I agree that is the way it should be. But the entire discussion on this site has been about the reaction to those protests, and I can't help but notice that some men respond very differently to a woman bearing her breasts than to a woman using Twitter. Some of these same people are also comfortable condemning sexism abroad yet refuse to confront or even acknowledge the problem here in the US. Violence against women is problematic overseas, but not "real" or consequential here in the US, despite the fact that at least 1 in 3 women in the US are subject to battery or rape from their partners.

And you can certainly take this as you will.

But, in reading the recent debates, my mind broke things down into two camps. There were people who saw what the young woman was doing and praising her for her heroism and ownership as a woman, and there were those who were making issue of men ogling her nether parts.

And that left a question in my mind. What is most important to feminism? A woman claiming agency for herself, or worrying about what men would think of it? Did your mind naturally drift towards "Look at her. She is awesome for taking this risk in this culture." Or, did you immediately think "Men will see breasts and react to them!"

If it was the latter, I want to ask the question, where does your core of feminism radiate from? (Not you, specifically. It's a general question). Is the idea of feminism woman-based (This woman is owning her body and identity), or is it male-based (what will men think of what you've done).

And there's a divide there. A serious divide. How we see feminism, I think, is colored by where we're coming from. Again, I think.

As a gay man, I'm not invested in women as sexual objects. I can look at this a little bit from the outside, if you'll allow me that luxury. And it does seem like there are two camps there. There are feminists who look at it from the feminist's perspective and perceive empowerment, and feminists who are worried about the male perspective and seeing exploitation.

But, from my position, I always look to what the woman herself is doing. (I guess you could say it's an empowered perspective). What is happening with her, where is she doing it, what's the context, what impact is she having?). I'm concerned with purely female agency. I know men might go "Wheee, boobies!" But that's noise. I want to hear the female voice, the female perspective, the female statement that is going down. What is that woman doing, and what does she want us to hear? That is the voice I'm most interested in hearing.

Whatever form of protest they choose or if they decide not to protest. Amina had agency before she took part in Femen. I expect that was not her first protest, but it was the act the media focused on because it involved nudity. Bearing her breasts did not give Amina agency, but if that is how she or women in the Ukraine or anywhere else choose to get their point across, that is their decision. Far be it from me to pass judgment on that.

As an American, I have very little ability to affect conditions women face in Algeria or the Ukraine. My influence is over my own life and those around me. That is true for most of us. There are some comfortable with supporting women demanding equality abroad because it has no impact on their own lives. But those same people express outrage that men are expected to follow EEOC laws in the workplace and that someone might be fired for violating them. Call me cynical, but I don't believe these people care about the fate of women in Algeria or in the US. These same individuals deny the very real circumstances of epidemic levels of domestic violence and rape in this country. They don't believe that American's women's concerns are real because apparently murder and rape are more serous at the hands of a Muslim man than a non-Muslim American. I happen to think rape is rape and murder is murder, regardless of where it takes place or the religion, nationality, or political affiliation of the assailant.

To me, claiming one is for women's rights is meaningless if they see it as something that is only important abroad, particularly when they have little ability to impact those circumstances. Where they can make a change is in the US, yet many refuse to acknowledge any change is necessary. They become angry at any mention of rape or sexism because they see it as "misandry." A few of these people demonstrate complete callousness when talking to victims of rape and domestic violence and even ridicule them. That kind of insensitivity to American women, while fawning all over a topless Algerian woman, tells me their interests are largely voyeuristic. I'm not going to pretend I don't see hypocrisy when it's right in front of my face. I'm not going to applaud these people who constantly work to undermine feminist causes because they happen to like seeing a woman with her clothes off.

Protest is meant to bring about change. Whether Femen will be successful, I don't know. I don't feel the same need you express to applaud the agency of Femen activists because I know they have agency irrespective of those acts. If their protests start to bring about change, I'll be very pleased. In the meantime, I can only observe their actions from abroad.

I've always thought that feminists telling other women what they can and cannot do is a bit ironic.

I don't agree with nudity as a form of protest, probably because I couldn't see myself doing it and it is, even if a feminist is doing it, something that is done to shock and draw attention. Sex sells, nudity sells and generally those sales are aimed at men, that's a fact. So I find myself wondering if a feminist who uses nudity to make her point realizes that she's playing into the patriarchal role of selling sex.

That said, I also think it's not my place to tell a woman how to use her body. It's her body and me trying to tell her what to do with it goes against (my) feminist principals. It's not for me to tell her she's wrong or that she shouldn't do it. I can surely have an opinion about it, no one is denying anyone their opinion but when that opinion becomes Authoritism, that's where the line is obliterated and a feminist using feminism to denounce any other woman's actions has just handed the patriarchy a win (IMO).

I say hogwash. Your post proves it. You get the patriarchy and how it robs all of us, women, men, straight, gay, etc. of personal agency. I've never heard it described so succinctly.

Thank you from a feminist.

That goes for men, that goes for women, that goes for all consenting adults.

And yes, consent and adults are real concepts with real definitions that are real for a reason, and adults can consent just as they can NOT consent.

Still here? Good.

This issue, or philosophical baseline, plugs into a whole ton of shit or debates or cruddy-ass moral authoritarian "crusades", depending on how you look at them. I have been called every awful name in the book, even the dreaded "l" one, because I take as my starting point, again, that the bodies of consenting adults belong to THEMSELVES. Not the State, not the Church, not "God", but their own damn selves.

So if a consenting adult man, or woman, wants to have sex with another consenting adult man, or woman, that's their business.

If they want to take their clothes off, or have sex in front of a camera- again, all consenting, all adults- their own damn business.

If they want to put assorted chemicals into their own bloodstream, insofar as they're not driving a car, endangering others, neglecting their kids, or otherwise committing a crime above and beyond, again, doing something with their nervous system the government doesn't approve of... yeah, that's their business too. At least, it should be the starting point from which we consider half-assed ideas like the "Drug War". Peoples' bodies are their own property.

If they want to use birth control, or a woman is pregnant and she wants an abortion- it's her body, it's her call. No one else has the right to make that call for her.

And if they're terminally ill or in terminal pain, and able to make sound decisions, they ought to be able to choose a pain-free exit if that's what they want. Because, again, it's their life, it's their body. It's their call.

At the end of the day, if we don't own ourselves, we got nothin'.