. I don't always agree with Seabeyond but, also, do not understand the level of vitriol directed toward her by what seems to be the same people, no matter what she has to say. As with your OP, it is evident that the misinterpretation by some is deliberate. I have no problem with people who are genuinely disagreeing with her, or any other HoF member, in a civil manner. Watching the direction some of these threads have taken over the last several days and even before that, I have come to believe there are certain posters who will enter threads concerning particular issues and lie in wait simply for the opportunity to confront Seabeyond for no other purpose than to continue to demean her character rather than discuss the issue. I can almost feel the gleeful satisfaction they derive when other DU members join in their denigration of a person who is also a member of DU. I've even witnessed their disappointment when denied the presence of people who have become their intended targets. This may sound dramatic but I have witnessed the process over and over again. Frankly, these nasty tactics are not what I expected when joining what is hailed as a liberal, progressive and Democratic message board and one of the reasons I seldom post comments in an OP dealing with what seems to be, for some posters, extremely hot button issues.

Whew, guess that's been building for longer than I realized. Thanks for your patience and continued efforts against what must sometimes feel to be mountains rather than mole hills.