Because our dysfunctional political system requires that our politicians dance to the tune of a small but loud minority of religious lunatics with a belief in the so-called second coming that most of them can't even agree on when it will happen. In the meantime, while we wait for Jesus to show up, which could be soon or in a thousand years or (in my opinion) never, the whole world goes to shit.

Yeats' poem never was more apt:

I love Yeats. You're right. It's perfectly apt.

As for what we can do: Gerrymandering is key. Republicans control state legislatures and they gerrymander districts to protect themselves. Then the only challenge they face is from the right and the far nut right. We get control of state legislatures and in ten years or so we can set the redistricting. Of course the climate continues to change in the meantime, but it gives us a plan of action.

It'll be tough, but we CAN do it.

but it fits our times well. Yeats is brilliant.

This is another of my favorite's, completely different in subject matter. He wrote it about his unrequited love, Maude Gonne.

When You Are Old
BY WILLIAM BUTLER YEATS

When you are old and grey and full of sleep,
And nodding by the fire, take down this book,
And slowly read, and dream of the soft look
Your eyes had once, and of their shadows deep;

How many loved your moments of glad grace,
And loved your beauty with love false or true,
But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;

And bending down beside the glowing bars,
Murmur, a little sadly, how Love fled
And paced upon the mountains overhead
And hid his face amid a crowd of stars.

Now all the truth is out,
Be secret and take defeat
from any brazen throat,
For how can you compete,
Being honor bred, with one
Who, were it proved he lies,
Were neither shamed in his own
Nor in his neighbors' eyes?

Bred to a harder thing
Than triumph, turn away
And like a laughing string
Where on mad fingers play
Amid a place of stone,
Be secret and exult,
Because of all things known,
That is most difficult.

***

the part i paraphrased as 'one can't compete with the shameless':

For how can you compete,
Being honor bred, with one
Who, were it proved he lies,
Were neither shamed in his own
Nor in his neighbors' eyes?

to progress in America, and maybe the entire world.

There was scientific innovation during the Golden Age of the Islamic world.

http://teachmiddleeast.lib.uchicago.edu/foundations/golden-age-islam/

http://www.elbahnasawy.com/author/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48:islamic..

I was first going to link to the Wikipedia article on the Golden Age but I noticed they had none of the great scientists. George Saliba (Columbia U) demonstrates the influence of Muslim scientists on the Renaissance:

http://muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=675

up a shitty situation for Heaven to come down and glory to fill their souls.

It will take a lot longer than 1000 years for the process of recombining the elements on Earth to heal her and turn the streets to Gold. Dalton's Law of Multiple Proportions explains that so easily.

Churches supporting money changer fascist that destroy Earth faster than the Earth can heal itself, is no way to Welcome Christ back.

Perhaps some need to re-read the Bible.

nt

That when the second coming happens He will "destroy them that destroy the earth"

The combination of those factors is a pretty tough adversary.

Democrats focus so much on national elections we haven't mobilized enough to get control of state legislatures where redistricting happens. Republican congressmen are in secure seats where they only have to worry from challenges by the fringe right who believe this crap. It's up to us to take back control of state governments so we can set redistricting after the next census.

They can mobilize these folks for school board elections, put creationists in as dog catcher, etc. and it translates into off-year electoral muscle.

I do hope next year's midterms will buck the trend.

Sometimes I'm amazed we've survived this long as a species.

is new. In previous generations, people were not exposed to much information. Now they have access to so much, they have decided not to consider anything they don't agree with a priori. The refusal to consider any scientific evidence, to the point where GOP congressmen are beholden to the nut case base's view of the world, is doing incredible damage. In previous generations elites had access to knowledge. Now those government representatives reject knowledge in favor of dogma. It's willful stupidity.

spouting the same message while men practiced self castration to the Mater Goddess?

We didn't make it.

If there is such a thing as time travel(I personally lean towards yes; I'll admit I have a fondness for quantum mechanics and stuff), it's possible that nobody's either found us yet or hasn't bothered to come here.....

That's low and ignorant, even for you.

I'm sorry, but I've had too much experience to not know better by now.

We need to combat bullshit & ignorance on BOTH sides, just like with any other issue, I don't care if it's gun control, or the SS dilemma, or how to break ourselves away from the control of those ne'er-do-wells amongst the 1%. If we don't, especially with something like climate change, then we ALL lose.....like it or not.

what you really crave is some centrism.

I am just WAAAYYY too sensible & rational about climate change for your tastes. I get that. Still doesn't change the fact that I'm one of the people closer to the truth than you guys.

they probably would shot him/her dead.

....as well.

TBH, it seems that many of them have a surprisingly similar core line of thought compared to the Evangelical nutjobs, just with different terminology; humans are parasites. Climate change is going to (possibly and/or inevitably, I don't think there's a difference anymore) kill humanity/destroy civilization within this century. We must stop consumption to survive(what kind of a bullshit motto is that anyhow?). Embrace our imminent demise. the IPCC is lying about and/or hiding the true extent of climate change, anyone who disagrees with us is a "denier" or "minimizer", etc.

Now, compare this to the Fundies: Humans are sinful. The world shall come to an end within the Last Generation, and the Antichrist shall rule the world for 7 years. We must reject worldly things to be saved by Jesus. Embrace & rejoice over the Tribulation, for it is soon to come. The secularists are conspiring to silence Christians and to turn people away from the Word of God. Anyone who disagrees with us is a heathen & going to hell, etc.

See the similarities, folks? There are MANY.

To distill this to a simple concept: Humans are inherently evil. We are irrevocably fucked somehow(even though we have no proof of why!). You must follow us to survive. We are going to be proven right(because we say so!). There is a conspiracy against us(monsters under the bed! *Screech*!). Anyone who disagrees with us is the "other&quot and, therefore, bad). Etc.

We need try to educate the more moderate Republicans, but we have also GOT to do a better job of debunking the wacko B.S. coming from our side or we will continue to be marginalized. That is the truth, those are the facts, and I'm sticking to them.

Nice straw man, btw.

I could perhaps spend a few whole days and dig up DOZENS of pieces of evidence that I've come across over the years, but it'd possibly unintentionally derail the thread and besides, it never works anyhow.

(P.S. nice attempt to deflect, btw. It's quite befitting.)

Equating fundamentalists to so called 'doomers' is ridiculous.

First of all, all life is parasitic is some form or fashion.
Climate change could very well fuck our current civilization if not dealt with.
Notice, I said current civilization? That means other human civilizations will follow us, likely ones that our grandchildren might curse us for.
Consumption is a huge problem. There is no reason to not conserve, be frugal, and minimize one's impact on the world around them. A transition to other economic forms that do not stress consumptive behavior is definitely needed.
Embrace our immanent demise? Why would a 'doomer' advocate that? The whole point of 'their' philosophy is to wake people the fuck up from their consumption induced coma so that we can pull humanity's collective ass out of the fire.
The IPCC lays out a pretty grim picture already, but it is hard to fault some folks for thinking that the IPCC may have softballed their predictions. Data since that study was released have only shown that climate change is increasing faster than expected.
I have not seen anyone that considers others that accept climate change as fact be attacked as a denier. Minimizer, definitely though. I don't see that as being any different from you describing them as exaggerators, which is all a matter of opinion.
But going so far as to somehow put 'doomers' in league with end-timers? That is pretty extreme.

Equating fundamentalists to so called 'doomers' is ridiculous.

Climate change could very well fuck our current civilization if not dealt with.

Notice, I said current civilization?

That means other human civilizations will follow us, likely ones that our grandchildren might curse us for.

Consumption is a huge problem. There is no reason to not conserve, be frugal, and minimize one's impact on the world around them. A transition to other economic forms that do not stress consumptive behavior is definitely needed.

Embrace our immanent demise? Why would a 'doomer' advocate that?

The whole point of 'their' philosophy is to wake people the fuck up from their consumption induced coma so that we can pull humanity's collective ass out of the fire.

The IPCC lays out a pretty grim picture already, but it is hard to fault some folks for thinking that the IPCC may have softballed their predictions.

Data since that study was released have only shown that climate change is increasing faster than expected.

I have not seen anyone that considers others that accept climate change as fact be attacked as a denier. Minimizer, definitely though.

I don't see that as being any different from you describing them as exaggerators, which is all a matter of opinion.

But going so far as to somehow put 'doomers' in league with end-timers? That is pretty extreme.

Whereas those who deny climate change have a major cable news channel.

There may be far fewer doomers than deniers(thank goodness, though I wish Monckton & company would fuck off, too), but the doomers are still part of the problem, even if not intentionally.

I'm sure you may have heard about the problem of "climate fatigue", right?

http://www.yaleclimatemediaforum.org/2011/10/is-climate-fatigue-setting-in/

http://e360.yale.edu/feature/apocalypse_fatigue_losing_the_public_on_climate_change/2210/

These are old pieces, yes, but VERY valuable insight is to be found in both articles.

But I guess that makes me all doomy, and unfit for decent company. Sorry you're so "fatigued". Guess I'd better work on my messaging, huh? Wouldn't want to harsh anyone's mellow, or potentially damage next quarter's SUV sales projections.

Whatfuckingever.

http://www.science20.com/cool-links/pliocene_redux_earth_will_have_co2_levels_not_seen_5_million_years-110447

http://science.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/03/18041136-greenhouse-gas-levels-near-milestone-highest-in-millions-of-years?lite

This obviously isn't what I was referring to, and you damn well know that by now.

Claim that you have all the facts and those who don't agree with you lack understanding and just don't get it.
Gotcha. Congrats, you have the same MO as the extremists.



On edit: I went to E&E as you suggested. I didn't find any articles that you are talking about.
What I saw seemed to be informational, ranging from hopeful to depressing, rather than 'doom'like.

I never once claimed, or even implied, that I had all the facts. You, however, genuinely don't seem to understand the problem, sad to say.

I went to E&E as you suggested. I didn't find any articles that you are talking about.
What I saw seemed to be informational, ranging from hopeful to depressing, rather than 'doom'like

at the end of the rant that I responded too:

We need try to educate the more moderate Republicans, but we have also GOT to do a better job of debunking the wacko B.S. coming from our side or we will continue to be marginalized. That is the truth, those are the facts, and I'm sticking to them.

And, again, because I don't agree with you on the 'facts', you say I don't understand 'the problem'.

Oh please, attacking folks that think things are way worse than is reported in the corporate owned M$M as fundamentalists is not remotely productive. It is false equivalency.

The problem is as the OP presents, that fundamentalists and corporate thugs control the GOP and the messaging about climate science.

There is no equality in their impact on the climate debate.

You've used that one a few times in this thread but I wonder how many of the
recipients know how little *you* have been around E & E ...



I notice that you're still banned over there for repeated trolling so I guess that
you've set up camp in GD instead ... in the hope that people will believe your
particular brand of denialist bullshit or that the lax "rules" in GD will allow you
to continually post lies about environmentalists without being called on it.

But apparently, you were more than a little eager to pick a fight with me, so let's end this now.

You've used that one a few times in this thread but I wonder how many of the
recipients know how little *you* have been around E & E ...

I notice that you're still banned over there for repeated trolling so I guess that
you've set up camp in GD instead

in the hope that people will believe your
particular brand of denialist bullshit

or that the lax "rules" in GD will allow you
to continually post lies about environmentalists

without being called on it.

>> I notice that you're still banned over there for repeated trolling so I guess that
>> you've set up camp in GD instead
>
> Even though I had never actually done such a thing (and you damn well know it, too) even once

You were always trolling - and yes, I damn well know it too - and you are apparently doing the same
here: your first post on this thread (#15) introduces your favourite term "climate doomers" and
your second (#16) directly links "believing in 24-karat bullshit" to "our friends at E & E".


> and there were REAL trolls that I was victimized by who were NEVER held to account
> for ANY of their bullshit.

Well I must apologise as I don't recall ever seeing you on the receiving end of a troll post
but, as you are so certain about it, I'm sure it must have happened and it isn't just another
attempt to deflect.


> What denialism? You know, every time I ask a doomer troll what they mean by "denialism",
> they always end up being evasive and scurrying away like fucking cockroaches, or giving
> out half-baked answers that make no real sense.

In your case:

1) Constantly spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) over scientific evidence that is clear,
consistent and undeniable (except by one vested in opposing science & logic).

2) Distraction from the topics that cause discomfort to the denier's worldview.

3) Repeatedly thread-jacking then diversion to luke-warm whining (e.g., finishing your note
with an attempt to link opponents to "Obama bashers" ... really?).

4) Refusal to accept that solutions (or mitigation attempts if one wishes to be more honest)
will most definitely mean the end of Business As Usual, usually by means of thinly-veiled
prayers to the Gods of Future Technology to preserve the level of luxury currently enjoyed.

5) Repeatedly replying to posts attacking the extreme denier mentality with a red herring
implying that taking a bleak view of the situation is somehow "the same thing" - the
desperate attempt to create a false equivalence in order that the resulting centrism
(also known as Business As Usual) is the only realistic response.


No, you have never adopted the moronic Inhofe or Monckton level of stupidityand that
has not been an accusation of you (AFAIK) as you play the game far smarter than that.
You are not primarily a seller of lies, merely a spreader of FUD and a poster of distractions.


> For all your whining about supposed "trolling", you sure are looking like a total hypocrite right about now.

Nope, I know that when it's got to the stage where you have to hide behind the facade of being
"an Obama supporter", the associated attempts to link people who dare to question your unsupported
smears to those "bashing the POTUS 24/7" and accusations of "'Chicken Little' paranoia" then
I have hit the sensitive spot once more.

Enjoy "moving back on now" in GD - I don't have time to keep track of the volume of traffic here
so I'm sure that your other dribblings will remain largely unopposed and you can even try to work
on that "kinda consider myself as an environmentalist, even if only casually so" image.

The people on our "Science" committees are the scariest bunch of hoodoo voodoo Christo-Taliban types.

Sure, at least they don't reject the science outright like the fundies do, but then they DO twist it to suit their own particular screwy narratives.

Here's two of the more hardcore examples of such lunacy:

guymcpherson.com

http://www.apollo-gaia.org/Climate%20Sensitivity.pdf

We need some ACTUAL intellectually honest people on the science committee: Peter Sinclair, Andrew Revkin, & Katherine Hayhoe would be amongst the first people on my "Dream Team" if I were POTUS(Dr. Hansen's a good guy but has gone a little far off the path in recent years, just like Dr. Lovelock did).

Let's be intellectually honest. Do you even know?

But I'm sure you know my beef by now.

One really big example I can think of, off the top of my head, was the furor that ensued last summer when that big AMEG paper by Malcolm P.R. Light came out, assuring us that methane was supposedly starting to massively leak out of the Arctic in such quantities that all life on Earth would cease to exist by mid-century. That, of course, was utter junk & bull, but a LOT of people really bought into it, and I was one of those people who said, right from the beginning, in fact, that "Look, guys, this shit doesn't add up".

And then there were certain people repeating & promoting highly dubious claims from guys like David Wasdell and Guy McPherson, about, respectively, this "Earth Systems" mumbo-jumbo(with 7.8*C sensitivity per doubling, no less! No shit, he really said that.), and a claim that we'd be hitting 16*C above today's levels by 2100(I don't remember any links, but if I find any, I'll send it to you, if you're willing to let me do that), and I was one of the FEW active posters calling it out for the bullshit that it was.

And that's just the TIP of this iceberg of colossal intellectual dishonesty & total fail.

Although Nobel prizewinner Steven Chu "buys into" the methane bit, people should instead listen to AverageJoe90 who's too lazy to even tell us why.

Rich.

Show me where you think Steve Chu bought into Malcolm Light's poorly-done paper.

And I already gave examples of the problem, yet you've turn a blind eye to it. You just can't accept the truth, just like an Obama basher won't accept that he's being too hard on the President....or, better yet, just like a denier who can't accept that Co2 is a greenhouse gas and that human activities have contributed quite significantly to present warming conditions.

many, many conservatives refuse to do), they just are in favor of it continuing to speed up the arrival of the "end of times". Their vision of the future is truly warped, but they (conveniently) accept the science of climate change and the (inadvisable from their point of view) steps that can be taken to affect it. Of course, like most conservatives, they accept these facts only because they fit their world view, not because they believe that facts should govern policy decisions.

(no text)

"Well, Jesus is coming, forget about saving the planet, we should be using it up as fast as we can."

I've heard this and the like many times.

it is not waste and destruction
just ask and you shall receive a new or better world free of all this if you beleve !

to "subdue the earth". That is the scripture used as their reference when they to do as they please because it doesn't matter... Jesus is coming soon.

Genesis 1:28
and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

I was told their interpretation of replenish is to have as many children as possible and stock up on supplies.

You know, like all good Christians do... ignore the parts of the Bible they disagree with, and only agree to the parts that sound agreeable.

Selective cherry-picking. The rest is all metaphor.

from sources like power plants, cars and factories in an effort to reduce global warming?
Published: August 23, 2012
http://www.washingtonpost.com/page/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2012/08/18/National-Politics/Polling/question_6371.xml

74% favor of regulation

Hope Jesus does not need a Visa to get into this country. Those pictures make him look suspicious. I bet he won't have an papers either. Of course a few on the spot miracles might help.

Posted by Scott Clement on April 22, 2013 at 3:00 pm



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/04/22/how-americans-see-global-warming-in-8-charts/

The real reason is that they are too damn cheap to pay more for renewable energy and they think they'll be dead before anything really nasty happens due to global warming. And they just aren't all that concerned about future generations.

But it sounds a lot better to say "Jesus will save us" than to say "I'm a greedy bastard, and I don't care."

I think they've gotten so used to picking their own facts, they discount everything that doesn't confirm their preexisting view of the world. Global climate change is already costing us a great deal of money in relief for hurricanes and other storms, higher food prices from drought, etc.. .

If anything, it makes it worse, because they will just shift their excuse to something else whenever the Jesus thing stops working for them.

Well out of the flood zones. This is already heaven on earth

well one way or another!

But I still have plans for tomorrow.

Progressives would feed and clothe him, find a way to tend to any ailments he had and maybe even find work for him.

Conservatives on the other hand would detain him, check to see if he were on a terrorist watch list then ship him back to Mexico.

Since his origin is Palestinian.

(Sorry, ripped that off from an old WWII-era Warner Bros. cartoon. )

All religions don't see themselves in conflict with science. Christian fundamentalism seems particularly hostile to science.

...but our fossil-fuel addiction is what's preventing action.

I seem to recall something about his dismissing environmentalism as a whole because a wacky interpretation of the you-shall-be-lord-over-the-earth verses, to him, meant that it was actually not possible to mismanage things, because God wouldn't allow it.

...not joking.

Liberal religion on the other hand, doesn't seem to even care about converting people from these RW sects, much less persuading them that global warming has to be tackled.