percent wise very low.

People have run over their own kids in the driveway, electrocuted themselves but drilling into walls, etc and so on.

If we had 100 accidents a day that would be 36.500 per year. Or 0.07%

How about we have some news articles everyday about people who didn't screw up - probably because you would have about 50 million stories to post --- but then that doesn't scare people and re-enforce the stereotype we are trying to create. Kind of like how the rw does with muslims - sell fear of them and parade any that can help you do so.

I doubt it, because then it would soon be someone you know. And suddenly it would matter to you.

I hold the people who did it responsible, not guns (and these people were criminals and should not have owned a gun in the first place - another law we don't fund enough to enforce...but hey, let's make new ones since those ones aren't working)

And not saying it isn't a 'big deal' but statistically speaking it is to be expected for just about anything one could consider dangerous - cars, knives, 4 wheelers, lawn darts, pools, etc.

From 2005-2009, there were an average of 3,533 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day. An additional 347 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents. That does not even count accidents/injuries related to pools.

There are roughly 10 million pools in the US. Gun accidents are around 14k-18k/year and there are 200 million plus guns (but let's just count owners at 50M). The accident rate is pretty much the same.

consider dangerous - cars, knives, 4 wheelers, lawn darts, pools, etc. "

Lawn darts? Thank you for trivializing this important issue.

statistics are the only thing that matters, because it allows Uncle Wayne, and the "cold dead hands" fetishists to justify their Second Amendment phobia, and the adoration of their "precious," by manipulating those numbers in order to prove their absurd talking points.

To the Gungeoneers, a few thousand deaths and injuries every year is a small price to pay for their freedom to add to the unfettered proliferation of all things gunz in this nation. How dare anyone use Sandy Hook as an example of the need for gun control! That's just being opportunistic and exploitive.

You see, when the mean old Democrats come to take away "our" (they speak for ALL Americans don't ya know) guns, only the NRA apologists, gun hoarders, and preppers will be able to protect us.

I mean, just look if we apply it to alcohol

hundreds of thousands of people die each year due directly and indirectly to alcohol consumption. Approx. 3/10 kids grow up in a household where atleast 1 adult in the house has a drinking problem. There is a strong correlation to alcoholism and child abuse. The societal cost of alcohol consumption is in the billions.

Is this all worth it so that you can enjoy a cold one every now and then?

Gungeoneer response: people die from many other causes, so why should we do anything about gun violence? Thousands of gun deaths and injuries every year is a small price to pay in order to protect the sanctity of the Second Amendment. Let's ban ice picks and slippery sidewalks instead.

Yes alcohol abuse is just as much of a public health issue as gun violence, especially when the two go together. We have managed to reduce the number of alcohol-related automobile deaths through stiffer penalties, more regulation, and increased awareness. Why not take a similar approach with guns? Get a DUI, lose your gun for a year. Physically abuse a family member (drunk or sober), lose your gun for five years. Exhibit ANY sort of aggressive, anti-social behavior, whether it's a felony or a misdemeanor, lose your gun forever.

Yeah, I know. alcohol, automobiles, hammers, swimming pools, kitchen knives, skateboards, and toilet seats are not protected by the Constitution of the United States, so we can regulate the shit out of those things. But don't even TRY to regulate your precious gun, or we'll have to pry it from your cold dead hands.

If my memory serves me, your next NRA talking point should address something about the trustworthiness of our government, and the need to be prepared to defend ourselves against tyranny. Or was it about the need to put food on your family (credits to Dubya)? Or maybe to fight crime in the streets as a self-appointed vigilante like Zimmerman?

And BTW, I don't drink alcohol, and my cold ones are usually iced tea.

now let's apply the same solution.

Simply pointing out that the same problems exist across the board - there will always be a few who do stupid things with anything.

Why punish/tarnish the many based on the few?

We don't like it when it is done in other scenarios. We call it bigotry and stereotyping - all I have done is show that guns are no different than many other things and the problems are not gun themselves but people in general.

People drown in pools - mainly because they are not supervised, are drunk, etc - those things are tragedies as well, but do you care enough about them to pass new laws, ban things, etc?

Kids shoot other kids at home for the same reason - no parental control. We see kids in gangs shooting others, stealing, selling drugs, and so on - all the while parents are absent or not in control.

Why keep blaming objects when the stats show it is not the object but the people involved?

Over 99% of legal gun owners are responsible - but we choose to throw out the few who are not and vilify those who are.

If all you have in way of argument is 'some group I hate uses the same factual information' then you really don't have an argument - you just have hatred and anger of a few and want to utilize that hate. Much like the rw does on other topics (ie muslims).

Sometimes I don't know what site I am on - is it one filled with liberals who want intelligent discourse to understand issues or one where we want to railroad the many based on the few and then claim that such logic is flawed - unless we use it.

Principles are important - but we so love to hate those same principles when it does not back up our own particular prejudices.

response to me? it has ZILCH to do with me- what anger? what hate? Since this doesn't actually appear to be a genuine reaction to my posts, I have to wonder the source.

I did not. I simply showed that if you want to make a federal issue out of things then based on data you have a lot more fish to fry.

If you want to protect people/kids then use the same core ideals across the board.

What you will end up with is 99% of people not causing problems but because the 1% do you want to limit the rest in their freedoms.

If I came out and said we need to do more about Muslims in our society based on what a few have done I would be called a bigot. If I say that we need to shore up our southern borders because of all the illegals coming in and costing us money I would be xenophobic. But if I say less than 1% of gun owners hurt others and we should treat them all like they were the 1% it is good.

Folks really hate it when it is pointed out they are just as biased as the people they complain about being biased.

If I started a thread each day to show how illegal immigrants from south of the border were hurting others I would be run out of DU on a rail (old saying). How dare you blame the many based on what the few do, etc and so on.

And yet, we have that here everyday on one issue. And we eat it up because it feeds our own biases.

Guess we don't care really about that whole principle thing. Easy to be sucked in and toss it out the window when it suits our needs.

I can't really discuss things with someone who is reacting to things I never said, and going all all sorts of stupid tangents.
I don't waste my time arguing with libertarian bullshit.

I was just asking why you had the nerve to reduce these deaths to trivia- statistics. Which you obviously did. Good for you!

It is not trivializing anything to note that the issue at hand is not statistically different than other issues.

It does raise the question though as to why want to treat one issue differently than others.

time, that it was exactly what you did. You expressed that the amount of deaths that occurred were : incidental, inconsequential, inconsiderable, insignificant, negligible, and relatively unimportant compared to this nebulous "freedom" that guns are such an important part of.

And comparing guns to lawn darts is making a joke of those deaths. Own it. Maybe you could get some signs like the Westboro goons and tell the families those deaths are okay, because that's the price of your " freedoms".

lecture on behalf of the righteousness of "over 99% of gun owners." I never knew until you so graciously educated me that only .08% of gun owners are NOT responsible with their guns. That would be the .08% that allows their guns to be stolen, sold, traded, and straw-purchased which result in the millions of guns in the hands of criminals in this country wouldn't it?

Therein lies the answer to our dilemma: identify that .08%, and take their guns away. What's that? We can't take away the guns of the .08% who are not being responsible because it is their Constitutional right to have them? Well what if, and this is only a supposition, we passed a few laws that made just those .08% be more responsible for their guns? Taking that supposition further, we could then identify the 1% of the population who are prone to murder, and just pass a few laws aimed at preventing them from killing people. Then we could identify the potential thieves, rapists, etc., and just pass a few laws aimed at them.

You are using the NRA's false equivalency argument that ALL American gun owners are being targeted as "bad guys," and that is absolute ratfucking bullshit -- and I suspect that you know that. ALL of our laws and regulations are only aimed at those who are anti-social and irresponsible. Duly reviewed, and legislated laws and regulations are NOT aimed at responsible US citizens, but at those who would violate them. Many "responsible" American gun owners, as evidenced by recent polls, are in favor of increased regulation and oversight of firearms in this country -- contrary to what you and the NRA would have us believe.

Public opinion is rapidly moving toward sensible gun control, and you and Uncle Wayne can do little to stop it beside ranting and raving about meaningless statistics and endlessly quoting NRA slogans. DU gun control advocates are not bigots as you proclaim, but are striving to bring some semblance of order to the run away and senseless proliferation of lethal weapons on our streets. It is NOT about the Second Amendment -- it is about a serious health issue, and it CAN be addressed just like we have reduced deaths and suffering caused by smoking and drunk driving.

Kids die every year from people who have swimming pools - but who 'needs' them???

My brother-in-law does not need a gun (except for hunting) - but he enjoys target shooting much like some enjoy swimming.

I don't own a gun myself, but if I did I would use it for things like shooting cans and clay pigeons - because it can be fun.

The intended purpose of a gun is to hit a target. And to kill for food. For self defense. Pools are for nothing but swimming in and no one needs them for anything, they simply want them to enjoy them.

Cars are destroying our environment day in and out. We have climate change that is killing more than anything else and yet people use them all the time to just run down the street for a beer or loaf of bread. Our entire planet is being affected by people who can't live without their cars to drive them to a movie they don't really need to see.

But that's ok - since it is something we on the left do it is OK. Less than 1% of people who own guns cause issues, so let's focus on them instead.

Alcohol leads to domestic abuse, child abuse, many crimes, but hey - let's focus on something else.

Humankind has been killing each other en masse since we have been in existence - but let's blame guns for it all and when others don't let's rip them...because we don't give a shit about the root causes, just ways to give the few in power more power over us and spend all day blaming each other and peddling fear of one another.

If your biggest fear is guns and your fellow citizen owning one then I don't know what to tell you - pass some more laws and feel better about yourself, all the while the real issues that are bringing us down will get sidelined.

But at least you will 'feel' better.

IIRC almost 250 kids under the age of 5 drown in residential pools (private home pools). We are not talking about banning all pools, that would be silly, but no one needs their own pool at their house. Plenty of kids grow up without one. If a kid or anyone wants to swim they can go to a public pool- where there are lifeguards on duty to supervise all the swimmers. Isn't that very very minor inconvenience worth it to save the lives of 250 kids a year?

Then we should ban all citizens from having it and only trust our government employed citizens like bush and cheney with it.

My daughter is outside right now on some roller skates with her friend. I probably should take them from her because she could get hurt on them. Kids on roller skates are more likely to fall down and get hurt than kids who are not on them.

She does not need them, but enjoys them. And her enjoying something that could possibly injure her is probably a bad decision. She should stay in the house on the computer and watching TV where I know she will be safe - plus, what if someone in a car comes by and hits her (people drive drunk, on meds, could have a heart attack, etc)?

I didn't say anything about needing things. I'm saying that the purpose of a gun is to kill. To destroy life. And you are trying to minimize fatalities because they are statistically minute TO YOU. Show some sensitivity to others.
The intended purpose of a gun is to hit a target. Yeah, to kill it.
And to kill for food. Again, killing.
For self defense. To kill or threaten to kill.

So does a pool having a "nicer" recreational purpose make all those accidental deaths a-okay? Do you think if you told a parent of a kid who drowned that "it's not that bad, pools are not designed to kill people" that would make it all better?

If you are truly a child safety advocate then you will support restricting pools to community parks/centers where there are lifeguards and other supervising adults. You will also support laws that prohibit unsecured alcohol and medication storage.

Guns in the home in my mind are no more dangerous to kids than swimming pools, medication, chemicals, and many other household items. In the hands of an unsupervised child use of any of the above items can have deadly consequences. It is up to the parent to ensure that children cannot access these items without supervision. The overwhelming amount of parents succeed at this.

we want to make laws to prohibit choice. If the parents didn't have a choice then such things would not happen.

Some want to remove choice (except in one case, abortion..then suddenly people care about choice) because of what happens in rare instances (rare in this case is less than 1%).

Choice and freedom - we hate it, but then complain when it is taken away after we beg some old white guys in Washington to take it away from us.

if we are to live in a "free" society then we will have to live with the occasional "bad decision". We reduce this by increasing education and awareness of certain dangers. It is not fool proof though

privilege of owning guns. They'd like them registered and regulated, and you know it.

Very few people here think it's conceivable to eliminate gun ownership- fuck it's not even possible to increase the level of a gun owner's responsibility-which is what we are in favor of- precisely because this over heated rhetoric about people wanting to take away all the guns that these MORONS cling to.

What a fucking pant load. Keep cutting and pasting the canned NRA propaganda, we've all laughed at it before.

People are already held responsible for what they do with guns.

Most states have background checks, some don't include mental health for a variety of reasons including funding and privacy (takes a lot of work to take old records and get them entered).

So tell me what law you would pass, how it would be paid for and enforced, that would make that less than 1% of gun owners suddenly change and obey the law?

Take the story this last week of the 5-year-old gun owner who killed his sister.

If people were held responsible for what they do with guns, the parents would be getting charged with negligent homicide - since the kid was 5, the parents were the legal gun owners.

Instead, there's no charges.

Happens over and over again where people are not punished for gun "accidents" that are completely foreseeable and easily preventable.

But you know, we'd all be commies like Europe and Australia if they weren't out there!!

it is a federal crime to obliterate a seriel number

Tracing it involves all the steps after the initial purchase.

...some folks who have chosen the blue pill and not the red.

do you mean like holding gun owners responsible for their direct actions (like shooting someone)?- isn't that already done?

Or do you mean "responsibility" as in holding gun owners accountable for others actions?- this the responsibility that most pro-gun control folks are talking about. It's not actually about making gun owners "responsible" but about making it as dangerous as possible to be a gun owner. Question, a person who accidently leaves their garage door open at night has his car stolen and later on the car gets into an accident- should we hold him responsible for the actions of the criminal/driver?

what do you want gun owners responsible for?

You seem to have an no excuse for answering a simple question

because the talking points are exactly THAT scripted. You will have to fling your propaganda to someone who hasn't heard it all before.

They kill by side-effect. Same with cars, knives, 4 wheelers and lawn darts.

The purpose of handguns is to kill people. Even activities like target shooting are just simulated killing.

As for this:

than baseball is.

I find it interesting you say a purpose of a knife isn't to kill either. I'm curious, what is the purpose of a concealable switch blade knife? In case the restaurant ran out of utensils?

So recreational swimming is more important than children's lives?

So it's not about shooting people, they just frequently use people-shaped targets......just for fun?

Never even crossed my mind, or anyone else's, to blame the gun. He was stupid not to be careful. He reached into his glove compartment from across the car to get out his loaded pistol and shot himself in the hand. He was careless. Guns are things. They don't want to kill anyone or get angry or talk people into being careless or getting drunk. That's what people do, not things.

But reasonable gun control is fine. This latest legislation seemed reasonable. Not effective, maybe, but reasonable. What SHOULD be passed is outlaw of assault weapons and definitely high count mags.

So great example, lets make guns as accessible as lawn darts.

RL

But its gun deaths are significantly lower. I can go between each country without a passport (I live in the UK, but bring my passport just in case).

when you compare the numbers to drownings! Maybe we shouldn't sell fear of murder. Murder is, after all, incidental compare with death in general. Let's legalize it!

If that is the actual figure. I have seen people say 80 million or 100 million. Whatever the number, you are right, it needs to be greatly reduced. We need much stronger regulations.

I can't believe how many times you post this same old shit. It's truly frightening how little of a shit you give about the tens of thousands of people who die every year because of guns. Skirting the issue by pointing go pool deaths or bug spray deaths or car deaths does not do you any favors. We are talking about GUNS and YOU DON'T GIVE A FUCK about those deaths because YOU LOVE YOUR GUNS.

Imagine if there was an idiotic "right" in the constitution to have a pool, or drive a car in any way you want, how ever fast you want, or to not have any standards whatsoever about household chemicals. Imagine how many MORE deaths there would be from all these other things if there were no REGULATIONS, no LAWS in place.

But you keep on making invalid comparisons, apples and oranges, because you can't get past the fact that in Japan, they have 0 to 8 gun deaths a year. In Canada, they have maybe 100 or so. In the UK, they have about 30. STOP IGNORING THE FACTS.

Yes, indeed! Marijuana does not kill kids, but guns do.

Something's definitely wrong with this picture. It might have been painted by Wayne LaPierre.



ETA: lil wanye's last name

but use of it might inhibit judgement and lead to a fatal decision (such as driving, crossing the road without looking,..etc). Is that a-okay?

If you are truly for "the children" you should be supportive of strict drug legislation, strict alcohol regulation, strict medication and household chemical storage regulation, and many other things that could save lives.

For example, we should raise the drinking age to 25 (human brain development doesnt mature until then), require locked storage of alcohol in the home if there are children present.

After being shot by her 13 year old brother in the next thread. Damn

... the song by Steve Earle, originally released on Copperhead Road.

Whatever the tragedy, there's always an excuse. We only walked away for moment...then we heard a shot...we didn't know there was cartridge left in the gun...we refilled our drink...came back out and the child was floating face down in the pool...

There's obviously an evolutionary advantage for denial of responsibility, at least in humans, it is ubiquitous. The punchline in Steve's song gives us the best excuse of all: The devil's right hand.

Well I get into a card game in a company town
Caught a miner cheating and I shot the dog down
Shot the dog down, watched the man fall
Never touched his holster, never had a chance to draw
The trial was in the morning and they drug me out of bed
Asked me how I pleaded, not guilty I said
Not guilty I said, you've got the wrong man
Nothing touched the trigger but the devil's right hand

The devil's right hand, the devil's right hand
Mama said the pistol is the devil's right hand
The devil's right hand, the devil's right hand
Nothing touched the trigger but the devil's right hand