I have to say that pissing off the Santorum wing of anything is a good thing.

Wow... that's a stretch.

The Wonkette wants the cake and to eat it too.

..sure he's an old bigot but.. he's GRANDPA!!

What a turd this author is. 'Sure he calls you Satanic, but we love him!!!!'
Wonkette, defender of hate mongering bigots, rationalizing bigoted libels.

Any other minority group being called Satanic would be met with anger, not with 'that's got to hurt, but....' and then some excuses for the hate monger.

I didn't know that he supported civil unions.

<snip>

Then there are the statements that Bergoglio made to Marcelo Márquez, a prominent gay rights activist in Argentina. According to The New York Times:

"He listened to my views with a great deal of respect," said Marcelo Márquez, a gay rights leader and theologian who wrote a tough letter to Cardinal Bergoglio and, to his surprise, received a call from him less than an hour after it was delivered. "He told me that homosexuals need to have recognized rights and that he supported civil unions, but not same-sex marriage." Mr. Márquez said he went on to meet twice with Cardinal Bergoglio, telling him of his plan to marry his partner and discussing theology. The man who would become pope gave him a copy of his biography, "The Jesuit."

<snip>

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/is-pope-francis-secretly_b_2924954.html

No, his comments shouldn't be glossed over, but he appears to be more tolerant than Benedict or most in the church hierarchy.

Wonkette says 'he calls gays Satanic, but so what'. The basic fact that she is so willing to dismiss those horrible things her leadership says about us, while at the same time taking great offense at criticisms of her church and leadership is hypocrisy deluxe. 'Sure he calls you Satanic, but you guys are the bigots'. Uh huh.
Equal is equal. Calling a minority group Satanic is not acceptable and to call that tolerant is disgusting.

. . . that is, even if he hypothetically wants to, he has to figure out how he does it without saying his infallible predecessors were fallible while he's the real infallible one. It's a hard problem to wrap your head around, and only popes could get themselves into this bind.

So far as I know, he hasn't yet made any pronouncements against homosexuals while he's been infallible. That's not great, but it puts him ahead of John Paul and Benedict, who managed to say that within the first week of taking St. Peter's Throne.

for the sake of himself and of his own, without regard to the harm done to others. That's easy to understand if a person has a soul and some ethics. Every bigot that ever breathed has 'reasons' in their mind for what they do, the details are irrelevant.
In addition, 'infallibility' is only applied to formal pronouncements not every stupid thing some Pope says. Francis is not himself 'infallible' the RCC says certain specific forms of Papal speech are infallible. Francis has recent headline making diatribes against gay people so he does not have to rush. He already said we are a path to Satan. And his followers already said that's not a big deal to them, but if anyone criticizes them it is very offensive. They say their leader can call my family the devil, but if I say that is bigotry, I'm wrong.
Read what Wonkette says in that OP. 'Calls you satan, sorry gays, that must hurt...BUT'. Harm to others is no big deal. Because she does not disagree with Francis.
So much hubris. Such a huge double standard. Ego as deity. Speck in my eye and the log in your own. He calls us Satanic, and Wonkette says that's not a big deal at all. What if gay people were calling YOU Satanic? Hmmmmmm? Do ye therefore unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Amazing that some think criticizing an anti-gay bigot on a progressive website is wrong. Oh but he wears fancy clothes and he runs a church instead of a political party or a PAC, so it's TOTALLY different.

I've said it before: if it were the Catholic Party or Catholic PAC, there'd be no question about criticizing its leader.

Yes it's the LGBT folks who are "bigoted" not the guy who thinks they are a Satanic ploy to trick "true" followers of God.

And I agree with you all this. Then you say this:



So, deconstructing how they trick themselves into evil it isn't relevant . . . to what? To your judgment of him? I never intended my post to be an argument against your judgment, which in fact, is the same as mine. Something that you can't seem to wrap your mind around.

Notwithstanding Wonkette's dumb statement-- which I never addressed-- I never said this Pope wasn't bigoted. I never said he wasn't practicing bigotry. That's exactly what he did and what he'll likely do.

However, there's also not a thing I can do about this guy no matter how I feel. Since my only option is to watch what he does, listen to what he says, and hope this guy is better than his predecessors and better than he first looked, that's what I have to do. Maybe that's too wistful for you to understand.

So, my idle question while I'm waiting to see what he does is what brain-damaging mental gymnastics is he performing so he can be bigoted? How is he doing it to himself? That's important, if for no other reason, to make sure I never do it to myself.



No, you have that wrong. According to the church, speech is true or false, but infallibility is a personal quality. If he speaks while he's infallible, what he says is true.

I'm tempted to sneer at the absurd notion that it's possible to narrow down (or perhaps distill) a humanly judged quality like infallibility down to just one category or situation, but you are generally correct that this is how the church defines papal infallibility.

However, since the entire concept is stupid and the effort misguided, in practice, it means that there's creeping infallibility, where everyone is confused about when he's infallible and when he's just one of us. So as not to offend God, Catholics tend to treat everything a Pope says as infallible unless proven otherwise. My own opinion? I think confusing people about infallibility is deliberate. It allows a Pope to have power without responsibility.

In fact, the infallibility doctrine is so untenable that I'm stunned you would try to argue whether the last three Popes were really infallible when they spoke out against homosexuality. Are you Catholic? If not, why are you trying to parse doctrines you have no obligation to believe, which are stupid to believe if you're not obligated to? Why sink yourself into the morass of legalistic minutia that's the infallibility doctrine? Nobody is infallible at any time, period. Why go any further into it?



I guess whether you're offended at being called Satan depends on 1) If you believe in such being, or even believe he's possible; 2) if there are consequences to being called that. Or you can simply be offended because you don't like the character.

I'm an atheist and I don't believe in the Christian myth. As long as there are no consequences, I'd feel much the same way about being called Satanic as when guys at my grade and high school said I was gay. That is, I'd feel they were stupid and their gay-dar sucks. (Well, not the second thing.) But there were consequences of being mistaken for being gay at a Catholic School. Consequences like harassment, like concussions. You have me wrong if you think I have any sympathy for bigots.

But that's just me, so you picked a poor example. Very lazy of you.

Same way they get a pass on sexism. Just turn a blind eye to it.

call me when they stop equating homosexuality with pedophilia, allowing women to be priests, stop hiding pedophilia priests, and pouring MILLIONS into hate legislation such as Prop. H8.

Which bible are you reading????

That is one of the "mission statements" of Jesus, and certainly a mean, hateful one.

If others say about you what your Francis says about my family, those people are very wrong to do so. But for those of you who dismiss his hate speech as you do to then whine about lesser things said of him is hypocrisy applied with a trowel. Pope says gay people are a path to Satan, but it is his critics who sound like Geller? How can a person excuse or dismiss such open and direct hate and turn to complain about what is said about their group while claiming the faith of the Golden Rule?
Do unto others. 'He calls you Satanic, but....don't you all say a word in return'. Hypocrisy applied with a trowel.

And reform the institution.

Last edited Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:09 PM - Edit history (2)

Will the Catholic Church all of a sudden advocate for abortion, gay marriage and the ordination of women? Probably not in our lifetime if ever.

But, New Pope appears to be a genuinely good man who has his priorities right: help the poor and go where the people are or they will end up only talking to themselves (the priests). Baby steps, the Church moves slowly.

Here's an article from, of all people, Peggy Noonan.

He knows the church has deep troubles but doesn't see the answer as turning inward in self-examination. Havana's Cardinal Jaime Ortega was quoted in a Cuban Catholic magazine this week saying that hours before his election, the future pope told his fellow cardinals that the Vatican must turn away from self-absorption and "theological narcissism." Instead, an embrace of others: The church must focus its energies on the "peripheries," which Cardinal Ortega understood to be not only a geographic reference but a reference to those who feel, or have been treated as, peripheral—the poor, the damaged, the unbelieving.

Francis often refers both to the center of things and the margins. He speaks of the centrality of Christ to the church's efforts. But he often spoke this week of "the edges" of things: The power of a good priest "overflows down to the edges." He even spoke of the edge of Christ's cloak. A papal tweet: "Being with Jesus demands that we go out from ourselves, and from living a tired and habitual faith."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2013/03/30/pope_francis_looks_outward_304826.html

Which does not bother their straight followers a bit.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vRyJ9rRDnsUJ

I didn't click the Obama hate thread and the rest were GOP.

The article is from the WSJ, but Real Clear Politics posted it. I put the RCP link, just click on "read full article".

The Catholic church calls my loved ones and family satanic, but when people point out that this sort of behavior and belief is evil, they are somehow guilty of "Catholicism-phobia"?
If your religion-club perpetuates the de-humanization of LGBT individuals, you ought to expect those humans and their loved-ones to take your church and it's leaders to task. This isnt the result of an ill-informed group of bigots blaming Catholicism for everything- Catholicism is doomed as long as it refuses to adapt to our evolving notions of fairness and humane beliefs.

+bazillion

Bravo!

because it'll look like us.

If you want a short cut, Wonky, drop the 'faith', and just learn to get along with folks.

One day you'll figure out that calling a Jewish Rabbi a messiah is a little like saying the sun is going around the earth. It's perspective, that's all. And that the 'god' up in the sky is really just the sky with a whole lot of naturally occurring light. Available to all, for free.

Shift your viewpoint, easier done if you drop the hate.

if you know what I mean. I wouldn't but anything past them.

....from the beliefs of past Popes on ALL of issues near and dear to the fundamentalists.

Why are people being taken in by this public performance??

He performs public ceremonies and rituals.

....he needs to do better than his current public PR campaign some around here seem to be swallowing hook, line, and sinker.

Let me know when he reverses church policies on LBGTs and women.

..though you never know..

medical *science* can do amazing things these days, am i wrong?

I'd bet money on it.

...has never represented the rank and file of the Catholic church. Which I suspect is why most American Catholics probably identify rather strongly with the "cafeteria Catholic" mentality. They just accept what they believe to be just and valuable about their faith and discard the Papal/Opus Dei nonsense and move on with their lives and their faith. Whether this is having "faith" as understood (how can you call yourself X when you reject some of what X represents) is a conversation for another time and place, so don't bother if you want to have that conversation.

That the pope is breaking from this hyper-conservative wing of the Catholic tradition gives me hope that this pope is not a dope.

Reminds me of that great exchange in Walk The Line:

A person who visits the poor and outcasts of society and shows humility and love is following the path of Christ's teachings. Eschewing this in favor of pomp and hubris is the very antithesis of those teachings.

It looks like the new Pope in going to do some good.

That's where it stopped being 'good'.

Allow me to ask you directly: do you give one single fuck about how this organization treats gay people?

If their answer is no then why does so many Christians have such disdain for gay people or anyone who may not be like themselves.

"He called gay marriage the path of Satan or something. (Sorry, gays, that probably does not feel nice!)" is followed by defense of Francis.
Then Wonkette says this:
"Honestly, when some of you talk about the Catholic Church, you sound like Pam Gellar talking about Muslins.
You sound like bigots."


Criticize Francis for attacking my family? I'm a bigot. Call me Satan, no big deal.

Mel Brooks said 'Tragedy is when I cut my finger, comedy is when you fall down an open sewer and die.' Wonkette needs to apply that to her so called thinking. She asks others to take being called Satanic very lightly 'that probably does not feel nice, but....'. Yet she is wildly sensitive and endlessly yakking about how people speak of an institution lead by a guy who calls other people Satanic. She gets a paper cut, tragedy. Others fall down the hate hole, comedy.

That's how it feels these days, things are moving fast and the old toxic crap is getting flushed, or knocked lose of its moorings.

I like it.

And I fucking love wonkette. K&R

Describing every single Catholic traditionalist as being motivated mostly by hatred, cause after all they disagree with you and you don't hate anybody, is not even close to being a humble opinion. In fact, it's downright arrogant in its presumption.

focus to this idea of "Traditionalist Catholics" which I am saying is a manufactured concept in regards to their numbers and importance. What I am saying is that it is not conservative regular Catholics that are running the Media show and getting the press...it is, I suspect, politically motivated by a small number of people with deep political pockets. This is my guess knowing many Catholics of all stripes and positions and not hearing any complaints (about his recent actions that are in discussion here) about the new Pope. Almost all the Press and discussion is somehow creating this "non-existant _at least in numbers" complaint group.

feels seething, ignorance based hatred for me and my LGBT sisters and brothers.

If he ever wants to be taken seriously as a spiritual leader, he really needs to sincerely and humbly apologize to all of us publicly.

Until then, he can wash the feet of poor folks every day, and I will believe it is only show biz, a choreographed video performance designed to help repair the damage to the Church that his predecessor caused, and gain some gullible acolytes.

In my opinion, his quotes that I have posted below show profound ignorance and a profound lack of love and understanding:

These are unspeakably wicked lies, lies that have the direct effect of furthering the forces of institutionalized hatred and bigotry, and the persecution of large numbers of completely innocent, harmless human beings.

Maybe it is a simple thing for some of those not victimized by this man's words and actions to dismiss these awful lies as trivial things, as Wonkette has done in her piece ~ "He called gay marriage the path of Satan or something. (Sorry, gays, that probably does not feel nice!) But, when his native Argentina was facing gay marriage... (facing gay marriage? facing? *aaargh* but this man has enormous power over others in the physical world, and if he continues to promote lies and evil acts, he will further the widespread hatred, persecution, assault, murder, and even suicide of LGBT persons.

I sincerely hope that the wiser and more loving Catholics will take it upon themselves to help this dangerous man learn what Love really is, and subsequently prevent him from causing further harm and destruction to humanity.

(Sorry if I don't think Pope Francis is the greatest thing since sliced bread; for some god forsaken reason, he apparently hates me and my LGBT brothers and sisters, and we never did a single thing to harm him at all, ever)

How Wonkette can dismiss hate speech toward us while she shimmers in fury over criticisms of the Pope as she claims to follow the faith of the Golden Rule is beyond me. She actually says that hate speech toward us is no big deal, but any words of criticism for that hate speech is equal to bigotry. Harm to others does not matter at all, criticism toward her own is like Geller, bigotry, but calling gay people Satanic is just 'sorry gays, that must hurt...BUT...'

How many here know, that as a Catholic, I can follow my conscience over the teachings of the church, and I do so often.

--odds are Francis will be the one. I don't expect rapid changes, but I'm betting most will be in the right direction.

I want to respect, even love the Catholic church. I want this Pope to be what he seems to be. I know that there are still going to be differences, but the current direction looks good.
How the times change: I'm Jewish and like the Pope; Santorum is Catholic and doesn't.

Keeping my fingers crossed, as it were.

Hekate

They'll hate it.

Seriously, I mean it. It looks like Francis is about as progressive a Pope as we can expect to get at this time in history. Now he needs to go further and declare the Vatican document, Crimen Solicitationis, null and void and throw pedophile priests out of the church and into the hands of the authorities.

TlalocW

The Church will not be able to start to regain credibility if it doesn't deal decisively with the pedophiles and those who covered up their crimes.

Concerning Pope Francis. I do concur that the symbolic changes the new Pope has championed are a very welcome tactical success. And this is probably the best route to embark on at this juncture because tone is so vital to the process of change. But make no mistake, the real rubber hits the road when Pope Francis lays out to the world the missteps of the Church hierarchy in the pedophile Preist era and the punishment he hands down to finally lance this festered puss sac that is so visable to the world. And waiting for Pope Nazi to die is not an option.

John Paul l lasted 33 days in 1978. Questions surround his death. Word was he wanted to make big changes...................

I'm an Atheist and I think Francis is a heckuva improvement. Dude's setting the bar for future Popes.

As a Catholic progressive, I beg you, give Francis time. He's far from perfect, but he IS the first glimmer of hope we have seen since John XXIII or ( possibly ) John Paul I!

In my opinion:

A church that says that Aids is bad but condoms are worse, that equates homosexuality with satan, and that still covers up the crimes of tens of thousands of child rapists, does not get a pass just because their new leader staged a photo op. They might be pretending concern, but I doubt the "traditionalists" care about girl feet. The new pope can have those so long as he leave the little boys to them.

teabaggers. I like the line here, "Honestly, when some of you talk about the Catholic Church, you sound like Pam Gellar talking about Muslins." But it's the damn truth.


"Sniffing that there’s no difference between New Pope and Nazi Pope is like sniffing that there’s no difference between Bush and Gore, because Al Gore isn’t Ralph Nader." Yup, it's always the same damn group that's never happy about a damn thing.

criticism of that hate speech.
" He called gay marriage the path of Satan or something. (Sorry, gays, that probably does not feel nice!)"

So is that not then how she is asking to be treated? Did someone criticize the inhuman dogma of your church? Sorry guys, that probably does not feel nice. That's all you got coming. Sorry guys.
The Pope calls us Satanic, and that is brushed off 'sorry guys' but honest and direct criticisms of him are bigotry? Explain to me in your wisdom how the Golden Rule is reflected in this OP, or in your own post. The Golden Rule is from the Bible, in case it is news to you. Treat others as you wish to be treated. If you react to hate speech from your own toward others with off hand dismissal and disrespect, Jesus said that is what you will get in return. If you say 'your family is of Satan' then you have exactly that measure of speech owed to you according to Jesus.
So explain.

you seem to have struck them all dumb.. as in 'mute', of course.

"Christ did not condemn gays or anyone else but said let he who is without sin cast the first stone while defending an adultress. And no one did. Does this mean Christ agreed with adultery? It only implies he did not want us to condemn someone because of their sexual behavior. It makes me wonder what was not recorded. Was there a similar incident regarding someone about to be persecuted for being gay, or caught in a gay act."

Adultery is a choice.

Being LGBT is an inherent characteristic, just like being white is a condition of birth. I could no more change my being LGBT than you could change your being white. or black, or whatever.

The seeming implication of the quoted paragraph above is that, although Christ does not approve of people being LGBT, he does not condemn people for being LGBT.

Do you believe that Jesus does not approve of persons who were born LGBT?

After reading your post, I have a question for you ~ if the Church was still rampantly persecuting non-believers and imprisoning and burning witches and heretics, and sanctioning and funding Crusades, and removing indigenous children from their homes in order to reprogram them, and being an organized, powerful factor in promoting and sanctioning the persecution of LGBT persons, would you speak out, would you take serious action to try to stop it?

If it's your house, and Christ's house, then why don't y'all clean it, and maybe call in a really good exorcist?

Here's some reality based historical fact:

Evil flourishes wherever and whenever good people do little or nothing to try to stop it.

That when an opportunity arose for Christ to speak out about and condemn a sexual behavior that was contrary to social and religious norms, he chose not to and chose to preach to not condemn. That's as close as He got to discussing any sexual behavior. He was silent as far as we know on the subject of same sex lifestyles. So I'm trying to infer Christ would take the same position regarding gays as he did with the adulteress, a position of acceptance and forgiveness as we have no other references to sexual behavior by Him. Acceptance because we're all God's children and forgiveness because we are all sinners.

Do I believe that Jesus does not approve of persons who were born LGBT? Absolutely not. I believe, if anything he would disapprove of an act of homosexuality. Not the person because of an inherent trait.

And if the Church were still committing the heinous acts it did a few hundred years ago, yes I'd speak out. I speak out now within the church when the opportunity presents itself. It's not a constant crusade I'm on within the Church as I don't operate like that. I bring it up in conversations. I plant seeds and nourish them. Lots of them. Some grow, some flourish, a few never had a chance. Change does not come quickly. But it will, I do believe.

I like that quote.

adultery causes harm, usually involves subterfuge, and is generally regarded as underhanded, where as having sex with the same sex doesn't need to involve ANY of those things, it is harmless, and more than that, can be healthy and fulfilling.

This fucker compares the two, which is the hallmark of a bigot.

get over it.

hopefully in the future, this will not continue to go unnoticed or ignored.

and that's coming from an atheist!!

as far as santorum, better to be pissed off than pissed on, although, if i ever get close enough to that evil little shit, i will piss on him. he lives a couple miles from me.....argh.

Sometimes you go with the flow to get into power and then change things when you have it. I'm not optimistic that this is the case with the Pope, but I'll wait and see.

Dear Wonkette: ^this is why we talk about you like that. No, it does not "feel nice". And until the Church stances on women, LGBT, birth control, pedophile priests and other little trivialities are fixed, instead of just talking about maybe fixing them some day when the stars align perfectly and the moon is in the 7th house etc., that talk is probably going to continue. There's no getting around it. The Catholic rank and file may not be bigots but your leaders ARE. It would probably be more to your benefit if you aimed your bigotry lectures at them instead of the people criticizing them, because a lot of those critical people are people who have been harmed and discriminated against thanks, in whole or part, to their policies. It's going to take a bit more than washing some girl feet to impress those people. It really is. You know what impresses people like that? Results do. K?

Yeah, people hated us when Dubya was prez, but see, it was up to us to get a better guy in there, which we did. Your move.

~Signed, an offended female LGBT who uses condoms.